Hamas attacks Israel

[Ron in Regina]

Well, only certain government - right now.

There's already Palestinians in Jordan and elsewhere, and they are not the 'overthrow the government' kinds.

You're blending Hamas to = Palestinians.

Where do the Hamas 30,000 to 50,000 people come from in Gaza depending on what numbers you wish to believe? Palestinians aren’t necessarily Hamas, but Hamas (for the most part) would be Palestinians.

Maybe; maybe it's more than that, or less.

If anybody looks at Muslim Refugees coming into their country with open eyes, it’s probably going to be other Muslim dominant nations….or Poland?

??????

??????

 

[Serryah]

Where do the Hamas 30,000 to 50,000 people come from in Gaza depending on what numbers you wish to believe? Palestinians aren’t necessarily Hamas, but Hamas (for the most part) would be Palestinians.

Well first of all, there aren't 30-50K people in Hamas.

Second, they're radicalized kids, because all those kids - remember half of Gaza is under 18 - only have known suffering under Israel. Even if they don't turn to Hamas, they still only know the shit Israel has put on them.

Tell me, if YOU were living in their world, at 18 or even just a little older, do YOU think you could avoid joining a group that "promises to set you free"?

Be honest.

If anybody looks at Muslim Refugees coming into their country with open eyes, it’s probably going to be other Muslim dominant nations….or Poland?

??????

??????

Muslims have made themselves into their own worst nightmares. Because while not All terrorists are Muslim, most of the world's current extremist ones, are Muslims.

Until they stand up and are more vocal about that terrorism, they'll continue to get the shit end of everyone's bigotry and racism, and suspicion, even if it's not deserved.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Much the same logic? was used to confiscate fishboats from Japanese citizens and ship them far from the coast. The few that I had the privilege of knowing in my younger years hated the Emperor much more than any white citizen possibly could.

We relocated all the Japanese-Americans from California (but not Hawaii. Too many to relocate). The legendary 442d Regimental Combat Team, which won more combat medals per man than any other unit in the entire U.S. Forces in WWII, was composed entirely of Japanese Americans, about 2/3 of whom volunteered from inside the concentration camps.

The U.S. officially apologized and paid reparations to the survivors in 1988. We did no such thing for the Jewish refugees denied entry.

Is "some of them might be terrorists!" reason enough to categorically forbid refugees from Gaza, or as Colpy once advocated, categorically forbid all Muslims from immigrating to Canada?

 

[Ron in Regina]

Well first of all, there aren't 30-50K people in Hamas.

How many are there? How many “Wings” or “Divisions” of Hamas are there? In the Military “Wing” or “Division” I find this:

Second, they're radicalized kids, because all those kids - remember half of Gaza is under 18 - only have known suffering under Israel. Even if they don't turn to Hamas, they still only know the shit Israel has put on them.

So….radicalized kids….that’re good boys and it’s Israel’s fault that they happened to have….for instance….invaded a rock concert of unarmed civilians, murdered 260+ there alone, raping others amid the copses, kidnapping anyone from babies to geriatrics for hostages, etc…and then….they went back to their boy scout camps? If you’re killing people and raping others, you are no longer in the “kids” category.

Much like the number of hostages that they took, the numbers stated in Hamas are all over the place. If there’s 20,000 or 25,000 in their military “wing” alone, what’s in the “other wings?” Twelve?

Tell me, if YOU were living in their world, at 18 or even just a little older, do YOU think you could avoid joining a group that "promises to set you free"?

Be honest.

Sure, let’s both be completely honest here.

I can’t say where I would be mentally, but I can say that even without religion, I’m not up for raping anyone or murdering babies, but maybe that’s just me at the “grandfather” stage in my life, but I made it to this point without murdering children, or raping anybody….or having the desire to do so.

I think that level of mentality defective psychopathic brokenness comes independent of religion…but religion seems to attract it as an organization to hide in like a police force or a union or what have you.

I’m the first to agree that there are times for physical violence as an answer in a corrective measure, but that stops before ‘intensional’ maiming or murder. Trust me when I say that God or Religion is not my governing factor.

Muslims have made themselves into their own worst nightmares. Because while not All terrorists are Muslim, most of the world's current extremist ones, are Muslims.

It does house the radicals in the moderates well, but that’s a choice. There’s accountability that doesn’t seem applicable or even expected with religion as an excuse, and solidarity with the radical elements by the moderates when convenient….until opening their doors is not an option because they get it. Let the Swedes or someone else deal with it ‘cuz damn….not interested in rolling those loaded dice. There are over 50 predominantly Islamic nations currently but they understand the nuances that go along with refugees from a situation like this.

Until they stand up and are more vocal about that terrorism, they'll continue to get the shit end of everyone's bigotry and racism, and suspicion, even if it's not deserved.

Meh….I don’t have a problem with Muslims. I am in the transport industry. I am the minority and that’s OK. In our building alone, there are five or six trucking companies, and of those I’m one of the two Caucasians….& we ALL get along respectfully. Christians and Hindus and Muslims and a few Sihks…with the smallest religions represented being my coworker who is Christian and myself who just doesn’t care about religion. We are all there to work as opposed to not being there to work, & the building is owned by a non-practicing Jewish guy, & he’s awesome!! Keep in mind I’m only talking about the transport companies in our building, and not the therapists and the accountants, and so on and so forth…

 

[Blackleaf]

Britain confirms its support for Israel

British PM Rishi Sunak confirmed his wish for an Israeli victory during a meeting with Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv.

Netanyahu likened Britain's fight against the Nazis to Israel's fight 80 years later against Hamas, the "new Nazis."

 

[spaminator]

Writer who said 'Jews' can stay but 'Zionist ideology' can't, no longer with CTV

Author of the article:Joe Warmington
Published Oct 26, 2023 • Last updated 1 day ago • 3 minute read
Yara Jamal, listed on CTVs website as a writer and production assistant, was also at a Pro-Palestine rally in Halifax Sunday and quoted saying there is no room for a "Zionist" state -- supplied photo
Yara Jamal, listed on CTVs website as a writer and production assistant, was also at a Pro-Palestine rally in Halifax Sunday and quoted saying there is no room for a "Zionist" state. PHOTO BY SUPPLIED PHOTO
Yara Jamal can still hold her opinion that the “Zionist” state of Israel “cannot” exist, but it won’t be as an employee of CTV.


Word came Thursday that a staffer listed on the CTV Atlantic web page as a “web writer and production assistant” who said “Zionist ideology cannot” exist is no longer employed there.


“Oct. 2023: Yara Jamal is no longer with CTV Atlantic,” is the update above her profile on the CTV web page.

CTV News also confirmed this.

It is unclear if Jamal was fired or whether she left on her own accord. What is clear, is she is no longer there.

“While we don’t comment on specific staffing matters we can confirm that Yara Jamal is no longer with CTV News,” said a CTV News spokesperson.


Jamal’s sudden departure from CTV stemmed from Sunday’s Pro-Palestinian protest in Halifax in which the journalist appeared to be an organizer who told SaltWire Network that “Jews can continue to exist, the Zionist ideology cannot,” and when further questioned, doubled down by saying “the state, no, cannot exist.”



In addition to it crossing the line to becoming a protester while working for a news organization covering said protests, the issue that drove CTV to investigate was her comments that Jewish Canadians found offensive and troubling and wondering if that view was affecting the network’s coverage and social media postings.

Mostly it was a mean comment that no one would get away with if it were not Jews and Israel targetted.

“Telling Jews they cannot live in their indigenous lands and villainizing Zionism, an essential component of the Jewish faith, is anti-Semitic,” said B’nai Brith CEO Michael Mostyn. “When members of the media expose their prejudices and biases publicly, something they should have been trained professionally not to do, they have lost their ability to be perceived as objective disseminators of the news.”


While there is leeway afforded to commentators and columnists to express their views, it is different for those recording or reporting on news events. This employee also tested the line that no other person would be able to say if her comments were directed toward Muslims or Islamic states without severe repercussions.


In the case of NDP MPP Sarah Jama, similar views resulted in her being removed from her party’s caucus. In the case of an anti-Semitic comment online, a Canadian pilot who wore a Palestinian scarf while in uniform also left his company.


A Toronto Police officer, and a Toronto Community Housing officer are currently under probe by the Professional Standard’s unit while faculty and union leaders face internal backlash but still have their jobs.


Jamal no longer has hers.

The Toronto Sun has been unable to reach her for comment from the beginning and it appears social media accounts are no longer accessible. The latest email to her was returned with: “The individual you are trying to reach is no longer with Bell.”

It is an unfortunate outcome for a young talent who her biography says the English and Arabic-speaking journalist “originally from Palestine” had “turned her passion for storytelling into a career.”

Yara Jamal's CTV profile says she is no longer with the network
Yara Jamal’s CTV profile says she is no longer with the network
In addition to CTV she also “interned for the SaltWire Network as a video-journalist and multimedia editor” and was “part of the “Reporting in Mi’kma’ki” class at the University of King’s College, where she reported on the Eskasoni Fish and Wildlife Commission in Unama’ki/Cape Breton” and “won gold for the Canadian Online Publishing Awards in the Multicultural category.”

But it was the quote’s suggestion Israel didn’t have a right to exist as a country, weeks after its worst-ever terror attack in which 1,400 citizens were slaughtered, that got her removed from the prestigious CTV position.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1716817984361247108

WARMINGTON: Writer who said 'Jews' can stay but 'Zionist ideology' can't, no longer with CTV

Jamal's sudden departure from CTV stemmed from Sunday’s Pro-Palestinian protest in Halifax.

torontosun.com

 

[spaminator]

GTA realtors lose jobs amid Israeli-Hamas conflict debate
One of the realtors, Vadim Vilensky, has since apologized for his actions

Author of the article:Jane Stevenson
Published Oct 26, 2023 • Last updated 1 day ago • 2 minute read
This Facebook post, taken from an X posting by @Noellenarwhal and attributed to Toronto realtor Vadim Vilensky, sparked calls for the revocation of the agent's real estate licence.
This Facebook post, taken from an X posting by @Noellenarwhal and attributed to Toronto realtor Vadim Vilensky, sparked calls for the revocation of the agent's real estate licence.
GTA realtors, on opposite sides of the Israeli-Hamas conflict, have found themselves without jobs at RE/MAX.


Vadim Vilensky – whose clients were in Woodbridge, North York, Newmarket, Richmond Hill and Vaughan – is no longer employed by the company.


“We can confirm that as of October 19, Mr. Vilensky is no longer affiliated with the RE/MAX Realtron brokerage or the RE/MAX brand,” a RE/MAX spokesperson told the Toronto Sun on Thursday.

Vilensky, who is Jewish, previously posted on his social media a photo of bombed-out Gaza with the words, “Coming soon to the market,” along with two laughing-face emojis.

He then wrote: “Off market. 130 square miles, oceanfront lot. No utility. No power/water.”


Vilensky has since removed those posts and issued a lengthy apology with a five-and-a-half minute YouTube video – providing The Sun with both the video and written version of his apology – where he calls his actions a “severe lack of judgment” and a “terrible mistake.”


“In a moment of misjudgment and overwhelming emotions due to the ongoing war in Israel, I carelessly shared a post on my personal social media pages that showed destroyed buildings in Gaza, along with inappropriate laughing emojis,” Vilensky wrote.

“I want to sincerely apologize for the pain and hurt that this post has caused. I deeply regret this, as this absolutely does not represent my true feelings about this extremely sensitive and horrible global issue.”

An online petition demanding the Real Estate Council of Ontario revoke Vilensky’s realtor credentials resulted and RECO told the Sun they were looking into it last week.


Meanwhile, B’nai Brith says it’s pleased after RE/MAX parted ways with Nazhi Khatatba, who they allege is “a terrorist sympathizer.”

“B’nai Brith and the Jewish community are feeling a sense of relief now that RE/MAX has made this sensible decision to part ways with Khatatba,” B’nai Brith Canada CEO Michael Mostyn said in a statement.

“He is an unabashed terrorist sympathizer who celebrated the Hamas massacre of Jews on Oct. 7,” Mostyn alleged.

Khatatba, the editor of the Arabic-language newspaper Al-Meshwar, was recently hired by RE/MAX Canada. But B’nai Brith strongly objected after discovering his new position, claiming the paper regularly publishes “inflammatory, anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist content.”

“His rhetoric is dangerous, and he should be shunned,” Mostyn said. “We thank RE/MAX for taking the concerns of the Jewish community seriously.”

GTA realtors lose jobs amid Israeli-Hamas conflict debate

GTA realtors, on opposite sides of the Israeli-Hamas conflict, have found themselves without jobs at RE/MAX.

torontosun.com

 

[spaminator]

Marit Stiles failing as NDP leader, won't last long
NDP Leader failed her leadership test on Sarah Jama, now faces revolt from those who stand with the Hamilton MPP


Author of the article:Brian Lilley
Published Oct 26, 2023 • 3 minute read

How long can Marit Stiles stay on as leader of Ontario’s NDP?


She’s facing horrible poll numbers, she can’t make inroads against the Ford government despite scandals, and now she’s facing revolt in her own party.


If Stiles lasts until the next election as leader of the NDP and His Majesty’s Loyal opposition, it might be a miracle.

Ontario’s New Democratic Party is in utter turmoil over the ouster of Sarah Jama and the party’s stance on the Israel-Hamas war. So far, at least two riding associations have called for Jama to be reinstated and for Leader Marit Stiles to be placed on the outs.

Meanwhile, a prominent member of the NDP caucus, MPP for Toronto-St. Paul’s, has publicly stated she didn’t agree with removing Jama from caucus.


The decision to boot Jama, and even to call Hamas a terrorist organization, appears to be upsetting to many on the left. In addition to calls for Stiles to resign or face a leadership review, there are even calls for a new party on the left to replace the NDP, which the radicals think has become too mainstream while most voters still think of them as too radical.

“I did not support this decision for a variety of reasons,” MPP Jill Andrew said in a social media post.

“I learned about this decision on Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:11AM via email while sitting in my MPP seat in the legislature, when the decision was already made.”

Andrew, and the rest of the NDP caucus, including the now departed Jama, found out at about the same time as the media and the public.

Asked when she told Jama, Stiles said she made the decision Monday morning and informed Jama just before the vote to censure her.

The reason for kicking Jama out of caucus wasn’t actually her stance on Israel and Hamas, which should have been reason enough, it was, according to Stiles, that Jama had broken faith with caucus members. Jama had agreed to stay in the NDP caucus and not surprise the party’s leadership but then sued Doug Ford without mentioning it and gave a speech on Monday that inflamed tensions once again.



None of that mattered to the riding associations that want Jama to stay in the party, they just want the NDP to adopt Jama’s radical anti-Israel views.

“MPP Sarah Jama not only used her position at Queen’s Park to call for a ceasefire at Queen’s Park, she simultaneously stood up to Premier Ford’s muzzling dissenting voices about Israel and Palestine,” the Kitchener Centre NDP riding association said in a statement.

The Hamilton Centre NDP said that Stiles had decided to “remove the strongest voice of justice, truth and human rights from her caucus.”

Can Stiles withstand this kind of push, this kind of scrutiny?

She took over the Ontario NDP leadership in March after running an uncontested campaign to replace Andrea Horwath. There are certainly people on both sides of this clearly divided party who wish they had run or backed another candidate.


The most recent polling shows Stiles and the NDP tied with the leaderless Liberals at 24% of voter support despite all of Doug Ford’s problems, including the Greenbelt, seeing two ministers resign and more. If she is doing that badly before the Liberals pick their next leader, imagine how badly she will be doing after the Liberals vote.

If Bonnie Crombie wins, as most expect she will, Stiles will become an afterthought at Queen’s Park and the NDP, despite having far more seats than the Liberals, will be relegated to the hinterland.

Stiles has failed her first test of leadership in the most spectacular way, there is no coming back from this.

blilley@postmedia.com

Ontario PCs rebound despite RCMP investigation starting - Abacus Data

%

abacusdata.ca

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717488743580402063

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717558105960059297

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717224359889170586

LILLEY: Marit Stiles failing as NDP leader, won't last long

NDP leader tried to make everyone happy and may have lost the party as a result.

torontosun.com

 

[Serryah]

How many are there? How many “Wings” or “Divisions” of Hamas are there? In the Military “Wing” or “Division” I find this:
View attachment 19789
View attachment 19790

Which is less than you stated but yeah, that's what I found too.

Notice where it says numbers are "Disputed"? So, that number is an estimate. Could be higher, could be lower.

So….radicalized kids….that’re good boys

Did I say that they were "good boys"?

I said they were radicalized.

If all you've ever known is that kind'a shit belief you're going to still blame kids for doing what they're told?

Never, ever, judge people who are in a cult then because by your logic, they're all guilty.

and it’s Israel’s fault that they happened to have….for instance….invaded a rock concert of unarmed civilians, murdered 260+ there alone, raping others amid the copses, kidnapping anyone from babies to geriatrics for hostages, etc…and then….they went back to their boy scout camps?

Gonna be polite here and say, no, no that's NOT what I'm saying, Ron.

It IS Israel's fault for providing the CONDITIONS that led to their radicalization, that have given the youth members of Hamas no feeling of hope and driven them to believe Hamas word for word, because Israel has PROVEN Hamas right, at least in their situations.

Did "kids" cross into Israel and commit atrocities? Probably/yes. Did ALL of them rape? No. Did ALL of them kill people? No, maybe not. Did those kids cross over believing this was their ONLY choice/chance at freeing themselves? Absolutely. Did they cross for revenge of whatever wrongs Israel may have done to them? (bombings that killed innocents maybe in their family, for instance?) Most likely to absolutely.

Was Hamas TAKING ADVANTAGE of these kids? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY.

Do those kids know there is another way that this could be done, that they could maybe get freedom? Maybe, maybe not. Lots of them don't join Hamas but when you feel it's your only choice/chance...

What you are showing by this, Ron, is a total lack of empathy to their POV, and by missing that, you're siding with the parts of the world that think Israel is justified in EVERYTHING it does, when it is not.

If you’re killing people and raping others, you are no longer in the “kids” category.

Normally I'd agree, but a) we've no proof kids DID any rapes and b) as for killing, see above.

It does not make it RIGHT, but it does not warrant absolute eradication either.

Much like the number of hostages that they took, the numbers stated in Hamas are all over the place. If there’s 20,000 or 25,000 in their military “wing” alone, what’s in the “other wings?” Twelve?

What are these other "Wings"?

What Is Hamas?

The Palestinian militant group struggled to govern the Gaza Strip before launching a surprise attack on Israel in 2023. Now facing Israel’s military campaign to destroy it, Hamas’s future is in doubt…

www.cfr.org

Though I gotta laugh at their "update" to their beliefs in 2017.

Sure, let’s both be completely honest here.

Sure.

I can’t say where I would be mentally, but I can say that even without religion, I’m not up for raping anyone or murdering babies, but maybe that’s just me at the “grandfather” stage in my life, but I made it to this point without murdering children, or raping anybody….or having the desire to do so.

Neither am I.

I think that level of mentality defective psychopathic brokenness comes independent of religion…but religion seems to attract it as an organization to hide in like a police force or a union or what have you.

True. I won't argue with that.

There's a caveat though: when it comes to "fighting for one's freedom", when is it okay to fight and kill in the name of that freedom, vs. being considered a rebel or terrorist?

I’m the first to agree that there are times for physical violence as an answer in a corrective measure, but that stops before ‘intensional’ maiming or murder. Trust me when I say that God or Religion is not my governing factor.

So you would have objected to our being in either world war, and all conflict?

You would object to people fighting for their freedom, like those in Ukraine?

It does house the radicals in the moderates well, but that’s a choice.

Is it a choice though?

Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood as a military arm.

Interesting that the founder of Hamas " proposed a ceasefire with Israel on condition that they withdraw to 1967 borders and cease their policy of targeted assassinations."

Israel assassinated him.

And yes, you don't need to tell me that he was a fucking monster. But the moment he said "okay, let's try a ceasefire" Israel should have worked WITH him, considering his status as a spiritual leader. By assassinating him, they cemented Hamas' 'revenge' policy.

Back to the "it's a choice" thing, how can it be a "choice" given the situations Palestinians grow up in? Okay, sure, there's two choices - do nothing and hope/pray Israel somehow finds a soul to realize what it's doing is wrong (which wasn't happening), or stand up for freedom, fight back and maybe win some day. Depending on your situation, the later might be your ONLY choice (I imagine if Israel killed your family and you are the only survivor, what've you got to lose at that point?)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/heres-what-a-hamas-training-camp-for-teens-looks-like/2015/01/29/ef0b4092-a33f-11e4-9f89-561284a573f8_story.html

"Abu Hamza said that with more than 2,100 Palestinians killed in the summer war with Israel, "we have plenty who want to join. They want to retaliate. They want revenge. Especially those who lost a family member.""


And then this:

Israel-Hamas war: what happened in first few days and what caused the conflict?

Offensive launched from Gaza represented large failure of Israeli intelligence and is likely to have long-lasting repercussions

www.theguardian.com

"Does Hamas have the support of ordinary people in Gaza?
Many people in Gaza just want to get on with their lives, free from the blockade and repeated wars and conflicts. They resent the restrictions imposed on them and the fear instilled in them by Hamas rulers.

However, others are driven to take up arms by the lack of hope and the misery that is characteristic of life in Gaza. They see militant action as the only way of asserting themselves and fighting for a better future.

Support for Hamas has not been tested since the last elections in Gaza in 2006."

So, is it a choice? Really?

As an aside:

Before They Vowed to Annihilate Hamas, Israeli Officials Considered It an Asset

Hamas has long offered Israel an alibi to avoid abiding by its supposed commitment to Palestinian statehood.

theintercept.com

Israel was fine with Hamas, until now. Gave them an excuse to deny Palestinian Statehood.

Just a TAD bit suspect, really, if you want to be all conspiracy theory with it.

There’s accountability that doesn’t seem applicable or even expected with religion as an excuse, and solidarity with the radical elements by the moderates when convenient….

Convenient, or when the radical elements threaten them so they have to give in?


As an aside I came across this in the Guardian article from the above link and... Jesus Fuck, if this is true then yeah... I'm even LESS supportive of Israel than normal.



Why did Hamas and Islamic Jihad launch the attack?
The exact reasons for the attack are not clear, but there has been growing violence for months between Israeli soldiers and settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank. Armed settlers have attacked Palestinian villages; militants in the West Bank have attacked soldiers and settlers, and there have been repeated IDF raids on Palestinian cities.

During the past week, some Jews have prayed inside the compound of al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem’s Old City. The area around the mosque is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif and is the third holiest place for Islam after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia. To Jews, it is known as Temple Mount, and is venerated as the site of the biblical Jewish temple. Jews are not permitted to pray inside al-Aqsa compound; to do so is highly provocative. Hamas has called its current offensive Operation al-Aqsa Deluge.


To be honest I wondered why that was the name of this "operation".

And yes, I realize that it was too organized for it to be a spontaneous response to this sacrilegious act by the Jews who did this, but it gave Hamas the EXCUSE they needed and all I can say is WTF were these fucking idiots THINKING?

Israeli court upholds ban on Jewish prayer at Al Aqsa compound

An Israeli appeal court on Wednesday overruled a magistrate who had stirred Palestinian anger by questioning the legality of barring Jewish prayer at a contested Jerusalem shrine, as the United States warned its citizens over travel in the vicinity.

www.reuters.com

And then throw in this:

VeerOne

Your Brave New AI Companion - Elevate Your Experience with Advanced AI.

bnn.network

(also this: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot

So it's not only Palestinians that certain parts of Israeli society are against...)

 

[Serryah]

 

[petros]

Never, ever, judge people who are in a cult then because by your logic, they're all guilty.

A cult has a unified mindset so to anyone with logic they are all guilty.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Which is less than you stated but yeah, that's what I found too.

Yes, and the 25,000 or whatever are for the “Military Wing” and not the other wings…which would have personnel.

Notice where it says numbers are "Disputed"? So, that number is an estimate. Could be higher, could be lower.

Yes, and how many hostages were taken from Israel on October 7th? What’s “THE” not “Disputed” number? Is there one not “Disputed” number for either above?

Did I say that they were "good boys"?

I said they were radicalized.

Yep, but once you’re swinging with gangs or terrorist organizations, yes you’re radicalized, and no they’re not “kids” any longer.

If all you've ever known is that kind'a shit belief you're going to still blame kids for doing what they're told?

If we’re being honest, the term “Kids” doesn’t fit any longer once you’re a participant in the goat rodeo of Hamas.

Never, ever, judge people who are in a cult then because by your logic, they're all guilty.
Gonna be polite here and say, no, no that's NOT what I'm saying, Ron.

It IS Israel's fault for providing the CONDITIONS that led to their radicalization, that have given the youth members of Hamas no feeling of hope and driven them to believe Hamas word for word, because Israel has PROVEN Hamas right, at least in their situations.

Different eyes choose to see different things.

Did "kids" cross into Israel and commit atrocities? Probably/yes. Did ALL of them rape?

Does it matter if “All” of those involved raped?

No. Did ALL of them kill people?

Does it matter if “All” of those involved killed, tortured, etc…people?

No, maybe not. Did those kids cross over believing this was their ONLY choice/chance at freeing themselves?

Neither one of us knows their true motivations, (like a reward of $10,000 & an Apartment for each hostage brought back to Gaza from Israel regardless of nationality) but we can speculate, as we are both doing.

Absolutely. Did they cross for revenge of whatever wrongs Israel may have done to them? (bombings that killed innocents maybe in their family, for instance?) Most likely to absolutely.

Did they know that this would bring the wrath of….select your preferred term…onto the heads of the other Gaza citizens that Hamas hides in below or amongst? Absolutely?

Are those other citizens (not in Hamas) their friends and families and neighbours? Absolutely? Did they care in an empathetic manner about this? Your guess is as good as mine here.

Was Hamas TAKING ADVANTAGE of these kids? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY.

Completely concur with your assessment of that situation…. But Hamas isn’t “separate” from its militant “wing” of those that are out doing the raping, and the torturing and the murdering, and so on and so forth.

Do those kids know there is another way that this could be done, that they could maybe get freedom? Maybe, maybe not. Lots of them don't join Hamas but when you feel it's your only choice/chance...

What you are showing by this, Ron, is a total lack of empathy to their POV, and by missing that, you're siding with the parts of the world that think Israel is justified in EVERYTHING it does, when it is not.

Normally I'd agree, but a) we've no proof kids DID any rapes and b) as for killing, see above.

It does not make it RIGHT, but it does not warrant absolute eradication either.
What are these other "Wings"?

What Is Hamas?

The Palestinian militant group struggled to govern the Gaza Strip before launching a surprise attack on Israel in 2023. Now facing Israel’s military campaign to destroy it, Hamas’s future is in doubt…

www.cfr.org

Though I gotta laugh at their "update" to their beliefs in 2017.

Sure.
Neither am I.
True. I won't argue with that.

There's a caveat though: when it comes to "fighting for one's freedom", when is it okay to fight and kill in the name of that freedom, vs. being considered a rebel or terrorist?
So you would have objected to our being in either world war, and all conflict?

You would object to people fighting for their freedom, like those in Ukraine?
Is it a choice though?

Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood as a military arm.

Interesting that the founder of Hamas " proposed a ceasefire with Israel on condition that they withdraw to 1967 borders and cease their policy of targeted assassinations."

Israel assassinated him.

And yes, you don't need to tell me that he was a fucking monster. But the moment he said "okay, let's try a ceasefire" Israel should have worked WITH him, considering his status as a spiritual leader. By assassinating him, they cemented Hamas' 'revenge' policy.

Back to the "it's a choice" thing, how can it be a "choice" given the situations Palestinians grow up in? Okay, sure, there's two choices - do nothing and hope/pray Israel somehow finds a soul to realize what it's doing is wrong (which wasn't happening), or stand up for freedom, fight back and maybe win some day. Depending on your situation, the later might be your ONLY choice (I imagine if Israel killed your family and you are the only survivor, what've you got to lose at that point?)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/heres-what-a-hamas-training-camp-for-teens-looks-like/2015/01/29/ef0b4092-a33f-11e4-9f89-561284a573f8_story.html

"Abu Hamza said that with more than 2,100 Palestinians killed in the summer war with Israel, "we have plenty who want to join. They want to retaliate. They want revenge. Especially those who lost a family member.""


And then this:

Israel-Hamas war: what happened in first few days and what caused the conflict?

Offensive launched from Gaza represented large failure of Israeli intelligence and is likely to have long-lasting repercussions

www.theguardian.com

"Does Hamas have the support of ordinary people in Gaza?
Many people in Gaza just want to get on with their lives, free from the blockade and repeated wars and conflicts. They resent the restrictions imposed on them and the fear instilled in them by Hamas rulers.

However, others are driven to take up arms by the lack of hope and the misery that is characteristic of life in Gaza. They see militant action as the only way of asserting themselves and fighting for a better future.

Support for Hamas has not been tested since the last elections in Gaza in 2006."

So, is it a choice? Really?

As an aside:

Before They Vowed to Annihilate Hamas, Israeli Officials Considered It an Asset

Hamas has long offered Israel an alibi to avoid abiding by its supposed commitment to Palestinian statehood.

theintercept.com

Israel was fine with Hamas, until now. Gave them an excuse to deny Palestinian Statehood.

Just a TAD bit suspect, really, if you want to be all conspiracy theory with it.

Convenient, or when the radical elements threaten them so they have to give in?
As an aside I came across this in the Guardian article from the above link and... Jesus Fuck, if this is true then yeah... I'm even LESS supportive of Israel than normal.

Why did Hamas and Islamic Jihad launch the attack?
The exact reasons for the attack are not clear, but there has been growing violence for months between Israeli soldiers and settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank. Armed settlers have attacked Palestinian villages; militants in the West Bank have attacked soldiers and settlers, and there have been repeated IDF raids on Palestinian cities.

During the past week, some Jews have prayed inside the compound of al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem’s Old City. The area around the mosque is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif and is the third holiest place for Islam after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia. To Jews, it is known as Temple Mount, and is venerated as the site of the biblical Jewish temple. Jews are not permitted to pray inside al-Aqsa compound; to do so is highly provocative. Hamas has called its current offensive Operation al-Aqsa Deluge.

To be honest I wondered why that was the name of this "operation".

And yes, I realize that it was too organized for it to be a spontaneous response to this sacrilegious act by the Jews who did this, but it gave Hamas the EXCUSE they needed and all I can say is WTF were these fucking idiots THINKING?

Israeli court upholds ban on Jewish prayer at Al Aqsa compound

An Israeli appeal court on Wednesday overruled a magistrate who had stirred Palestinian anger by questioning the legality of barring Jewish prayer at a contested Jerusalem shrine, as the United States warned its citizens over travel in the vicinity.

www.reuters.com

And then throw in this:

VeerOne

Your Brave New AI Companion - Elevate Your Experience with Advanced AI.

bnn.network

(also this: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot

So it's not only Palestinians that certain parts of Israeli society are against...)

 

[Serryah]

Yes, and the 25,000 or whatever are for the “Military Wing” and not the other wings…which would have personnel.

Sure; the 25K - or less - from the Military Wing. But that's not confirmed, again. So it could be more, or less. Just saying.

Yes, and how many hostages were taken from Israel on October 7th?

Last estimated count I saw was 224ish.

What’s “THE” not “Disputed” number? Is there one not “Disputed” number for either above?

No.

Even the number of hostages has varied.

Yep, but once you’re swinging with gangs or terrorist organizations, yes you’re radicalized, and no they’re not “kids” any longer.

Wow. Okay then.

If we’re being honest, the term “Kids” doesn’t fit any longer once you’re a participant in the goat rodeo of Hamas.

In your opinion, sure, that's true.

It's not mine.

There is a difference to me. Because if we DON'T apply a difference between situations like Hamas, then we don't get to apply any 'conditions' to any "kid" who does something wrong and we should just kill them all.

I see those who are 'kids' that join Hamas no different than Child Soldiers. And if we don't give the Palestinian kids a pass, we don't get to do the same for Child Soldiers.

All should be slaughtered then.

And I can't do that, I can't support that belief.

Different eyes choose to see different things.

True, proof being this convo.

Does it matter if “All” of those involved raped?

Absolutely it does. Even by legal standards it would.

Does it matter if “All” of those involved killed, tortured, etc…people?

Absolutely it does. Even by legal standards it would.

Neither one of us knows their true motivations, (like a reward of $10,000 & an Apartment for each hostage brought back to Gaza from Israel regardless of nationality) but we can speculate, as we are both doing.

That's true.

But we can also find examples and provide those as the motivations for why SOME do this.

Did they know that this would bring the wrath of….select your preferred term…onto the heads of the other Gaza citizens that Hamas hides in below or amongst? Absolutely?

Upper leadership of Hamas? Absolutely and to think not is being in denial.

Those lower down (the "kids" people don't give a fuck about?) maybe, maybe not? After all, to use the excuse of certain aspects of society "a brain is not fully developed enough until 23-25".

Now, personally? It's likely they do know regardless of age what could happen or is likely to happen. But this is a military with leadership so who knows the 'reasons' that they tell them for doing things. Until someone comes out to say so, we won't know.

Are those other citizens (not in Hamas) their friends and families and neighbours? Absolutely?

I would think so, but who knows?

Did they care in an empathetic manner about this? Your guess is as good as mine here.

That's true, your guess is as good as mine.

We're also looking at this like outsiders who live in a totally different country and culture.

I think the difference though is I take those into account - other people do not. Which makes for these problems in understanding the situation.

Completely concur with your assessment of that situation…. But Hamas isn’t “separate” from its militant “wing” of those that are out doing the raping, and the torturing and the murdering, and so on and so forth.

Maybe, maybe not? Sure it's not likely to be separate.

But that doesn't mean all Hamas agree with what happened. And in the end that is my point of it all; you cannot lump all of Palestine in with Hamas, and maybe not even all of those who are part of Hamas into what happened (at least for the Hamas part, until there's proof every single individual agreed with it).


In the end, Ron, the question is: was Israel justified to retaliate against the attack perpetuated by Hamas on the 7th.

Answer: Yes.

But there IS more to follow that up. Is Israel - especially after supporting Hamas for so long in its own way, and for provocations towards Palestine that no Israeli citizen could not know would push for retaliation - JUST as at fault for provocation of attack by Hamas who they know is extremest and a terrorist organization?

Answer: Yes.

Which boils this down to the Three Generation Rule: it no longer matters WHO is at fault because there will ALWAYS be "one side provoking the other" or one side giving "reasons" to attack the other.

The ONLY way to properly view the situation is to blame BOTH sides for this bloodshed and recognize that NEITHER side wants any peace or stability at all. Not Israel. Not Palestine (specifically the Gaza Strip). Denying or ignoring that reality just perpetuates the violence, regardless of whose "side" you end up on in your denialism.

 

[Dixie Cup]

Where do the Hamas 30,000 to 50,000 people come from in Gaza depending on what numbers you wish to believe? Palestinians aren’t necessarily Hamas, but Hamas (for the most part) would be Palestinians.

If anybody looks at Muslim Refugees coming into their country with open eyes, it’s probably going to be other Muslim dominant nations….or Poland?

??????

??????

They don't want Palestinians any more than we do. Egypt for example doesn't want anything to do with the Palestinians because they're nothing but trouble. They're refusing to allow Palestinians to escape to Egypt for this very reason.

 

[Ron in Regina]

It's because Israel should know better. Hamas does not..

…& that’s the expectation & justification rolled into one.

Terrorism? Political Instability that would be imported with those hiding in with Gaza refugees? Why import people who’s only goal (mixed in amongst any refugees) is to overthrow governments?

They balance that against humanitarianism and solidarity with Allah, weigh and measure, and…

…And they still "don't want them".

Why do YOU think that is, Ron?

Because it’s too difficult to separate “Hamas-ish” Palestinians from other Gaza Palestinians…?

There's already Palestinians in Jordan and elsewhere, and they are not the 'overthrow the government' kinds.

After the 1967 Six-Day War, Palestinian fedayeen guerrillas relocated to Jordan and stepped up their attacks on Israel and the occupied territories. They were headquartered at the Jordanian border town of Karameh, which Israel targeted during a battle in 1968, leading to a surge of Arab support for the fedayeen. The PLO's strength grew, and by early 1970, groups within the PLO began calling for the overthrow of Jordan's Hashemite monarchy, leading to violent clashes in June 1970.

Black September - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're blending Hamas to = Palestinians.

Where do the Hamas in Gaza come from? Are they all “imports” from Iran (?) or are they from the local population predominately?

It’s shitty. It really is, but it’s the reality in the neighborhood and the above is just an example of why “Palestine’s” neighbours just aren’t interested. “F*uck’em! We stand in solidarity, but not at having them as potential housemates….let France or Italy or Sweden or Ireland house them and we’ll stand in solidarity with Palestine from a distance!!”

Anyway, here’s some interviews with the kids:

 

[Serryah]

…& that’s the expectation & justification rolled into one.

That doesn't mean it's not valid.

And the full quote is: "It's because Israel should know better. Hamas does not because it's existence is based in terrorism"

The world expects Israel to know better, because it SHOULD, since it loves to say it's a modern society and considering it's own history you'd think they of all people would be adverse to repeating it.

Hamas does not know better because it's based on terrorism that's lasted generations. How CAN it know better when all the people in and around them have known oppression and apartheid?

Because it’s too difficult to separate “Hamas-ish” Palestinians from other Gaza Palestinians…?

Yes, and you know what. Thank you.

Because now we can ask how does Israel, do you think, plan to separate "Hamas-ish" Palestinians from Gaza Palestinians?

They aren't going to.

They are going to wipe them all out, or as many as they can, because "they could be Hamas".

Kind'a like how the US tried to do to the Vietnamese. You see how well THAT worked?

Where do the Hamas in Gaza come from? Are they all “imports” from Iran (?) or are they from the local population predominately?

Both most likely.

It’s shitty. It really is, but it’s the reality in the neighborhood and the above is just an example of why “Palestine’s” neighbours just aren’t interested. “F*uck’em! We stand in solidarity, but not at having them as potential housemates….let France or Italy or Sweden or Ireland house them and we’ll stand in solidarity with Palestine from a distance!!”

Don't make it into that's the only reason, Ron, you know the other reasons why there's issues and not just distinguishing Hamas from regular Palestinians.

Anyway, here’s some interviews with the kids:

I'll see the video later.

The second part of this video segment was interesting, where Chris talks about people from Israel telling their own government "Not in my name". Maybe that government should fucking listen.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Serryah, you do realize, that in Gaza, Hamas & their supporters, would choose you to be thrown off a building “for your beliefs” and I’m not talking about religion. Much as you have sympathy and empathy for them, that wouldn’t be reciprocated.

My afternoon is getting busy too. I’ll catch your above video later ‘em when time permits.

 

[Serryah]

Serryah, you do realize, that in Gaza, Hamas & their supporters, would choose you to be thrown off a building “for your beliefs” and I’m not talking about religion. Much as you have sympathy and empathy for them, that wouldn’t be reciprocated.

I'm well aware of my likely "demise" if I lived there.

Why do you think I wouldn't know otherwise?

By saying that, do you expect me to suddenly stop and say "Oh, oh well in that case, death to them all regardless because I want to be a monster like others who condemn other people regardless"?

I am NOT built like that. While my empathy has limits, I still have it. I am very much able to put myself into another's shoes, as it were. TOO often, actually, that it's frequently bit me in the ass. But I still do it.

That's WHY I can see both sides of this.

And why it pisses me off so much I write BOTH sides off.

Because I will NOT be like them.

A person who CANNOT see the other side.

Put it this way; of more people sided with Hamas instead of Israel, likely I'd be this argumentative over Israel against them. (See Torchy for example).

And you know, saying all that, Ron... all I feel I can say is really? Fucking really?

 

[Serryah]

Anyway, here’s some interviews with the kids:

One, these aren't kids.

Two, you expect me to say what, that what they did wasn't horrible?

It's beyond disgusting and that they killed people, and admit it, IMO they should receive the same sentence.

Had they raped anyone too, well I'd be more violent than just killing them.

Not sure what this video was to prove.

 

[spaminator]

Former Toronto mayoral candidate accused of hate-motivated attack
The suspected anti-Semitic assault allegedly erupted when another woman complained about the removal of Israeli hostage posters


Author of the article:Joe Warmington
Published Oct 27, 2023 • Last updated 22 hours ago • 3 minute read
Selina Mew-Siew Chan, 40, is accused of a hate-motivated assault in the city's Financial District on Wednesday, Oct. 25, 2023.
Selina Mew-Siew Chan, 40, is accused of a hate-motivated assault in the city's Financial District on Wednesday, Oct. 25, 2023. PHOTO BY SELINA CHAN /X
A former mayoral candidate is accused of an allegedly hate-motivated, anti-Semitic assault sparked by a dispute over posters of Israeli hostages kidnapped during the Oct. 7th Hamas massacre.


“The victim was in front of her residence when she saw the accused removing materials, in support of Israel, from phone posts,” Toronto Police alleged Friday.


“The victim approached the accused and asked her what she was doing,” police claimed, explaining the accused then allegedly “asked the victim if she was Jewish.”

Police claim the alleged victim began to record video of the encounter with the accused near Bay and Richmond Sts. on Wednesday and then she was assaulted.

Selina Mew-Siew Chan, 40, is charged with assault and “after consultation with the Service’s specialized Hate Crime Unit, the investigation is being treated as a suspected hate-motivated offence,” police said.




Chan is expected to appear in court at 10 Armoury St. on Dec. 19.

Her name may seem familiar – she is known in the community as Selina Chan, a candidate for mayor who received more than 2,000 votes in the 2014 election that put John Tory in office.

On Friday, she took to social media with photos of bruises she claims were suffered during her arrest and to indicate she has filed a complaint with the Office of the Independent Review Director over what she called “excessive force.”



Chan also claimed her innocence.

“The accusation that my actions were hate-motivated are false,” Chan posted on X. “I am protecting my community from these posters and these people – she is the one who should be arrested.”



In an interview with the Toronto Sun, Chan said, “I believe it’s politically motivated.”

“I was taking down these Israel posters on a pole, right outside of my house, because somebody had surrounded my building with them overnight and I believe it’s same people who saw me taking them down a few days earlier and who I believed followed me home,” she admitted. “So I freaked out, I don’t want these posters up because I believe they are indicating my building is a target, so I took them down.”

Chan said a confrontation ensued when someone came up to her and asked, “Why are you taking my posters down?”

Chan claims she “calmly responded, ‘Because they are not real. I think they are hateful war propaganda that are trying to justify a genocide.'”


“She put her phone in my face, so I knocked her phone so she would stop recording me,” Chan alleged of the other woman. “But she called police and said I injured her.”

Chan admits she did ask the woman if she was Jewish.

On X she posted, “I asked her if she was Jewish because I suspected that is why she was so irrationally upset.”



The one-time photographer, who explained she has not worked in the field for several years because of illness, added she believes “it’s the nature of the posters and the fact I asked her if she was Jewish is all they are going on, I believe, in terms of the alleged hate crime.”

“I don’t think that is anti-Semitic at all” and in fact” it’s the opposite – the poster is a hate crime,” Chan contended.

It’s a messy and difficult time in the city.

Toronto Police Chief Myron Demkiw and Deputy Chief Lauren Pogue have made it clear the service will purse hate-crime charges where warranted.

Pogue reminded Friday that with video, such charges could be laid long after an event is over.

The case against Chan has not been tested in court, so she is innocent until proven guilty. She deserves and full hearing and no one is suggesting otherwise.


But for the Jewish community, hate crime investigations being taken seriously is appreciated.

“Unfortunately, anti-Semitic assaults are to be expected when weeks of incitement against the Jewish community are permitted to take place,” B’nai Brith Canada CEO Michael Mostyn said, who thanked police for their “ongoing diligence to ensure the safety of the Jewish community.”

Mostyn reminds “hateful words lead to hateful actions” and “the war of words against the Jewish state can have sinister consequences for Canadian Jewry, and this cannot be permitted to continue.”

Toronto Police agree.

jwarmington@postmedia.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717971065652003105

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717971666226032722

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1718024164236308984

WARMINGTON: Former Toronto mayoral candidate accused of hate-motivated attack

A former mayoral candidate is accused of an allegedly anti-Semitic assault sparked by a dispute over posters of Israelis kidnapped by Hamas.

torontosun.com