Hamas attacks Israel

[petros]

Sure; the 25K - or less - from the Military Wing. But that's not confirmed, again. So it could be more, or less. Just saying.



Last estimated count I saw was 224ish.




No.

Even the number of hostages has varied.



Wow. Okay then.



In your opinion, sure, that's true.

It's not mine.

There is a difference to me. Because if we DON'T apply a difference between situations like Hamas, then we don't get to apply any 'conditions' to any "kid" who does something wrong and we should just kill them all.

I see those who are 'kids' that join Hamas no different than Child Soldiers. And if we don't give the Palestinian kids a pass, we don't get to do the same for Child Soldiers.

All should be slaughtered then.

And I can't do that, I can't support that belief.



True, proof being this convo.



Absolutely it does. Even by legal standards it would.



Absolutely it does. Even by legal standards it would.



That's true.

But we can also find examples and provide those as the motivations for why SOME do this.



Upper leadership of Hamas? Absolutely and to think not is being in denial.

Those lower down (the "kids" people don't give a fuck about?) maybe, maybe not? After all, to use the excuse of certain aspects of society "a brain is not fully developed enough until 23-25".

Now, personally? It's likely they do know regardless of age what could happen or is likely to happen. But this is a military with leadership so who knows the 'reasons' that they tell them for doing things. Until someone comes out to say so, we won't know.



I would think so, but who knows?



That's true, your guess is as good as mine.

We're also looking at this like outsiders who live in a totally different country and culture.

I think the difference though is I take those into account - other people do not. Which makes for these problems in understanding the situation.



Maybe, maybe not? Sure it's not likely to be separate.

But that doesn't mean all Hamas agree with what happened. And in the end that is my point of it all; you cannot lump all of Palestine in with Hamas, and maybe not even all of those who are part of Hamas into what happened (at least for the Hamas part, until there's proof every single individual agreed with it).


In the end, Ron, the question is: was Israel justified to retaliate against the attack perpetuated by Hamas on the 7th.

Answer: Yes.

But there IS more to follow that up. Is Israel - especially after supporting Hamas for so long in its own way, and for provocations towards Palestine that no Israeli citizen could not know would push for retaliation - JUST as at fault for provocation of attack by Hamas who they know is extremest and a terrorist organization?

Answer: Yes.

Which boils this down to the Three Generation Rule: it no longer matters WHO is at fault because there will ALWAYS be "one side provoking the other" or one side giving "reasons" to attack the other.

The ONLY way to properly view the situation is to blame BOTH sides for this bloodshed and recognize that NEITHER side wants any peace or stability at all. Not Israel. Not Palestine (specifically the Gaza Strip). Denying or ignoring that reality just perpetuates the violence, regardless of whose "side" you end up on in your denialism.

In the Gaza Strip and West Bank, the local LGBT community faces a precarious situation due to the general lack of civil rights legislation aimed at tackling discrimination. However, there is also a significant legal divide between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with the former having more progressive laws and the latter having more conservative laws. Shortly after the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank in 1950, same-sex acts were decriminalized across the territory with the adoption of the Jordanian Penal Code of 1951. In the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, however, no such initiative was implemented. Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has been ruled by Hamas, and sexual activity between men is illegal due to Hamas' enforcement of Islamic law. Currently, the Hamas government punishes all men who are convicted of having engaged in homosexual acts with up to 10 years in prison.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Gaza internet services cut by Israeli bombing, Palestinian telecom provider says | CityNews Vancouver

Palestinian telecom provider Paltel says internet service in Gaza Strip has been cut off by Israeli bombardment.

vancouver.citynews.ca

Israel expects to launch a long and difficult ground offensive into Gaza soon to destroy Hamas, the defense minister said Friday, as airstrikes intensified after nightfall and the territory’s internet and mobile communications services collapsed.

Gaza's besieged residents faced a near-total communications and Internet blackout as Israel's warplanes dropped bombs and its troops and armour pushed into the Hamas-ruled enclave, with Israeli military chiefs signalling they were gearing up for an expanded ground offensive.

Israel shows images of tanks in Gaza as war on Hamas militants deepens — Reuters

Israel is expanding ground operations in Gaza and its fighter jets have struck hundreds more Hamas targets, the Israeli military said on Sunday, in what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called the second phase of a three-week-old war.

apple.news

Hamas is equipped with thousands of gallons of fuel that can be used for vehicles and rockets, ammunition, plenty of food and water and medicine — an indication of just how long it has had to prepare for a fight like this. Before this new phase, the Gaza health ministry claimed nearly 8,000 Palestinians had been killed during Israeli retributory strikes and the siege of Gaza, which followed Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack that saw 1,400 Israelis slain.

Israel launches expanded Gaza ground operation — but won’t use the I-word — POLITICO

“It’s the second stage of the war,” Netanyahu said in a speech Saturday. “We’re going to save our country.”

apple.news

Egypt says 'Israeli obstacles' impeding aid delivery to Gaza — Reuters

Egypt's Foreign Ministry said on Saturday "Israeli obstacles" including truck inspection procedures were impeding the prompt delivery of aid to the Gaza Strip through the Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Palestinian enclave.

apple.news

 

[Serryah]

View attachment 19812

Congrats that you buy into the lies 'bout Israel, Ron.

Of those 7 things under Israel, five of them are lies.

Israel doesn't allow the death penalty - that I know of - and it did withdraw from Gaza... sometime.

The rest?

No, and provably lies.

Under Hamas, only one is maybe a lie, maybe not. It HAS put forward the idea for peace, but Israel said no.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Congrats that you buy into the lies 'bout Israel, Ron.

Of those 7 things under Israel, five of them are lies.

Israel doesn't allow the death penalty - that I know of - and it did withdraw from Gaza... sometime.

The rest?

No, and provably lies.

Gotta be.

Under Hamas, only one is maybe a lie, maybe not. It HAS put forward the idea for peace, but Israel said no.

What has Hamas put forward for peace? Just curious. Does it involve pre-1967 boundaries that came into play after Israel had to fight almost all of its neighbours simultaneously? If the average age of Palestinians is 18 years old….doesn’t this enter that three generation thing? Isn’t there some kind of rule about that or some thing?

 

[Dixie Cup]

Apparently Israel is the only country in the world who must defend themselves in such a way as to not: hurt, offend, kill, injure or mutilate their aggressors or THEY will be held to account. Doesn't matter that they're fighting for survival WOW I really can't get my head around that!

 

[Dixie Cup]

Congrats that you buy into the lies 'bout Israel, Ron.

Of those 7 things under Israel, five of them are lies.

Israel doesn't allow the death penalty - that I know of - and it did withdraw from Gaza... sometime.

The rest?

No, and provably lies.

Under Hamas, only one is maybe a lie, maybe not. It HAS put forward the idea for peace, but Israel said no.

That's absolutely false.

 

[Serryah]

What has Hamas put forward for peace? Just curious. Does it involve pre-1967 boundaries that came into play after Israel had to fight almost all of its neighbours simultaneously? If the average age of Palestinians is 18 years old….doesn’t this enter that three generation thing? Isn’t there some kind of rule about that or some thing?

In 2004, before his assassination, Ahmed Yassin was for peace with Israel provided it stopped it's targeted bombings and went to the 1967 borders.

But otherwise:

Israel Rejected Peace with Hamas on Five Occasions

Israel wants the world to believe that Hamas has committed itself to terrorism since its founding, but that is simply not true.

inkstickmedia.com

Instead of negotiating, Israel flat out refused. By doing so, it proved it didn't want Peace at all, nor was it willing to negotiate for peace.

It had it's scapegoat.

As for the 3 Generation "thing", not sure what you mean really. That rule just explains why violence continues on a generational thing and why the start of conflicts between groups doesn't matter after so long.

 

[Serryah]

"Protects sacred places of all religions" - unless it's the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque https://bnn.network/world/israel/hu...storm-al-aqsa-mosque-amid-sukkot-celebration/

Christians become a target of Israel's rising far right

Church officials and Christian leaders in Israel blame a minority of Jewish extremists for the attacks. They say Israel’s far-right government has fostered a culture of impunity.

www.nbcnews.com

"Supplies the strip with water and electricity for humanitarian reasons" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_electricity_crisis

Of course during the current insanity, it's humane to not only deny food, water and electricity, but medical supplies and so on, because every single person in Gaza is part of Hamas, even the dying elderly, the sick, and infants in incubators.


"Free Democracy respects human rights and personal freedoms" - Unless you're Arab https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_ISRAEL-2021-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf

A Threshold Crossed

The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primarily over the area between the Jordan River and...

www.hrw.org

https://www.btselem.org/

https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20...ent-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir "It was easy to foresee how the coalition would act: The new government’s ministers have made longstanding attacks on LGBTQ communities, religious freedom, Israeli and Palestinian civil society, and who can even call themselves a Jew. Above all, there will be drastic implications for Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and for civil liberties for Israeli citizens, in large part because Netanyahu’s internal coalition negotiations have brought settlers into key ministerial posts."

Even who can call themselves a Jew. Wow...


"Protects it's Citizens, tries to avoid Civilian Casualties" - https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1207898416/palestinian-christians-gaza-church

Palestinian Evangelicals Call Western Church to Repentance, Criticized in Return - Christianity Today

Middle East Christians assert their rejection of violence as they relate frustration with lack of Western recognition of the reality of occupation and the collateral damage of bombing campaigns.

www.christianitytoday.com

"Open to negotiations of Peace" - well, that I covered already.


And no, to reiterate, I'm not saying Hamas is guilt free. Again, everything under the Hamas side is pretty much true, except for that last bit about peace.

So when you have one extremist side known for it's atrocities, and another side that *seems* to be the 'good guys' but in reality isn't, is it any wonder then things continue to be a shitshow?

Israel is NOT an innocent, not by a long shot and the world has to stop treating them like they are. Maybe if that became a thing, THEN Peace might happen.

Or the region blows itself up to hell; either or works.

 

[petros]

This situation really brings out the Antisemitism.

WTG!

Putin is smiling is his grave. He got to see Israel attacked by Arabs sponsored by Russia one last time.

 

[Taxslave2]

View attachment 19813


"Protects sacred places of all religions" - unless it's the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque https://bnn.network/world/israel/hu...storm-al-aqsa-mosque-amid-sukkot-celebration/

Christians become a target of Israel's rising far right

Church officials and Christian leaders in Israel blame a minority of Jewish extremists for the attacks. They say Israel’s far-right government has fostered a culture of impunity.

www.nbcnews.com

"Supplies the strip with water and electricity for humanitarian reasons" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_electricity_crisis

Of course during the current insanity, it's humane to not only deny food, water and electricity, but medical supplies and so on, because every single person in Gaza is part of Hamas, even the dying elderly, the sick, and infants in incubators.


"Free Democracy respects human rights and personal freedoms" - Unless you're Arab https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_ISRAEL-2021-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf

A Threshold Crossed

The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primarily over the area between the Jordan River and...

www.hrw.org

https://www.btselem.org/

https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20...ent-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir "It was easy to foresee how the coalition would act: The new government’s ministers have made longstanding attacks on LGBTQ communities, religious freedom, Israeli and Palestinian civil society, and who can even call themselves a Jew. Above all, there will be drastic implications for Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and for civil liberties for Israeli citizens, in large part because Netanyahu’s internal coalition negotiations have brought settlers into key ministerial posts."

Even who can call themselves a Jew. Wow...


"Protects it's Citizens, tries to avoid Civilian Casualties" - https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1207898416/palestinian-christians-gaza-church

Palestinian Evangelicals Call Western Church to Repentance, Criticized in Return - Christianity Today

Middle East Christians assert their rejection of violence as they relate frustration with lack of Western recognition of the reality of occupation and the collateral damage of bombing campaigns.

www.christianitytoday.com

"Open to negotiations of Peace" - well, that I covered already.


And no, to reiterate, I'm not saying Hamas is guilt free. Again, everything under the Hamas side is pretty much true, except for that last bit about peace.

So when you have one extremist side known for it's atrocities, and another side that *seems* to be the 'good guys' but in reality isn't, is it any wonder then things continue to be a shitshow?

Israel is NOT an innocent, not by a long shot and the world has to stop treating them like they are. Maybe if that became a thing, THEN Peace might happen.

Or the region blows itself up to hell; either or works.

You do realize that if Israel was not surrounded by nations run by people that preach DEATH to Israel on a daily basis they would not need to take a hardline stance? Or is that over your Jew hating head?

 

[Twin_Moose]

So - yes this is sidetracking things - the guy who went to Parliament, he fought for Ukraine, not Germany. Germany just happened to be the military force he joined to fight Russia.

Would that make him a Nazi? Since Ukraine doesn't recognize people like him as being Nazi's or for fighting for Germany... is our "opinion" on the matter more legitimate/right than theirs?

Much of that group that stayed formed the resistance against Stalin and were fighting against the USSR well into the 1950's

 

[Twin_Moose]

Tighten that tin foil hat there TM... it's slipping.

No tin foil hat here it is a fact no sitting POTUS lost a second term while engaged in a hot war

 

[Serryah]

You do realize that if Israel was not surrounded by nations run by people that preach DEATH to Israel on a daily basis they would not need to take a hardline stance? Or is that over your Jew hating head?

Aww, did the conversation get too in depth for your little head, Tax?

Not a "Jew Hating" person, thanks. Nor have I ever been.

Also I fully realize it. I also realize there's lots more to the issue.

Congrats on being part of the problem though, I'm sure the extremist right wing in Israel would be proud - provided you fit what they deem is proper.

 

[Serryah]

No tin foil hat here it is a fact no sitting POTUS lost a second term while engaged in a hot war

First off, they're not engaged in a 'hot war' right now. Close to it, sure, but not y et.

Second, absolutely tin foil hat on your head, if you're throwing around terms like "NWO" and "Global Dream".

Perhaps the internet isn't for you, TM, if you get scared so easily about things that aren't real.

 

[Dixie Cup]

In 2004, before his assassination, Ahmed Yassin was for peace with Israel provided it stopped it's targeted bombings and went to the 1967 borders.

But otherwise:

Israel Rejected Peace with Hamas on Five Occasions

Israel wants the world to believe that Hamas has committed itself to terrorism since its founding, but that is simply not true.

inkstickmedia.com

Instead of negotiating, Israel flat out refused. By doing so, it proved it didn't want Peace at all, nor was it willing to negotiate for peace.

It had it's scapegoat.

As for the 3 Generation "thing", not sure what you mean really. That rule just explains why violence continues on a generational thing and why the start of conflicts between groups doesn't matter after so long.

Yassar Arafat was given pretty much everything he wanted at one point & he turned it down! So if you're correct, it works both ways doesn't it. Besides, Hamas doesn't want a solution except to destroy the very existance of Israel who has done more for the Palestinians than Hamas or the PA ever did!!

 

[Twin_Moose]

First off, they're not engaged in a 'hot war' right now. Close to it, sure, but not y et.

Second, absolutely tin foil hat on your head, if you're throwing around terms like "NWO" and "Global Dream".

Perhaps the internet isn't for you, TM, if you get scared so easily about things that aren't real.

It's all connected

New world order Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Globalization | The Canadian Encyclopedia
Home | World Government Summit
Our Mission | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Global migration, by the numbers | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Maybe it's time for you to open your eyes to what is happening right in front of you
One is not as blind as the one who chooses not to see

 

[petros]

It's all connected

New world order Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Globalization | The Canadian Encyclopedia
Home | World Government Summit
Our Mission | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Global migration, by the numbers | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Maybe it's time for you to open your eyes to what is happening right in front of you
One is not as blind as the one who chooses not to see

Globalism died Feb 24 2022

Power Blocks are currently forming.

 

[Serryah]

It's all connected

New world order Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Globalization | The Canadian Encyclopedia
Home | World Government Summit
Our Mission | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Global migration, by the numbers | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
Maybe it's time for you to open your eyes to what is happening right in front of you
One is not as blind as the one who chooses not to see

• New World Or·der,
  • a hypothetical, secretly developing, global reorganization of social, political, and economic systems in the direction of totalitarianism, as posited by a conspiracy theory.
  • the conspiracy theory that posits this reorganization.
    
    

I'd rather not believe in conspiracy theories, TM, thanks. Give me actual proof of this, real, unbiased proof, then maybe it's a topic of discussion.

You shouldn't also bring up being blind when you are so very much so as it concerns what's going on right now.

 

[petros]

Clueless

 

[Dixie Cup]

It's scary that so many people don't understand what is happening. Because it is so insidious, people aren't paying attention. It's truly disturbing & why we're in the pickle we're in. I'm not very optimistic about the future, but I'm also NOT AFRAID because I will only comply with common sense policies & not stupid ideological policies that don't make any sense. Using the intelligence that God gave us isn't prevalent anymore - just whatever "floats your boat" even if it means a sinking society.