Harper Pledges to Scrap Young Offenders Act:
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
:angry3:.........In our little town of Backwater, 100% of crime (non white collar) is committed by about 30 or so people. Some are "youths", some adults, but they've all got one thing in common. The've been going through the revolving door of drugs, alcohol, crime for years.
One reads the paper, and the same people have their names in "court news" every week, and as soon as the "youths" are old enough, they will also.
So, it's a vicious circle. MOST of these folks were disadvantaged when they were young, have crappy home lives, and pass it forward to their kids. Some straighten up as they age, get a job, and quiet down..........some don't. Some graduate to worse crime, do time, and we don't see them ever again, or at least for a few years.
I'm of the opinion, that a name in the paper = rep.
I'm of the opinion, also, that EARLY intervention is absolutely required, in the form of boot camp, counseling, whatever. I'm no psychologist, but, if you put 10 psychologists in a room and discuss this, you'll likely get 10 different opinions.
Kids need to be shown that someone actually cares what they do, what they learn, and what they become later on. For many many kids, this ain't the case. No one seems to give a sweet s h i t. This used to be the parents' job, but they aren't allowed to do it any more. Some parents have handled the change up well, and some haven't . And, it shows.
Plus, many many parents are so harried trying to keep a roof over and food on, by working at one or two or three McJobs, they have no time. Kids on the street, 24/7 if they want to be.
Wish I had the solution, aside from early caring, I don't know. Not one god damn kid in the world is born bad. They do what they learn.
Sad commentary on our society.
But, instead of health, welfare, education, caring, a structured environment, a decent job with a decent income where good parenting is possible, we get "gettin tough"..........like kids don't have enough "tough".
Just MO.
One reads the paper, and the same people have their names in "court news" every week, and as soon as the "youths" are old enough, they will also.
So, it's a vicious circle. MOST of these folks were disadvantaged when they were young, have crappy home lives, and pass it forward to their kids. Some straighten up as they age, get a job, and quiet down..........some don't. Some graduate to worse crime, do time, and we don't see them ever again, or at least for a few years.
I'm of the opinion, that a name in the paper = rep.
I'm of the opinion, also, that EARLY intervention is absolutely required, in the form of boot camp, counseling, whatever. I'm no psychologist, but, if you put 10 psychologists in a room and discuss this, you'll likely get 10 different opinions.
Kids need to be shown that someone actually cares what they do, what they learn, and what they become later on. For many many kids, this ain't the case. No one seems to give a sweet s h i t. This used to be the parents' job, but they aren't allowed to do it any more. Some parents have handled the change up well, and some haven't . And, it shows.
Plus, many many parents are so harried trying to keep a roof over and food on, by working at one or two or three McJobs, they have no time. Kids on the street, 24/7 if they want to be.
Wish I had the solution, aside from early caring, I don't know. Not one god damn kid in the world is born bad. They do what they learn.
Sad commentary on our society.
But, instead of health, welfare, education, caring, a structured environment, a decent job with a decent income where good parenting is possible, we get "gettin tough"..........like kids don't have enough "tough".
Just MO.
Yep.
Catch'em young and set'em straight.
I have some experience working with kids in elementary school and middle school. There are a lot of kids in urban Toronto that have no role model at home. That makes a huge difference. Not everyone is the Cleaver family living in the burbs with Mom at home and dear ol Dad at the office putting bread on the table.
There are some groups for after school but the funding for that is so damn tight. And to be honest, it's organized and run be people who really mean well but haven't the tools or funding to make more than a band aid response when major surgery is needed.
Most are way overwhelmed, scattered around and still require some money or some begging for a free ride.
But let's look at the competition. Extremely well funded, with specialists working to entice the best and the brightest of troubled youth into their ranks. Kids are offered money, clothes, cool toys, and later pretty nice cars, girls that make you feel like a god and respect based on fear. You never have to walk alone, someone always has your back should there be any trouble. And after a few years, you are out of the trenches and have a few crews working for you, like a manager of your own franchise.
No one your age is going to make that sort of money. You can life your whole family out of poverty, and make their life easier.
Some kids with a little training will scoop that opportunity up and run with it.
And for years now, no matter how bad you are including murder, you get a clean slate at 18.
So is there really any question why there is so much hardcore violence there is when a few groups feud over the small amount of business there is to spread around?
How in the world will cutting funding for kids, and getting tough on crime sort this mess out?
Isn't it a little like blowing up a building that's on fire to put the fire out?
Catch'em young and set'em straight.
I have some experience working with kids in elementary school and middle school. There are a lot of kids in urban Toronto that have no role model at home. That makes a huge difference. Not everyone is the Cleaver family living in the burbs with Mom at home and dear ol Dad at the office putting bread on the table.
There are some groups for after school but the funding for that is so damn tight. And to be honest, it's organized and run be people who really mean well but haven't the tools or funding to make more than a band aid response when major surgery is needed.
Most are way overwhelmed, scattered around and still require some money or some begging for a free ride.
But let's look at the competition. Extremely well funded, with specialists working to entice the best and the brightest of troubled youth into their ranks. Kids are offered money, clothes, cool toys, and later pretty nice cars, girls that make you feel like a god and respect based on fear. You never have to walk alone, someone always has your back should there be any trouble. And after a few years, you are out of the trenches and have a few crews working for you, like a manager of your own franchise.
No one your age is going to make that sort of money. You can life your whole family out of poverty, and make their life easier.
Some kids with a little training will scoop that opportunity up and run with it.
And for years now, no matter how bad you are including murder, you get a clean slate at 18.
So is there really any question why there is so much hardcore violence there is when a few groups feud over the small amount of business there is to spread around?
How in the world will cutting funding for kids, and getting tough on crime sort this mess out?
Isn't it a little like blowing up a building that's on fire to put the fire out?
Hey LW, that may be so, but do you think that a 14 year old going to prison for life and after 20 years he is let out in society as an intellectual?
That kid after 20 YEARS AT THE AGE OF 34 HE WILL HATE THE FACE OF HUMANITY TO THE POINT, THAT HE COULD CONSIDER A MASSIVE MURDER SUICIDE…….. DO YOU EVER THING OF THAT POSSIBILITY LW……??????……………I HOPE YOU AND MANY OTHERS DO!!!!………DON’T TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED IN THIS LIFE MY FRIEND……..
This is not how we should take care of dysfunctional human beings, instead of building jails build education to the point that the 14 year old kid would be speared from this affair environment………….and not forced to become a criminal….that is THE CRAP HARPER IS TELLING CANADIANS………………. MY LAW AND ORDER BULL S!HT WILL GUARANTEE NEW CRIMINALS…..
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I bet you would change your tune if your kid was shot in school by a 14 year old...
Look ... I'm of the opinion if he or she is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, they should dangle at the end of a rope just like any other proven murderer. Guaranteed, they won't come out with chips on their shoulders.
"Releasing names = labeling. That means self-fulfilling prophecy for youngsters. So nothing gained by doing that."
Waste of space indeed... wtf else did you mean by the above?
By all means, fill me with your vast knowlege.
Sounded a lot like you were just claiming that youngsters have some self-fulfilling prophecy AKA: desire to be known for what they did.
Then again, maybe I misunderstood you because of your accent. :roll:
Did you mean that they accidentally commited a crime and then suddenly wanted to be labeled/get attention as a criminal and therefore releasing their name is exactly what they want? Or did they just do it on purpose to get the attention, and since their names are not released, they just keep breaking the law until they do?
Or is it something else? By all means, I am fully willing to hear an elaboration on what you meant.
I've already explained this on the previous page with direct examples from around where I live, look it up.
If you want further details, please feel free to check out this thread:
Warrant: Girl was tortured for dating the wrong boy
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/75917-warrant-girl-tortured-dating-wrong.html
As you said, there's no need to waste further space, so there is no need for me to continually repeast myself.
And sometimes people don't give a sh*t and do what they want regardless, where later on down the road they get the proper help they need.
As I have already stated before, increasing the penalties and remove the current Youth Joke Act will deter a lot more youths then the current system.... it is not an absolute, nothing is, but it's sure as hell a lot better then what we have now.
Oh and those I knew who went through the system, didn't go and stab, rape or kill anybody else.... they already had the brains not to do that, due to the current deterrence, therefore it did work.... disproving your claim.
See, there's no such things as absolutes in any situation, but there are solutions which can reduce things to a minimum..... but you pointed out one of many problems..... what's your actual solution?
Well when I was a little brat, yes.... a smaller version of what stands before you now, My parents told me that if I did anything bad, or illegal, I'd be thrown in jail and they wouldn't help me out. They told me I'd have to accept the consequences of my actions.
Worked pretty damn well, because it scared the hell out of me as a kid. When you have children understanding that when they break the law or commit a serious offence, that they won't face anything all that serious in comparison to what adults would..... where's the desire to avoid those actions?
There arn't any.
And you should know as well as everybody else, that no matter how rich you are, or how well off you are, people can and will still commit crimes. Most of the punks around here come from well off, richy families who've given them everything they want and bailed their asses out of any problems they ever had to face.
The main goal which hits home to every spectrum of the income bracket is forcing people to deal with the consequences of their actions.
And if kids want to commit adult crimes, they can do adult times.
You seriously can't sit there and tell me these kids commit these violent crimes and didn't know what they were doing was wrong.
If positive incentives worked, then we wouldn't be debating this issue right now. The reason why crime rates drop as youths get older, is because they know they're much closer to being tried as adults for their crimes, so they dumb it down and what they think is a game, isn't anymore.
The income thing isn't really all that related.... I'm sure the numbers all match up to look like it does, but it's not. Mere coincidence if anything.... a coincidence that doesn't explain the entire spectrum of the problem.
If you think getting minimum wage at MacDonald's reduces crime...... well..... that's just silly.
If getting paid for a job made a difference, then how come we don't hear of paper routes, baby sitting jobs and the sort added into these equations?
Sounds a lot like the things already in prison for adults to rehabilitate.
Besides, they can do all of the above, while still making their names public and giving them longer jail times to make sure these programs stick into their little noggins.
It doesn't sound like more of the same to me.
Personally I woud claim bad parenting for starters.... or lack there of.
I had some pretty decent parents overall, I never drank n drove ever, never did any drugs or alcohol, well until I was on my own as an adult to decide for myself after I learned at best what consequences I may face..... that and as said before, my parents would either kick my ass or toss me in jail.
And I avoided fights as much as possible, because I learned a few things from my dad and his military experience... he never taught me much about scrapping, just how to take someone down really quickly and to make sure they have some perm. damage.
The majority of what developed my morals and decision making of right and wrong I can directly contribute to my parents, family and the fear of going to jail.
Agreed, those do happen. I had an old friend who drove his friends home drunk, drove up on the sidewalk, scared the sh*t out of himself and his friends. When I saw him the next day, he seemed a bit shooken up. I asked him what was wrong, he explained it to me....... then I decided to drive it home to him all the bad things that could have happened.... drove into a building, hit someone on the sidewalk, killed a baby in a stroller a mother was taking for a walk, etc.
By the time I was done with him, he was almost in tears. He never got caught, but last I heard, he didn't drink and drive again.
Hmmmm..... it's an idea. Sure would scare the crap out of most others who might think they could get away with it.
I always liked the concept of sending them all to a little island somewhere to live like the animals they want to be.
Sure they tried something similar with Australia, but that wasn't exactly the same thing.
Isn't that the same thing as locking them up longer/ever? Put them in a call centre, and they're still communicating with society.
I cannot wait to see the YJA changed. Obviously the "rehabilitation" route is not working as you have the same people commiting the crimes over and over again, without any fear of repercussions. It will be good to have them receive sentences befitting their crimes.
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Oh sure, Brazilian !!
Do you know how much it will cost to import them all the way up here ?? :angry3:
Get real, eh !!
Nothing wrong with Inuit Death Squads, Newfoundland, or even Manitoba Death Squads. We get some CIA trainers for a bit, and we're good to go.
Gotta think local. Think jobs jobs jobs.
Think Canajan eh !!
Your right. We could bring up some Brazilian police "consultants" to train our officers on the finer points of getting tough on youth crime. They'd have the streets cleaned up in no time.
How does self-fulfilling prophecy translate to attention seeking? It doesn't. A self-fulfilling prophecy is when someone acts in a manner that people expect they would. Call them a criminal, and they'll act like a criminal. It's similar to the placebo effect.
You're confused and don't know what I was talking about. The desire to be known for what they did is not at all related to this...
Or because you don't understand what the concept means? Yeah, that's more plausible.
This s exactly what I meant. Endless wasted space over the same question...Read above. If you don't understand what something means next time, try looking it up.
What you explained was a personal choice. They can choose to change, or they can remain criminals. How does that in any way address youth crime? It doesn't. And releasing their names will not help that out at all. In fact, if we listen to your trash, that means they would have an even larger 'rep' following them around, not just street cred in their little corner of the city...
Yeah, stating things must make them true...so, if harsher penalties work so well, why do states with death penalties have higher rates of capital murders than states without death penalties? Why do crime rates go down in Canada when the penalties haven't been increased? There are much more effective tools to use to reduce crime.
But not the brains to avoid committing the first crime...so the current deterrence is adequate, yet they still committed crimes...I gave an example. It appears your claim is somewhat dodgy...
I gave a couple of examples already. More involvement with the youth, better opportunities for employment, more integration between the programs we do have. That's just a short list. I'm sure those who work in this field could give you more comprehensive answers. You've never heard of what an ounce of prevention is worth?
So you had good role models? That's part of the solution in the first place. Who is saying there shouldn't be consequences? I certainly haven't. I'm just saying that adding more consequence to consequence in the area of crime for the purpose of deterrence doesn't work. Just go back to murders in states with no capital punishment versus those that do have it. Compare crime rates in Canada with those in the US.
That's not my experience with crime in Halifax. Right, Spryfield is such a rich place...The Square...OK...
You're right I can't, which is why I never said that in the first place.
OK, how about you list some positive incentives from Halifax. Go ahead, name a couple.
Umm, nope. You're wrong again. This phenomenon is seen in other countries where they don't have a Youth Criminal Justice Act.
What would you know about it? These aren't coincidences when they are observed in many studies of the same issue, across the planet. That's called a trend in human behaviour patterns Praxius.
Right...because that's exactly what I said
Sure they could. But they don't. They focus on the things with the least effectiveness, but maximum political gain. Get tough on crime. Yeah! Just like the insane war on drugs. Putting the emphasis in the wrong place.
Harper the classic bigot and hypocrite, here is a man who believes on all the reasons to be prolife, and here is hypocrite Harper the intolerable elitist Canadian chicken little PM, WHO WILL BUILD JAILS TO HOUSE KIDS WHO HAVE HAD A BAD START………..HARPER LOVES LIFE………HARPER YOU ARE A SORRY AND STUPID EXAMPLE OF FAIRNESS AND DEMOCRACY
I like the idea of rewarding kids with a bad start. Say your 14 year old neighbor kills your cat; well, simply buy him a car, because he's just a misunderstood child at heart.
No according to your mentor Harper lets bring on the parade of how important life is before birth, and after birth lets pick and choose whose kid qualifies to go through education and the ones that don’t qualify through them on the streets on Societies door step and if society shows anxiety lets through these unwanted souls in a prison room and the problem has gone away………………What a f ucked up world….that is…..a bunch of hurtles self serving hypocrites….No wander you se so many multiple murder suicides, because of this f ucking elitist attitudes from Governments like the Conservatives.. Phony religious righteous fools. :roll::roll::roll:
I don't know how ****ed up the world is, but if you think Harper is my mentor, then you're more ****ed up than one would think possible.
And by the way, by using the term 'elitist', you're saying that you think the Conservatives are smarter than you are yourself.
And by the way, by using the term 'elitist', you're saying that you think the Conservatives are smarter than you are yourself.