If you were the Governor General, what would you do?
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If I recall properly...
Bloc and NDP supported Conservatives to kick out Liberals and Paul Martin in 2005
CBC News Indepth: The 38th Parliament
Stockwell Day supposedly had an agreement with the Bloc in 2000 with the Conservatives.
globeandmail.com: Bloc part of secret coalition plot in 2000 with Canadian Alliance
And so the use of the Devil called the Bloc has come in handy for all parties.. It seems that when the Conservatives were in the last Parliament and wanted "propping up" on major issues they would turn to the Bloc for support.. Now the Bloc is the Weapon of mass destruction..
I really do believe Harper has brought this upon himself and will need to find a way out or suffer the consequences.. He has been playing the Bloc for all he can and now they have finally turned on him..
Bloc and NDP supported Conservatives to kick out Liberals and Paul Martin in 2005
CBC News Indepth: The 38th Parliament
Stockwell Day supposedly had an agreement with the Bloc in 2000 with the Conservatives.
globeandmail.com: Bloc part of secret coalition plot in 2000 with Canadian Alliance
And so the use of the Devil called the Bloc has come in handy for all parties.. It seems that when the Conservatives were in the last Parliament and wanted "propping up" on major issues they would turn to the Bloc for support.. Now the Bloc is the Weapon of mass destruction..
I really do believe Harper has brought this upon himself and will need to find a way out or suffer the consequences.. He has been playing the Bloc for all he can and now they have finally turned on him..
As they and the PQ have said before, they're waiting for the "right conditions". The party is a federal conflict of interest. I'm personally tired of the eastern political greed that has historically been set upon this country. This is a power grab to re-centralize to the tradional few small eastern pockets.
Like the Bloc is to Quebecers, I suppose this will mean that Conservatives are the only party for westerners. Today I ran into a guy who has always voted NDP. We're in a traditionally high NDP supported community. If his opinion reflects how others might feel about this, the NDP days might be numbered. He intends to vote Conservative next time. I personally have never been loyal to anyone, but I will take the same approach as QC does with its affairs and loyally vote Conservative from now on. And if we hold our own referendum with the "right conditions" I might throw my support for it too.
Like the Bloc is to Quebecers, I suppose this will mean that Conservatives are the only party for westerners. Today I ran into a guy who has always voted NDP. We're in a traditionally high NDP supported community. If his opinion reflects how others might feel about this, the NDP days might be numbered. He intends to vote Conservative next time. I personally have never been loyal to anyone, but I will take the same approach as QC does with its affairs and loyally vote Conservative from now on. And if we hold our own referendum with the "right conditions" I might throw my support for it too.
I don't understand all this talk of changing party loyalties over this mess. Whatever on earth for? I can honestly not see where one party or one leader has conducted themselves with any more or less integrity towards the citizens of Canada throughout this.
I do think Harper started this round of hostilities with a pretty blatant shot that still shocks me with it's audacity. BUT, I don't like what the 3 opposition leaders are up to either. No doubt Harper needed to be tuned in - stopped even - but the motivations at play here from the Coalition are the wrong ones. They're fighting AGAINST Harper, not FOR Canada - and Harper, well, he's just fighting for Harper as far as I can see.
In attempting to blindside the democratic process by pulling the financial rug out from under the very opposition that ensures democracy is served, Harper also tried to yank that rug right out from every single Canadian - adding insult to injury by not even trying to be clever in his attempt to disguise whose agenda he was serving.
His plan to cut their funding was tantamount to handing the other parties an early Christmas present with a card saying "here ya go boyz... the instrument of my demise... use it well" And oh ya...those boyz did just that: the mileage they've wrung out of that bullying blunder, which in turn is providing all kinds of yummy fodder for Harper to spin and spew more BS at us ... yep, the vengeance is thick now... thick and slimy and some really bad kinda nasty.
The whole lot of them piss me off. I suspect, and I hope that what I'm reading over the last few days from normally rational people as they react and respond is due in large part to also being right choked at what this band of buffoons is trying to pull off here.
I think we're so flabberghasted by this unholy mess we're standing here with our jaws agape - dumbfounded with disbelief and PISSED OFF. We've only JUST came out of 6 weeks of fugly campaigning tactics (including that insufferable blue sweater gakkk!) .... only to be bitch slapped with THIS now?
We need to figure out how we can force the parties to produce some leadership, accountability, and some policies we can get behind rather than succumbing to this helpless 'over a barrel' feeling of having to try and figure out which evil is the lesser - 'cause none of 'em are lesser! So don't bother switching teams just yet - the uniforms may be different but the play book sure isn't.
Too bad we don't have a "Loss of Confidence in the Whole Damn Parliament" clause in our constitution, cause now would be a good time to purge the freaks and start over.
I do think Harper started this round of hostilities with a pretty blatant shot that still shocks me with it's audacity. BUT, I don't like what the 3 opposition leaders are up to either. No doubt Harper needed to be tuned in - stopped even - but the motivations at play here from the Coalition are the wrong ones. They're fighting AGAINST Harper, not FOR Canada - and Harper, well, he's just fighting for Harper as far as I can see.
In attempting to blindside the democratic process by pulling the financial rug out from under the very opposition that ensures democracy is served, Harper also tried to yank that rug right out from every single Canadian - adding insult to injury by not even trying to be clever in his attempt to disguise whose agenda he was serving.
His plan to cut their funding was tantamount to handing the other parties an early Christmas present with a card saying "here ya go boyz... the instrument of my demise... use it well" And oh ya...those boyz did just that: the mileage they've wrung out of that bullying blunder, which in turn is providing all kinds of yummy fodder for Harper to spin and spew more BS at us ... yep, the vengeance is thick now... thick and slimy and some really bad kinda nasty.
The whole lot of them piss me off. I suspect, and I hope that what I'm reading over the last few days from normally rational people as they react and respond is due in large part to also being right choked at what this band of buffoons is trying to pull off here.
I think we're so flabberghasted by this unholy mess we're standing here with our jaws agape - dumbfounded with disbelief and PISSED OFF. We've only JUST came out of 6 weeks of fugly campaigning tactics (including that insufferable blue sweater gakkk!) .... only to be bitch slapped with THIS now?
We need to figure out how we can force the parties to produce some leadership, accountability, and some policies we can get behind rather than succumbing to this helpless 'over a barrel' feeling of having to try and figure out which evil is the lesser - 'cause none of 'em are lesser! So don't bother switching teams just yet - the uniforms may be different but the play book sure isn't.
Too bad we don't have a "Loss of Confidence in the Whole Damn Parliament" clause in our constitution, cause now would be a good time to purge the freaks and start over.
My understanding is, the public financial support of political parties isn't something Canadians have traditionally funded or supported. This is a relatively new scheme and probably ushered in through a majority Liberal government in the 90's.
Yes, it was very insulting to me as a Canadian citizen to listen to the tripe coming out of their mouths this evening. Harper so condescending in his tone, Dion chomping at the bit to control the reins of power, Layton acting in his I-told-you-so attitude and Duceppe thumbing his nose at Canada to reaffirm his stance for Quebec only. Harper has the look of a deer caught in the headlights. It seems Nero is fiddling while Rome is burning. And if these posers don't get their act together soon, we're all going down in flames.
It's funny that Parliment is in such a cunundrum. A common enemy (like the Block Quebecios)is supposed to unite the nation not send them at each others throats.
If I was the GG I would tell the Liberals and NDP to form a new party and wait for the next election, provided of course that I am not bound by the law to entertain the Grits childish greed for power and Labour's contempt for thier natural born enemy the Torys.
If I was the GG I would tell the Liberals and NDP to form a new party and wait for the next election, provided of course that I am not bound by the law to entertain the Grits childish greed for power and Labour's contempt for thier natural born enemy the Torys.
Sir Francis,
Surely you don't believe that the Bloc was ever "with" the Conservative Party. From what I watched on television tonight, all these "old boys" have played in the sandbox on various occassions but this is the only time they actually took it this far and they've gone way too far. If you watched any of the chats on TV tonight, even the liberal reporters admitted that this coalition is already in trouble and to a person they all belive that Dion can't do the job even briefly.
What the GG needs to do is tell them to get out of the sandbox, say they are sorry, start the game again but this time with a lot more co-operation with each other. No more talk of a coalition. The election is over and the choice by the people was made. They all need to be sent to their rooms.
Zan-"I do think Harper started this round of hostilities with a pretty blatant shot that still shocks me with it's audacity. BUT, I don't like what the 3 opposition leaders are up to either."
I guess I must have been asleep when this fiasco first hit the news, so I guess I missed just what heinous thing it was that Harper did. Surely it wasn't withdrawing public funds supporting political parties. Are we not into tough times where belt tightening is necessary and realistic?
I guess I must have been asleep when this fiasco first hit the news, so I guess I missed just what heinous thing it was that Harper did. Surely it wasn't withdrawing public funds supporting political parties. Are we not into tough times where belt tightening is necessary and realistic?
Essentially Harpo , IMO, shot himself in the foot, opened the door for the opposition to oust him, wants to adjourn parliament and has put our GG into unchartered waters.
That happened in first five minutes of the opening session.
That's PO for you.
regards
scratch
That happened in first five minutes of the opening session.
That's PO for you.
regards
scratch
I don't understand all this talk of changing party loyalties over this mess. Whatever on earth for? I can honestly not see where one party or one leader has conducted themselves with any more or less integrity towards the citizens of Canada throughout this.
Zan, I don’t think all this talk is representative of population in general, it is well known that bloggers usually tend to be more extreme than the general population (after all, they feel strongly about their opinions, strongly enough to blog, the general population doesn’t).
And these bloggers, who claim that they supposedly voted Liberal or NDP and new are going to vote conservative forever, one really has to wonder if they haven’t been conservative supporters all along (anybody can say anything on internet; we have no way of verifying it).
Anyway, as to polls. The polls I have seen show that by a small majority, they don’t want to see Harper to be the PM (I assume just after the election, most Canadians wanted Harper to be the PM, I know I did). Again, a majority wants to see a coalition government. The only point where coalition was at a disadvantage was that about 70% people don’t want Dion as the PM. But on all other points, coalition has an edge over conservatives in opinion polls.
So at least as of now, people aren’t’ buying conservative rhetoric. And it really is astounding what conservatives are demanding. They are demanding that opposition parties be forced to vote for conservatives, keep voting for them no matter what they do. Well, in a democracy, you cannot force a party to vote one way or the other.
Harper has lost the trust of the Parliament. If opposition parties are forced to vote for Harper, expect him to bring back all the items which he has dropped off (get rid of public funding to political parties, ban unions from striking etc.). If opposition is forced to vote for the government, we wont’ have democracy any more, but a Zimbabwe type dictatorship for four years.
By proroguing the Parliament, Harper is buying himself more time, prolonging the inevitable, nothing more. Contrary to what Conservatives think, in our democracy, we do not force the opposition parties to vote for the government. If Parliament is prorogued, we will have a dictator anyway, a Prime minister with no support from the Parliament.
Zan, I don’t think all this talk is representative of population in general, it is well known that bloggers usually tend to be more extreme than the general population (after all, they feel strongly about their opinions, strongly enough to blog, the general population doesn’t).
And these bloggers, who claim that they supposedly voted Liberal or NDP and new are going to vote conservative forever, one really has to wonder if they haven’t been conservative supporters all along (anybody can say anything on internet; we have no way of verifying it).
Anyway, as to polls. The polls I have seen show that by a small majority, they don’t want to see Harper to be the PM (I assume just after the election, most Canadians wanted Harper to be the PM, I know I did). Again, a majority wants to see a coalition government. The only point where coalition was at a disadvantage was that about 70% people don’t want Dion as the PM. But on all other points, coalition has an edge over conservatives in opinion polls.
So at least as of now, people aren’t’ buying conservative rhetoric. And it really is astounding what conservatives are demanding. They are demanding that opposition parties be forced to vote for conservatives, keep voting for them no matter what they do. Well, in a democracy, you cannot force a party to vote one way or the other.
Harper has lost the trust of the Parliament. If opposition parties are forced to vote for Harper, expect him to bring back all the items which he has dropped off (get rid of public funding to political parties, ban unions from striking etc.). If opposition is forced to vote for the government, we wont’ have democracy any more, but a Zimbabwe type dictatorship for four years.
By proroguing the Parliament, Harper is buying himself more time, prolonging the inevitable, nothing more. Contrary to what Conservatives think, in our democracy, we do not force the opposition parties to vote for the government. If Parliament is prorogued, we will have a dictator anyway, a Prime minister with no support from the Parliament.
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"By proroguing the Parliament, Harper is buying himself more time, prolonging the inevitable, nothing more. Contrary to what Conservatives think, in our democracy, we do not force the opposition parties to vote for the government. If Parliament is prorogued, we will have a dictator anyway, a Prime minister with no support from the government. "- OR POSSIBLY giving everyone a chance to cool off and maybe reconsider and update their thinking. N.D.P. is not going to gain much by being part of this proposed coalition.
I don't understand all this talk of changing party loyalties over this mess. Whatever on earth for? I can honestly not see where one party or one leader has conducted themselves with any more or less integrity towards the citizens of Canada throughout this.
Zan, on canada.com forum, I had a name for such staunch, committed Harper supporters, people who think Harper can do no wrong. I used to call them Harper acolytes; they have a Messiah like faith in Harper.
And perhaps with good reason. Cons sat in opposition for almost half a generation (13 years), Harper delivered them from the wilderness of opposition and brought them to government. Then he was going to lead them to the Promised Land of majority.
Well, it is the fault of the opposition that Harper did not get the majority, so the argument goes that they should be forced to vote for Harper for four years anyway, no matter how he governs, no matter what he does.
But I think there is about 15 to 20% population which regards Harper as the Messiah, to them, Harper can do no wrong. If Harper says that the sun rises in the west, this crew will nod their head solemnly.
I must say to the credit of conservative leaders, they can inspire a Messiah like faith in their followers. Mulroney was the same way. Liberals leaders usually don't inspire such a faith. Trudeau did that to some extent, but nowhere near as much as Mulroney or Harper do.
Zan, on canada.com forum, I had a name for such staunch, committed Harper supporters, people who think Harper can do no wrong. I used to call them Harper acolytes; they have a Messiah like faith in Harper.
And perhaps with good reason. Cons sat in opposition for almost half a generation (13 years), Harper delivered them from the wilderness of opposition and brought them to government. Then he was going to lead them to the Promised Land of majority.
Well, it is the fault of the opposition that Harper did not get the majority, so the argument goes that they should be forced to vote for Harper for four years anyway, no matter how he governs, no matter what he does.
But I think there is about 15 to 20% population which regards Harper as the Messiah, to them, Harper can do no wrong. If Harper says that the sun rises in the west, this crew will nod their head solemnly.
I must say to the credit of conservative leaders, they can inspire a Messiah like faith in their followers. Mulroney was the same way. Liberals leaders usually don't inspire such a faith. Trudeau did that to some extent, but nowhere near as much as Mulroney or Harper do.
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Sorry, JLM, I don’t think that will work, opposition members just don’t trust Harper any more. I saw on TV, a reporter talked to some Liberal MPs. They said that if they give in now, if they support Harper, at the first opportunity he will try to crush the opposition under his feet again, try to do the same stunt he pulled in the financial statement (get rid of public funding for political parties etc.).
I don’t see how opposition can support Harper after all that has happened. Indeed, I would argue that opposition should form a coalition now no matter what Harper says or does. Defeat him over the budget if necessary, form a coalition and govern for 18 months. Let the people compare Harper rule (and it is not really a conservative rule, it is a dictatorial Harper rule) with coalition rule and let people make up their mind at next election.
Let us face it; Harper is totally unsuitable to lead a minority government. He is at his best when he is being a dictator, when he is loudly proclaiming, his way or highway. That may work in a majority situation, but does not work in minority situation.
Too bad. If you want to change the rules of governance perhaps we should have started with the minority government.
Held an election then and said "All your vote splitting has given the Tories the most seats, lets have a re-election and see if you want to change your vote"
But thats not the way it works. Harper had no problem with the system when it let a right wing party with less than half the seats and a third of the vote claim it should rule in the place of left wing parties with more than half the seats and 2/3rds of the vote.
He can't complain now that that same system, the only one that put him in any kind of power in the first place, is taking it back.
He lost the election, he needs to quit crying and accept he lost.
Or, he can offer to form his own coalition with his own MP's.
In 2005 he had not problem siding with the Bloc and forming an alliance with "Dirty seperatists" against the Liberals, even talked of forming a Coalition.
Perhaps he should have gone that route now rather than alienating them.
"Let us face it; Harper is totally unsuitable to lead a minority government. He is at his best when he is being a dictator, when he is loudly proclaiming, his way or highway. That may work in a majority situation, but does not work in minority situation. "- I think you make a good point there, nevertheless, do you think Dion is a better choice? or more capable of governing in a minority situation? - that's what it's going to boil down to as the most they are going to get from the Bloc is temporary lip service part of the time.
JLM, I think Dion will be better in a minority situation than Harper. Dion is less combative, more prone to compromise, cooperation. He has to be, if he is going to survive governing the coalition. Even in the opposition, he has been emphasizing cooperation, team effort with Ignatieff, Rae etc.
And anyway, Dion will be gone in a few months. As to Bloc, my understanding is that the coalition has worked out an agenda. If they stick to the agenda and don’t try to improvise, they probably should be OK for year and a half.
Anyway, it is quite possible that by his trashing of Québec, Harper may have done permanent harm to federalism, he may have promoted Québec separatism big time. I understand PQ is gaining in the polls for the last few days, since Harper started his campaign against Quebec.
And anyway, Dion will be gone in a few months. As to Bloc, my understanding is that the coalition has worked out an agenda. If they stick to the agenda and don’t try to improvise, they probably should be OK for year and a half.
Anyway, it is quite possible that by his trashing of Québec, Harper may have done permanent harm to federalism, he may have promoted Québec separatism big time. I understand PQ is gaining in the polls for the last few days, since Harper started his campaign against Quebec.