Harper stands firm on human rights in china

[Machjo]

The US doesn't approve of Ontario's religious laws, so it'll be perfectly free to just send in the troops?

 

[Machjo]

OK, fair enough. If Harper wants to criticize China publicly, it is well within the restrictions of international law, and so well within his right.

As a diplomat though, he shouldn't satisfy himself simply with the most restrictive letter of the law and aim a little higher than that and be more diplomatic, no?

Strictly speaking, Charles de Gaules had every right to say Vive le Quebec libre while on visit to Quebec. But I'm sure you can agree that it certainly didn't help Canada-France relations under him now did it? So yes, there was no law against it, but it still wasn't a wise move in terms of Canada-France relations. Do you honestly believe that Harper's speech in Shanghai helped Canada-China relations at all?

Now let's say Charles de Gaules had instead talked to the Canadian PM privately about his wish for Quebec to become independent, or had his ambassador at the UN argue the case on legitimate legal or human rights grounds of some kind, let the UN make the final decision, and then drop the issue once he sees the UN wasn't interested. Would that not have been ore respectful?

Now as it turns out, de Gaule had supposedly been misunderstood, whereby when he siad a Free Quebec, he did not necessarily mean free from Canada. It was intended in a non-political sense of the word free. Regardless of his intended meaning, the misunderstanding caused was enough to cause the damage.

Now imagine harper in Shanghai speaking through interpretors to Chinese businessmen. At least de Gaule was speaking in French to a French-speaking audience. How much more of a misunderstanding could be caused through interpretors in Shanghai! I may not be illegal, but certainly not diplomatic. So, what do you think of de gaule's comments in Quebec?

 

[Machjo]

Let's just take another example here. I believe abortion is essentially murder, but the law says otherwise. So do I have the right to take the law into my own hands and punish the abortionist by killing him on his way home one evening because I think it's the right thing to do?

If we way any country can invade another because it thinks it's the right thing to do, then killing the abortionist is the right thing to do too.

If, however, you believe that Canada should let the UN deal with international issue regardless of our own opinions, then it's like saying that while I can vote or start a petition, until the law is changed I ought to abide by the current decision that abortion is legal.

So, should I go out and kill the abortionist and take the law into my own hands, or should I respect the law of the land and simply try to change it by legal means?

 

[Ron in Regina]

This Thread seems to be being dragged off-topic for no real reason....

 

[Ron in Regina]

The Thread Topic is "Harper stands firm on human rights in China".....

 

[Nuggler]

They have sex shops now. I mean, what more could the people ask for?

Actual sex?:lol:

 

[Said1]

Given their present population, they're obviously doing something right. They're just not sure what that is, exactly. :lol:

Actually, they're a good idea. The stores sell more than dildos and blow up dolls, they also educate and promote pregnancy prevention, safe sex and provide literature and 'talks' about the spread of STDs, especially HIV/AIDS.

 

[earth_as_one]

BALONEY!!!!!!!! Harper does not support torture, Harper does not support war crimes, Harper does not support crimes against humanity.....to say Harper has no "moral authority to lecture the Chinese on human Rights is no less than idiotic.

Carleton University (hardly an epicentre of right-wing thought) ranks the world's nations on human rights. The lower the score, the better the Human Rights Record.........let's see how your hero nations fare.......

North Korea is the worst nation on earth, with a ranking of 8.73.
Canada, thankfully, is very near the top, with a ranking of 1.97
The USA has a ranking of 2.64
Israel has a not so good rating of 4.33
Iran, not surprizingly, has a ranking of 8.09.
But China tops even that, with a ranking of 8.39.

Country Ranking Table 2007 Rights

The largest nation on earth, with one quarter of the world's population.....has the fourth worst record of respecting human rights........and you have the unmitigated gall to contend that the leader of one of the very best nations on earth has no "moral authority" to challenge political enslavement of a quarter of the earth's population?????? Insane.

The Chinese are our enemies. Get it straight, In the same way that Nazi Germany was in the 1930s....the clash with China is inevitable, if we intend to bother defending our way of life. Meanwhile, like idiots, we continue to "sell them the rope to hang us with"

The Chinese have probably murdered 40,000 Falun Gong for their organs.
CBC News - Canada - China harvesting Falun Gong organs, report alleges

Just to give you a hint of what you are supporting when you do your lovely little tourist trips.

I won't bother lecturing you on Tianamen Square, the murder of religious leaders, the imprisonment of people simply for their religious belief, the torture of dissidents, the massacre and repression in Tibet, the removal of organs from the condemned, often before they are executed, the tolerance of slavery, the sabre-rattling over Taiwan, and on and on.

After all, you couldn't care less....I mean, it's not like the Chinese are Israeli or anything.........:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:

I've been busy.

FYI

China has about 1.338 billion people or about 20% of the earth's population. China has suffered centuries of war, famine and disease and recently has emerged as relatively peaceful and stable. The country has many problems, but Colpy is exaggerating the situation and portraying historical events as recent. (Similar to the US claims about Iraq's WMDs in the 1980's being used to support an invasion 20 years later)

In 1945, China defeated the Japanese, ending a war which killed about 20 million civilians. In 1949, the Communists overthrew the Nationalists ending a civil war which also killed millions of people. The great famine of 1958-61 resulted in about 36 million deaths. Various purges and reforms during the 1950's and 60's also contributed to millions and possibly tens of millions of deaths from various causes.

Since the 1960's, China has experienced 40 years of relatively little violence, famine or disease which had plagued this country for centuries. China's leaders instituted a series of reforms designed to allow more personal and financial freedom. Progress has been slow, but devoid of major upheaval and instability. For the most part these reforms do not address issues related to political freedom or the criminal justice system, both of which desperately need a major overhaul.

In 1989, (over twenty years ago) over a million Chinese (mostly young people and students) showed up to demonstrate in support of political and economic reforms. When the Chinese government finally cracked down, hundreds (best estimate 400-800 or 0.0000004% of the population) were killed and several thousand injured. Thousands more arrested.

Ten years ago, 10,000 falun gong practioners surrounded the Chinese Communist Party HQ and made a series of demands including replacing the "corrupt" Chinese government with falun gong practitioners. As a result of this incident and others like it, the Chinese government declared falun gong retroactively illegal and arrested many of its leaders. As far as I can determine, none of these people were executed and none had their organs harvested as per unsubstantiated allegations. Over the years, tens of thousands of falun gong practioners have been arrested during public demonstrations. Sentences range from fines to years/decades in prison. China's prison system is harsh and several falun gong practitioners have died in prison, possibly as a result of torture and abuse. China has only succeeded in driving the practice underground and tens of millions Chinese probably still observe it secretly.

Slavery is illegal in China, but in 2007, the Chinese police rescued more than 217 people including 29 children working as slaves in a brick factory. Similar reports in other areas indicate that hundreds of people have been been kidnapped and forced to work as slaves for years at various mines and factories. None of these activities are legal in China and the Chinese government has vowed to fight human trafficking and slavery.

China lacks many of the basic freedoms, Canadians take for granted. Their political system consists of only the Comunist party. Political opposition exists in secret. People who peacefully push for political reform and their family members face harassment, house arrest, arbitrary detention, torture and abuse.

In 2008, China excuted about 1700 people convicted of capital crimes by firing squad or lethal injection. The Chinese government is known to harvest the organs of executed prisoners without consent.

I disagree with capital punishment, but to put this in perspective, Saudi Arabia with (population: 25 million) executed about 140 people mostly by public beheading or stoning. If Saudia Arabia had the same population as China, that would scale up to about 7560 executions. In 1999, (George W. Bush was govenor of Texs) the US executed 98 people. (a peak year). If the US had the same popution as China that year would scale up to about 482 execution by similar methods as the Chinese.

In 1949, communist China invaded and occupied East Turkestan. Since then, the main ethnic group, Uighurs have pressed for independance, leading to arrests and conviction for treason. (A capital crime). This region was loosely controlled by various Chinese warlords for centuries.

Tibet has a history of being invaded and occupied by China. Tibet regained its independence in 1912 after about two centuries of Chinese domination. In 1950, China re-occupied Tibet. Tibetans pushing for independence face arrest, torture and possibly death sentences for treason. In 2008, China arrested hundreds/thousands of Tibetans violently protesting China's occupation. Probably dozens to hundreds died during the fighting.

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/88471-harper-stands-firm-human-rights-4.html#post1184741

 

[earth_as_one]

The evidence is pretty overwhelming now that the Harper government was well aware that Afghan's picked up by Canadian soldiers and turned over to local authorities were routinely abused/tortured.

The Harper government has an obligation to intervene on behalf of all Canadians abused and tortured in foreign prisons including 15 year old child soldier Omar Khadr.

China isn't our enemy. Most of their attention is focused inward like the US. Most Chinese barely know about Canada's existence. The little they do know about Canada seems related to Dr. Bethune.

Any civil war or famine in China could easily result in millions of deaths. As a result they are cautious about instituting major reforms or radical change. They tried that in the 1950's and 60's to catastrophic results.

 

[TenPenny]

Most Chinese barely know about Canada's existence

That's a silly statement.

 

[weaselwords]

That's a silly statement.

Not really there's 1.4B of them many are uneducated illiterates who's biggest concern is living day to day, a country half way around the world probably has little interest to them unless its the USA.
Would a Chinese immigrant care to jump in and give us the lodown

 

[TenPenny]

Not really there's 1.4B of them many are uneducated illiterates who's biggest concern is living day to day, a country half way around the world probably has little interest to them unless its the USA.
Would a Chinese immigrant care to jump in and give us the lodown

I'm basing my comment on my experiences this past summer in Shanghai, Hangzhou, Wuzhen, Nanchang, Beijing, Xi'An, and a few other places.

 

[weaselwords]

Your better qualified to comment, so consider mine in inabiyence . Thanks

 

[Colpy]

The evidence is pretty overwhelming now that the Harper government was well aware that Afghan's picked up by Canadian soldiers and turned over to local authorities were routinely abused/tortured.

The Harper government has an obligation to intervene on behalf of all Canadians abused and tortured in foreign prisons including 15 year old child soldier Omar Khadr.

China isn't our enemy. Most of their attention is focused inward like the US. Most Chinese barely know about Canada's existence. The little they do know about Canada seems related to Dr. Bethune.

Any civil war or famine in China could easily result in millions of deaths. As a result they are cautious about instituting major reforms or radical change. They tried that in the 1950's and 60's to catastrophic results.

The evidence is that Canada turned over ONE Afghan to the ANP, and when they observed him being beaten, they retrieved him from their allies, .......there IS NO OTHER evidence, just innuendo......that said, if you will look up my other posts on the matter, you will see I disapprove of turning Afghans over to local authorities....

You will also see that I agree Khadr should now be brought home, although I disagree that the courts should be dictating foreign policy.

The United States of America is our closest ally, a free nation, one of the best nations on earth.....as shown by the rating cited below. China is an emerging fascist super-power.........it is the fourth worst human rights abuser on earth. There will be an entity that projects its values, its way of life, and its military power far outside its own borders, there will be a dominant power in the world, and that power will express itself in the way of life of all the world's people. So it ha been since Alexander the Great, born in 357 BC..........

Thank God that power is the USA, and NOT China....the Americans share our values.......they have been overall a force for good in the world, China is a extremely negative influence in the world......the major backer of the Sudan, Robert Mugabe, North Korea......for these reasons America's competitors for world dominance are not only their enemies, but ours.

You view history like a man with his hand over his eyes........totally convinced that his fingers, at a range of a centimeter, are the only things that matter.....

 

[darkbeaver]

The United States of America is our closest ally, a free nation, one of the best nations on earth.....as shown by the rating cited below. China is an emerging fascist super-power.........it is the fourth worst human rights abuser on earth. There will be an entity that projects its values, its way of life, and its military power far outside its own borders, there will be a dominant power in the world, and that power will express itself in the way of life of all the world's people. So it ha been since Alexander the Great, born in 357 BC

Yes we are very close to the US geographically and in time we can hopefully build an unbridgeable distance in time and space between that rotten hole and our hopefully salvageable remnant of democracy. America is the premier failed state a bond slave of the BIS it will never be free again, ever. The next decade will see it broken and dissolved by protracted bloody civil war according to the bankers plan. The Americans are many trillions of dollars in debt. How anyone gets free from that is a mystery. Alexander the Grape was not born in 357 BC.

 

[earth_as_one]

TenPenny:

My son has been living in Shanghai China for over a year and just came back for the holidays. If I hadn't told him that Harper was in Shanghai, he wouldn't have known. In fact few of the 16 million people living in Shanghai were aware of Harper's visit or who he is.

In the overall scheme of what's important in China, Canada isn't very high on the list. If you traveled there as you claim, you'd know that. Most Chinese are focused on China. The few Chinese that do know something about Canada generally have a positive opinion about us. Certainly China isn't our enemy. The Chinese government wants good trade relations with Canada. They see Canada as an opportunity for wealth creation, which is how we should see them.

Harper has been foolish regarding China. They are our second biggest trading partner after the US and responsible for creating hundreds of thousands of jobs in Canada. In the not so distant future they could become our biggest trading partner. China deserves more attention than a trip once or twice a decade to criticize their improving human rights record.

Harper's criticism of China's human right's record would have carried more weight if he held all countries to the same standard he expects China to met.

China did not recently invade a country based on lies and misinformation resulting in over a million deaths. China is not currently denying food and medicine to millions of hungry and sick people as collective punishment. China is not accused of committing war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Harper supported US war crimes in Iraq and Israel's ongoing war crimes and crimes against humanity. These are two of the best known examples of Harper's record regarding human rights. I could have also mentioned Harper's silence regarding Saudi Arabia and Kuwait's human rights abuses or his lack of action regarding the Sudan and Darfur. Harper even congratulated the President of Afghanistan on his corrupt election win. I can name many other examples of Harper's support for or lack of criticism of human rights abuses far more grave than China's human rights problems.

Harper's record on human rights is so pathetic, he can't credibly criticise any nation's human's right record. His performance in China was weak and embarassing. Besides a mild rebuke for not giving China the attention they deserved, he was more or less ignored.

 

[Colpy]

Yes we are very close to the US geographically and in time we can hopefully build an unbridgeable distance in time and space between that rotten hole and our hopefully salvageable remnant of democracy. America is the premier failed state a bond slave of the BIS it will never be free again, ever. The next decade will see it broken and dissolved by protracted bloody civil war according to the bankers plan. The Americans are many trillions of dollars in debt. How anyone gets free from that is a mystery. Alexander the Grape was not born in 357 BC.

You are quite right DB, Alex was born in 356 BC....slip of the finger......not THAT one!

You know why Alex was called the Great don't you?

Because in 330 BC nobody had the balls to call him Alexander the Mediocre.

 

[Colpy]

TenPenny:

My son has been living in Shanghai China for over a year and just came back for the holidays. If I hadn't told him that Harper was in Shanghai, he wouldn't have known. In fact few of the 16 million people living in Shanghai were aware of Harper's visit or who he is.

In the overall scheme of what's important in China, Canada isn't very high on the list. If you traveled there as you claim, you'd know that. Most Chinese are focused on China. The few Chinese that do know something about Canada generally have a positive opinion about us. Certainly China isn't our enemy. The Chinese government wants good trade relations with Canada. They see Canada as an opportunity for wealth creation, which is how we should see them.

Harper has been foolish regarding China. They are our second biggest trading partner after the US and responsible for creating hundreds of thousands of jobs in Canada. In the not so distant future they could become our biggest trading partner. China deserves more attention than a trip once or twice a decade to criticize their improving human rights record.

Harper's criticism of China's human right's record would have carried more weight if he held all countries to the same standard he expects China to met.

China did not recently invade a country based on lies and misinformation resulting in over a million deaths. China is not currently denying food and medicine to millions of hungry and sick people as collective punishment. China is not accused of committing war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Harper supported US war crimes in Iraq and Israel's ongoing war crimes and crimes against humanity. These are two of the best known examples of Harper's record regarding human rights. I could have also mentioned Harper's silence regarding Saudi Arabia and Kuwait's human rights abuses or his lack of action regarding the Sudan and Darfur. Harper even congratulated the President of Afghanistan on his corrupt election win. I can name many other examples of Harper's support for or lack of criticism of human rights abuses far more grave than China's human rights problems.

Harper's record on human rights is so pathetic, he can't credibly criticise any nation's human's right record. His performance in China was weak and embarassing. Besides a mild rebuke for not giving China the attention they deserved, he was more or less ignored.

AHHH!!! So, supporting the Great Fascist Superpower runs in the family! 8O

This is a joke..."China is not accused of committing ......... crimes against humanity."

I guess murdering and yanking the internal organs out of 40,000 people because of their religious beliefs is not a "crime against humanity".

Keep talking, EAO, your crediblity sinks lower with every word.

China is one of the very worst Human Rights abusers on EARTH!!!!

China Human Rights | Reports, News Articles & Campaigns | Amnesty International

 

[earth_as_one]

I'm trying to move this discussion away from unsubstantiated hyperbole and insults to a fact based discussion. (I know that 's unlikely)

I followed Colpy's link related to his claims about China "murdering and yanking the internal organs out of 40,000 people because of their religious beliefs". Its based on telephone conversations with Chinese dissidents. In other words they are allegations not facts.

Amnesty international and other human rights organizations have investigated China's treatment of Falun Gong. I suggest you take a moment to read this investigative "fact based" report:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...f70-11dd-acaa-7d9091d4638f/asa170112000en.pdf

I agree that China has human rights problems and they deserve criticism. But Harper is hardly a human rights moral authority.

 

[JLM]

You are quite right DB, Alex was born in 356 BC....slip of the finger......not THAT one!

You know why Alex was called the Great don't you?

Because in 330 BC nobody had the balls to call him Alexander the Mediocre.

356 or 357 either one could be right or wrong- the calendar has been adjusted a few times over the years and who knows back in the dark ages that those assigned to keeping track of it didn't get drunk from time to time and didn't have a clue what day it was?