Harper stands firm on human rights in china
- Thread starter Avro
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I believe that change comes from within, be it a person or a country.
We get nowhere by trying to impose our standards, which are hardly perfect to begin with, on another country.
I was heartened to hear that more Chinese tourists will be coming to Canada, they will see with their own eyes what it is like to live in a country that values individual rights. Hopefully, they will take that knowledge back to China where they will talk to friends and neighbors about what they have seen and heard.
There are many people in China right now who are trying to change the system and who pay dearly for the price. I will not condemn an entire country when I know there are people who do not believe in communism.
But then, that's just my opinion. :canada:
We get nowhere by trying to impose our standards, which are hardly perfect to begin with, on another country.
I was heartened to hear that more Chinese tourists will be coming to Canada, they will see with their own eyes what it is like to live in a country that values individual rights. Hopefully, they will take that knowledge back to China where they will talk to friends and neighbors about what they have seen and heard.
There are many people in China right now who are trying to change the system and who pay dearly for the price. I will not condemn an entire country when I know there are people who do not believe in communism.
But then, that's just my opinion. :canada:
I plan to travel outside Shanghai. I know people who have travelled across China and they took lots of pictures without any problems. They said they saw lots of poverty. In general they described rural Chinese as curious about foreigners, happy and friendly. With the exception of a few remote sparsely populated areas, the Canadian government claims China is more or less safe.
If you compare the Canadian travel advisories for China with those for Israel and the occupied territories, its pretty obvious which is country safer:
Israel and the Occupied Territories:
Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip Travel Advice and Advisories | Government of Canada
China:
China Travel Advice and Advisories | Government of Canada
Have you ever been to Gaza? If you go, and you want to see what's really going on, try going to the area which the Israeli military bombed and razed. That`s pretty hard to miss, as that decribes most of Gaza. If you are in Gaza and want to travel outside Gaza, you may have difficulty getting past the landmines, razor wire and walls which imprison Gazans. But if you are able to get near the wall, its probably best advised not to take pictures especially of the soldiers on the other side of the razor wire. Also don't forget to bring your own food and water. Israel blocks these luxuries from entering Gaza. I suggest eating and drinking first before entering Gaza and leaving before you die of starvation and dehydradation. Also if you get sick, don`t expect medical help. All of Gaza`s hospitals have been bombed and Israel blocks medicine from entering Gaza.
If they let you???
In July, we went to Shanghai, Wuzhen, Hangzhou, Fujuo, Beijing, and Xi'An.
I think I took somewhere about 2500 shots all told. The only places we couldn't take pictures were in a couple of museums and in some temples.
Gaza is NOT an occupied territory, it has not been occupied for a long time. Get over it.
BTW, you are as safe in Israel (where everyone carries guns) as you are in Canada.........the murder rates in both nations are in the 1.8 per 100,000 range.
China, BTW, has a murder rate 25% higher than that........although it is still a very safe country.........
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China has about 1.338 billion people or about 20% of the earth's population. China has suffered centuries of war, famine and disease and recently has emerged as relatively peaceful and stable. The country has many problems, but Colpy is exaggerating the situation and portraying historical events as recent. (Similar to the US claims about Iraq's WMDs in the 1980's being used to support an invasion 20 years later)
In 1945, China defeated the Japanese, ending a war which killed about 20 million civilians. In 1949, the Communists overthrew the Nationalists ending a civil war which also killed millions of people. The great famine of 1958-61 resulted in about 36 million deaths. Various purges and reforms during the 1950's and 60's also contributed to millions and possibly tens of millions of deaths from various causes.
Since the 1960's, China has experienced 40 years of relatively little violence, famine or disease which had plagued this country for centuries. China's leaders instituted a series of reforms designed to allow more personal and financial freedom. Progress has been slow, but devoid of major upheaval and instability. For the most part these reforms do not address issues related to political freedom or the criminal justice system, both of which desperately need a major overhaul.
In 1989, (over twenty years ago) over a million Chinese (mostly young people and students) showed up to demonstrate in support of political and economic reforms. When the Chinese government finally cracked down, hundreds (best estimate 400-800 or 0.0000004% of the population) were killed and several thousand injured. Thousands more arrested.
Ten years ago, 10,000 falun gong practioners surrounded the Chinese Communist Party HQ and made a series of demands including replacing the "corrupt" Chinese government with falun gong practitioners. As a result of this incident and others like it, the Chinese government declared falun gong retroactively illegal and arrested many of its leaders. As far as I can determine, none of these people were executed and none had their organs harvested as per unsubstantiated allegations. Over the years, tens of thousands of falun gong practioners have been arrested during public demonstrations. Sentences range from fines to years/decades in prison. China's prison system is harsh and several falun gong practitioners have died in prison, possibly as a result of torture and abuse. China has only succeeded in driving the practice underground and tens of millions Chinese probably still observe it secretly.
Slavery is illegal in China, but in 2007, the Chinese police rescued more than 217 people including 29 children working as slaves in a brick factory. Similar reports in other areas indicate that hundreds of people have been been kidnapped and forced to work as slaves for years at various mines and factories. None of these activities are legal in China and the Chinese government has vowed to fight human trafficking and slavery.
China lacks many of the basic freedoms, Canadians take for granted. Their political system consists of only the Comunist party. Political opposition exists in secret. People who peacefully push for political reform and their family members face harassment, house arrest, arbitrary detention, torture and abuse.
In 2008, China excuted about 1700 people convicted of capital crimes by firing squad or lethal injection. The Chinese government is known to harvest the organs of executed prisoners without consent.
I disagree with capital punishment, but to put this in perspective, Saudi Arabia with (population: 25 million) executed about 140 people mostly by public beheading or stoning. If Saudia Arabia had the same population as China, that would scale up to about 7560 executions. In 1999, (George W. Bush was govenor of Texs) the US executed 98 people. (a peak year). If the US had the same popution as China that year would scale up to about 482 execution by similar methods as the Chinese.
In 1949, communist China invaded and occupied East Turkestan. Since then, the main ethnic group, Uighurs have pressed for independance, leading to arrests and conviction for treason. (A capital crime). This region was loosely controlled by various Chinese warlords for centuries.
Tibet has a history of being invaded and occupied by China. Tibet regained its independence in 1912 after about two centuries of Chinese domination. In 1950, China re-occupied Tibet. Tibetans pushing for independence face arrest, torture and possibly death sentences for treason. In 2008, China arrested hundreds/thousands of Tibetans violently protesting China's occupation. Probably dozens to hundreds died during the fighting.
In 1945, China defeated the Japanese, ending a war which killed about 20 million civilians. In 1949, the Communists overthrew the Nationalists ending a civil war which also killed millions of people. The great famine of 1958-61 resulted in about 36 million deaths. Various purges and reforms during the 1950's and 60's also contributed to millions and possibly tens of millions of deaths from various causes.
Since the 1960's, China has experienced 40 years of relatively little violence, famine or disease which had plagued this country for centuries. China's leaders instituted a series of reforms designed to allow more personal and financial freedom. Progress has been slow, but devoid of major upheaval and instability. For the most part these reforms do not address issues related to political freedom or the criminal justice system, both of which desperately need a major overhaul.
In 1989, (over twenty years ago) over a million Chinese (mostly young people and students) showed up to demonstrate in support of political and economic reforms. When the Chinese government finally cracked down, hundreds (best estimate 400-800 or 0.0000004% of the population) were killed and several thousand injured. Thousands more arrested.
Ten years ago, 10,000 falun gong practioners surrounded the Chinese Communist Party HQ and made a series of demands including replacing the "corrupt" Chinese government with falun gong practitioners. As a result of this incident and others like it, the Chinese government declared falun gong retroactively illegal and arrested many of its leaders. As far as I can determine, none of these people were executed and none had their organs harvested as per unsubstantiated allegations. Over the years, tens of thousands of falun gong practioners have been arrested during public demonstrations. Sentences range from fines to years/decades in prison. China's prison system is harsh and several falun gong practitioners have died in prison, possibly as a result of torture and abuse. China has only succeeded in driving the practice underground and tens of millions Chinese probably still observe it secretly.
Slavery is illegal in China, but in 2007, the Chinese police rescued more than 217 people including 29 children working as slaves in a brick factory. Similar reports in other areas indicate that hundreds of people have been been kidnapped and forced to work as slaves for years at various mines and factories. None of these activities are legal in China and the Chinese government has vowed to fight human trafficking and slavery.
China lacks many of the basic freedoms, Canadians take for granted. Their political system consists of only the Comunist party. Political opposition exists in secret. People who peacefully push for political reform and their family members face harassment, house arrest, arbitrary detention, torture and abuse.
In 2008, China excuted about 1700 people convicted of capital crimes by firing squad or lethal injection. The Chinese government is known to harvest the organs of executed prisoners without consent.
I disagree with capital punishment, but to put this in perspective, Saudi Arabia with (population: 25 million) executed about 140 people mostly by public beheading or stoning. If Saudia Arabia had the same population as China, that would scale up to about 7560 executions. In 1999, (George W. Bush was govenor of Texs) the US executed 98 people. (a peak year). If the US had the same popution as China that year would scale up to about 482 execution by similar methods as the Chinese.
In 1949, communist China invaded and occupied East Turkestan. Since then, the main ethnic group, Uighurs have pressed for independance, leading to arrests and conviction for treason. (A capital crime). This region was loosely controlled by various Chinese warlords for centuries.
Tibet has a history of being invaded and occupied by China. Tibet regained its independence in 1912 after about two centuries of Chinese domination. In 1950, China re-occupied Tibet. Tibetans pushing for independence face arrest, torture and possibly death sentences for treason. In 2008, China arrested hundreds/thousands of Tibetans violently protesting China's occupation. Probably dozens to hundreds died during the fighting.
According to Geneva Conventions and international law, land that was conquered in the course of a war; and the disposition of which is unresolved through subsequent peace treaties is "occupied" and subject to international laws of war and international humanitarian law. This includes special protection of individuals in those territories, limitations on the use of land in those territories, and access by international relief agencies.
Even if Israel no longer militarily occupies Gaza, they are still the legal occupying power until they hand control over to another nation or grant the area independence.
According to the UN Fact Finding Mission in Gaza:
So get over it. Israel can't legally wiggle out of their responsibility for the well being of Gaza civilians by simply building a wall around the area and moving their soldiers to guard towers on the periphery. Otherwise all prisons would be sovereign states.
Sorry, but I won't let Colpy get away with his pro-war crimes and crimes against humanity BS...
Back on topic.
Yeah, the travel warnings in the West bank and Gaza are do to terrorist attacks by Islamists....not Israeli's.:roll:
I haven't been to Gaza nor will I go unless Hamas recognises Israel and stops firing rockets into cities.
So, what do you think of Tibet and the Chinese involvment there?
Is the Dalai Lama a terrorist like the government claims.
How do you feel about this....
YouTube - Tiananmen Square Massacre
China has serious problems, but for the last 40 years, they have moved in the right direction. They are far more tolerant now.
I have met people who were in Tianamen the day before the crackdown. I understand why they protested, but I also understand why at some point the Chinese government had to intervene. The other choice would have been to allow China to descend into anarchy. China has had many periods of anarchy in the past and typically they are associated with mass starvation and civil war. The choice to disperse the protestors resulted in hundred of deaths. Starvation and civil war would have killed millions. The way I see it, the Chinese government didn't have any good choices.
Also, the Chinese government waited a month for the crowds to disperse before they finally lost patience. I doubt many governments would have waited that long. Dispersing a million protestors is a tall order and as your picture shows, the Chinese army wasn't intent on killing as many people as possible. If the protests had happened 40 years earlier, its likely far more people would have died.
I imagine that even the Canadian government would eventually use force to disperse protesters demanding the dismantling of the Canadian government.
I'm a fan of the Dalai Lama. I share his beliefs regarding peaceful non-violence and enlightenment. I fully support his efforts to non-violently gain increased autonomy and religious freedom for Tibet. While I don't think the Chinese government has managed Tibet very well, I also think Tibetan was not very well run when it was a theocracy. I support freedom of religion, but not handing government control of Tibet over to Buddhist monks. If China was wise, they'd protect Tibetan language, religion and culture, not try to assimilate it. This is one area where Canadian PM Harper can lecture the Chinese with legitimacy....
reference:
Multiculturalism in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How do you feel aboput this?
The Gaza Massacre
I have met people who were in Tianamen the day before the crackdown. I understand why they protested, but I also understand why at some point the Chinese government had to intervene. The other choice would have been to allow China to descend into anarchy. China has had many periods of anarchy in the past and typically they are associated with mass starvation and civil war. The choice to disperse the protestors resulted in hundred of deaths. Starvation and civil war would have killed millions. The way I see it, the Chinese government didn't have any good choices.
Also, the Chinese government waited a month for the crowds to disperse before they finally lost patience. I doubt many governments would have waited that long. Dispersing a million protestors is a tall order and as your picture shows, the Chinese army wasn't intent on killing as many people as possible. If the protests had happened 40 years earlier, its likely far more people would have died.
I imagine that even the Canadian government would eventually use force to disperse protesters demanding the dismantling of the Canadian government.
I'm a fan of the Dalai Lama. I share his beliefs regarding peaceful non-violence and enlightenment. I fully support his efforts to non-violently gain increased autonomy and religious freedom for Tibet. While I don't think the Chinese government has managed Tibet very well, I also think Tibetan was not very well run when it was a theocracy. I support freedom of religion, but not handing government control of Tibet over to Buddhist monks. If China was wise, they'd protect Tibetan language, religion and culture, not try to assimilate it. This is one area where Canadian PM Harper can lecture the Chinese with legitimacy....
reference:
Multiculturalism in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How do you feel aboput this?
The Gaza Massacre
That's it in a nutshell isn't it?
So, Harper did the right thing in bringing up human rights issues.
This isn't about Israel, it isn't about anyone but China and any attempt on your part to deflect criticism of what you consider a great place is indicative of the same attitudes held by the commies in China.....deny deny deny.
If you want to discuss Harper/Israel then start a thread to discuss that matter, but don't use it to defend China's problems and don't use it to defend how some foreign leader scolds ours.
If you don't like it, you know where the door is.
Excuse me??
Israel has tried to negotiate the return of Gaza to Egypt, they DON'T WANT IT!!!! So Israel abandoned it and allowed it to be governed by the Palestinian Authority, who lost out to Hamas......who now run the place. So what you are telling me is that territory that has been abandoned by the conquerer, de facto turning it over to the people that live there, after attempts to return it to the conquered, and that is now under the rule and control of a completely separate entity that is viciously hostile to the conquerer, is still considered "occupied" and the responsibility of the conquerer under international law.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA8O:roll::lol:
Yet another example of how and why international law is a farce, and is ignored by all rational people.
Nobody sane could rationalize the twisted course of that bit of "logic"!
Colpy:
Israel good muslims bad Israel good muslims bad. Israel good muslims bad Israel good muslims bad, Israel good.
Israel good muslims bad israel good muslims bad israel good maulims bad, israel good muslims bad.
HAHAHAHAHAHA Israel good muslims bad israel good muslims bad.
:roll:
Israel good muslims bad Israel good muslims bad. Israel good muslims bad Israel good muslims bad, Israel good.
Israel good muslims bad israel good muslims bad israel good maulims bad, israel good muslims bad.
HAHAHAHAHAHA Israel good muslims bad israel good muslims bad.
:roll:
You're learning.
It's been a long, slow process, but despite my doubts originally, it appears you can be taught.......although it is something like teaching nuclear physics to a small dog.
(He takes up the gauntlet)
Do you really want to go down this road again???
Oh, and THANKS, EAO, for turning this into yet another mud-slinging match over Israel.....Geezuz, man, you have GOT to seek treatment for that obsession.....
Oh no, you come through crystal clear.
Israel is always right and anyone who opposes them is wrong....perhaps even anti-semetic.
You're wrong of course, just clarifying your complete and utter bias.
Oh, and try to comment without calling someone stupid.
Thanks.
I'll make it simple for you guys:
I agree that China deserves criticism for their human rights record. But Harper has no moral authority when it comes to human rights. His support of torture, war crimes and crimes against humanity, (I gave several examples), indicates he lacks legitimacy.
I agree that China deserves criticism for their human rights record. But Harper has no moral authority when it comes to human rights. His support of torture, war crimes and crimes against humanity, (I gave several examples), indicates he lacks legitimacy.
BALONEY!!!!!!!! Harper does not support torture, Harper does not support war crimes, Harper does not support crimes against humanity.....to say Harper has no "moral authority to lecture the Chinese on human Rights is no less than idiotic.
Carleton University (hardly an epicentre of right-wing thought) ranks the world's nations on human rights. The lower the score, the better the Human Rights Record.........let's see how your hero nations fare.......
North Korea is the worst nation on earth, with a ranking of 8.73.
Canada, thankfully, is very near the top, with a ranking of 1.97
The USA has a ranking of 2.64
Israel has a not so good rating of 4.33
Iran, not surprizingly, has a ranking of 8.09.
But China tops even that, with a ranking of 8.39.
Country Ranking Table 2007 Rights
The largest nation on earth, with one quarter of the world's population.....has the fourth worst record of respecting human rights........and you have the unmitigated gall to contend that the leader of one of the very best nations on earth has no "moral authority" to challenge political enslavement of a quarter of the earth's population?????? Insane.
The Chinese are our enemies. Get it straight, In the same way that Nazi Germany was in the 1930s....the clash with China is inevitable, if we intend to bother defending our way of life. Meanwhile, like idiots, we continue to "sell them the rope to hang us with"
The Chinese have probably murdered 40,000 Falun Gong for their organs.
CBC News - Canada - China harvesting Falun Gong organs, report alleges
Just to give you a hint of what you are supporting when you do your lovely little tourist trips.
I won't bother lecturing you on Tianamen Square, the murder of religious leaders, the imprisonment of people simply for their religious belief, the torture of dissidents, the massacre and repression in Tibet, the removal of organs from the condemned, often before they are executed, the tolerance of slavery, the sabre-rattling over Taiwan, and on and on.
After all, you couldn't care less....I mean, it's not like the Chinese are Israeli or anything.........:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:
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:lol::lol::lol::lol: Colpy, it's not worth the while even responding to wingnuts like that. The only reason they post such nonsense is to get attention. War by the very nature of it can get dirty, but you can bet your bottom dollar if the treatment the Tallyban and insurgents are getting is too harsh, they'd soon pack it in.