I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
There are a number of reasons why you are conflicted and the ones you mention would indicate that although you believe the bible is special there is too many things in it that are unbelievable. So, has it ever occurred to you to read the bible as metaphor and allegory instead of literal? It was never meant to be taken literally. If you listen to fundamentalists you are bound to get confused because they really don't understand the purpose for it being written the way it is. Taken literally, it is no more than a fairy tale.

One thing I've noticed all these Bible thumpers have in common is their rigidity, they just keep hammering away at the same thing. Intelligent people consider other's views and fine tune their opinions over time to become better informed and open to learning something. :smile:
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Since only a minor percent of mankind is supposed to survive the judgment does that not fit in 'properly' compared to most agreeing on what it said and then losing that faith just before the end so the ratio can be fulfilled. It would seem to be 'kinder' to have most in confusion and increase that number to fit the final prophecised ratio.

One thing I've noticed all these Bible thumpers have in common is their rigidity, they just keep hammering away at the same thing. Intelligent people consider other's views and fine tune their opinions over time to become better informed and open to learning something. :smile:
Would saying 'freezing rain at higher elevations' cure the water/gravity conflict in that the 'rain at higher elevations' stayed there for 150 days after the rain stopped? How much fine tuning can 24 passages give to the term 'day of the Lord'?

Ge:7:20:
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Since only a minor percent of mankind is supposed to survive the judgment does that not fit in 'properly' compared to most agreeing on what it said and then losing that faith just before the end so the ratio can be fulfilled. It would seem to be 'kinder' to have most in confusion and increase that number to fit the final prophecised ratio.


Would saying 'freezing rain at higher elevations' cure the water/gravity conflict in that the 'rain at higher elevations' stayed there for 150 days after the rain stopped? How much fine tuning can 24 passages give to the term 'day of the Lord'?

Ge:7:20:
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.
Classic example of literalists confusing the issue. The amount of mental gymnastics necessary to justify a literalist belief are astronomical. Mhz is a gold metalist.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,666
113
Northern Ontario,
So, once again I am soliciting feedback from any mature, civilized Christian who is willing to read what I've posted, examine my concerns, and respond with a desire to explore the issues in a meaningful way.

A few words for you to remember in your quest....see Proverbs 23:9 :smile:
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Classic example of literalists confusing the issue. The amount of mental gymnastics necessary to justify a literalist belief are astronomical. Mhz is a gold metalist.
Saying it 'snowed' is enough to confuse you? Could you survive today if it started snowing and 40 days later it was 22ft deep and stayed that way for another 150 days before it started to melt that somebody could survive. Not even if they could prepare for it.

There's only so much water....
To cover the land with 22ft of water the ocean levels would drop just over 5 ft. If the rains came from the ice caps the ocean wouldn't drop at all, it would be 5 ft higher a year later though. That isn't am 'ungodly' amount of water.

A person could always add the day is a 1,000 years to the year of the flood.
Ended in 2500BC

Began 1 year earlier, 360,000 years and it rained for 40 days and nights (40,000 years) and then the ice stayed for another 150,000 years and it began to melt over the next 170,000 years. Even if you took the flood as a parable the information would still have to be there somehow and mankind wasn't keeping records like that 300,000 years ago.
 
Last edited:

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Water doesn't stand still when it can run for the sea. I'm at 750 feet above sea level and I'm in a valley. Mt Everest is 29,029 feet high. Your book claims water covered the highest mountains. Literalists, eh?

There's only so much water....

BTW.... Here's one to make Alley's head do the Linda Blair thing:
http://www.saaid.net/islam/6.htm
 

Conflicted

New Member
Feb 6, 2012
14
0
1
There are a number of reasons why you are conflicted and the ones you mention would indicate that although you believe the bible is special there is too many things in it that are unbelievable. So, has it ever occurred to you to read the bible as metaphor and allegory instead of literal? It was never meant to be taken literally. If you listen to fundamentalists you are bound to get confused because they really don't understand the purpose for it being written the way it is. Taken literally, it is no more than a fairy tale.
I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.

Goldilocks and the Three Bears wasn't all symbolic either. :smile:
 

Conflicted

New Member
Feb 6, 2012
14
0
1
Goldilocks and the Three Bears wasn't all symbolic either. :smile:
See, this is an example of the frustration. I offered a serious, practical conflict which is difficult to resolve. You simply respond with something about Goldilocks.

It's difficult to find people who have the intellect or the sincerity for a serious discussion. Very frustrating. My search continues.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
I've seen bears!

And I've seen porridge!

See, this is an example of the frustration. I offered a serious, practical conflict which is difficult to resolve. You simply respond with something about Goldilocks.

It's difficult to find people who have the intellect or the sincerity for a serious discussion. Very frustrating. My search continues.

Quite often complex problems can be resolved by taking a look at simple comparisons! :smile:
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
11
Aether Island
Why would you expect different, if you fail to address the issues people raise? You simply want confirmation, not intelligent discourse. Your whining is dishonest.
 

Conflicted

New Member
Feb 6, 2012
14
0
1
Since only a minor percent of mankind is supposed to survive the judgment does that not fit in 'properly' compared to most agreeing on what it said and then losing that faith just before the end so the ratio can be fulfilled. It would seem to be 'kinder' to have most in confusion and increase that number to fit the final prophecised ratio.


Would saying 'freezing rain at higher elevations' cure the water/gravity conflict in that the 'rain at higher elevations' stayed there for 150 days after the rain stopped? How much fine tuning can 24 passages give to the term 'day of the Lord'?

Ge:7:20:
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.
You suggest that only a minor percent of the population is supposed to survive the judgement. I would agree that the Bible does seem to present that thesis. But that supposition undermines the entire Bible. Isn't God supposed to be omnipotent? If so, why does God's creation culminate in a catastrophic failure? Why does he lose more to Satan than he keeps? Why is He ultimately forced to destroy His original creation and start over with a new Heaven and a new Earth?

Why would you expect different, if you fail to address the issues people raise? You simply want confirmation, not intelligent discourse. Your whining is dishonest.
What issue did I fail to address?

And I've seen porridge!



Quite often complex problems can be resolved by taking a look at simple comparisons! :smile:
The Bible traces human lineage all the way back to Adam. So, are you saying that the lineage was real or symbolic? Can you understand what I'm asking?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
What issue did I fail to address?

Worse than that, you quickly dismiss analogies to enhance your understanding!

The Bible traces human lineage all the way back to Adam. So, are you saying that the lineage was real or symbolic? Can you understand what I'm asking?

The Bible lists a bunch of names supposedly connecting the time the Bible was written back to Adam. Let's say for sake of argument man has been on earth for a million years, that's about 30,000 generations, so using common sense I would say there is a few gaps in the lineage! :smile:
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
11
Aether Island
The Bible traces human lineage all the way back to Adam. So, are you saying that the lineage was real or symbolic? Can you understand what I'm asking?

It is neither real nor symbolic; it is myth. Why is that so difficult to understand? You dismiss Norse myths, but accept this one. Why?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.
Read this article about the possible finding of the garden of Eden. It clearly points to the metaphoric meaning in the biblical account. It may or may not have been a literal place but the rise and fall are over simplified in the biblical account to the point of making at a fireside story. I think one can deduce from this how the rest of the bible can be viewed as myth based on some reality, like a historical novel where the story is fiction based on historical fact: Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden? | Mail Online
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.

Both of the things you have mentioned are also present in The Forsythe Saga.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
11
Aether Island
Why don't you point out, Cliffy, that there are two distinct creation myths in Genesis, written at different times by different authors and based on different interpretations of Middle Eastern tales?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Saying it 'snowed' is enough to confuse you? Could you survive today if it started snowing and 40 days later it was 22ft deep and stayed that way for another 150 days before it started to melt that somebody could survive. Not even if they could prepare for it.
I'm not confused at all. You are the one who is twisting things to fit your misguided interpretation of the myth. You are the one who is not only ignoring basic physics, but there is nowhere in the myth that says anything about snow or freezing rain. Be careful you don't hurt yourself twisting your mind into a pretzel with your convoluted thinking processes.