Freeman creating policing problems here too

[Ron in Regina]

Nick, in the group you're involved with (& maybe the guy I'm familiar with is on the
fringes even for this movement), avoiding such things as Education & Health taxes
tied into the mill rate via property taxes, etc...if one of them has a heart attack, does
he/she/it just suck it up, or do they go to a hospital. What if one of their kids gets
sick? Do their children go to public school? Did they? Do any of them either go to
or have ever gone to a library? Do they drive their unregistered vehicles on public
roads that where built and are maintained with public funds? I could go on, but do
you see the theme that I'm try'n to display?

The 'free' things that all of society pays into for their common usage. Those things...

Maybe it's just my take on this, but the line between 'Freeman' & 'Freeloader' blurs for me
on this issue. Taken a step further, with the effort to tie up the court system (at the tax
payers further expense) with quasi-legal B.S. due to the entitlement of "I'd rather not pay
you Tuesday for that hamberger today 'cuz your rules don't apply to me!" thing is irksome
at best.

 

[Goober]

Thee are several things the "Freemen" are right about, just not all of it.

Would that be responsibility for oneself – and accountable for their own actions- But when it comes down to it. The Law is the law.
If someone wants to opt out, emigrate.

 

[Cliffy]

Would that be responsibility for oneself – and accountable for their own actions- But when it comes down to it. The Law is the law.
If someone wants to opt out, emigrate.

The law is not necessarily the law. They do have a point about assumptions that are accepted by most, but have no basis in reality. Just because they don't follow the same rules you subscribe to is no reason to tell them to leave the country. In the end, they are helping you clarify where the law runs beyond its jurisdiction.

 

[Goober]

The law is not necessarily the law. They do have a point about assumptions that are accepted by most, but have no basis in reality. Just because they don't follow the same rules you subscribe to is no reason to tell them to leave the country. In the end, they are helping you clarify where the law runs beyond its jurisdiction.

That is why we have a SCoC. They want to be free of the rules of society- then they should emigrate.

Anti-government

 

[Cliffy]

That is why we have a SCoC. They want to be free of the rules of society- then they should emigrate.

Anti-government

Do you have another planet in mind?

 

[Goober]

Do you have another planet in mind?

Well I did not want to use magenta- They have nowheres to go. Welcome to Society- whether they like it or not.:smile:

 

[L Gilbert]

An anti-government movement known as Freeman on the Land has become a “major policing problem” in several provinces, according to a threat assessment by Canada’s spy officials.

The report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service lists Freeman members among “domestic extremists” who associate with issue-based causes, such as environmentalism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalization and far-right racism.

Its adherents fall on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum, but “at the core” of the movement is the belief that “government operates outside of its legal jurisdiction and therefore Freeman members do not recognize the authority of national, provincial, or municipal laws, policies or regulations,” says the report, titled Canada: Biannual Update on Terrorist and Extremist Threats, which was prepared in April and released under federal access-to-information laws.

“Freeman members now constitute a major policing problem in several provinces and have occasionally engaged in acts of violence against the police,” the report states.

In various videos posted online, supporters of the Freeman movement in Canada – including outspoken advocate Robert Menard – reject any association with violent extremism and insist they are “peaceful and loving.”

Law enforcement officials are not convinced.


Follow Freeman!


Freeman on the Land movement creates

Dingbats abound.

Like Goob says, we have a society: like it and be useful and sensibly change it or lump it and either leave or STFU.

 

[damngrumpy]

First of all I know a few people who believe they can pretty much do as they please.
The problem is when it comes to a head, people will find out its not applied its the law.
The Supreme Court will rule in favour of the Governments, the reason they aer ruling
in favour of stability.
The governments are not moving on this because its not on their radar yet until they
discover people are not paying the tax money they want collected then freeman on the
land will pay even more with penalties.
The real problem here is the policing agencies as I see it. They lump these people in
with acceptable groups not to spy on the freeman on the land but to gain access to the
other groups they want to look into Environmentalists. I am one up to a point so I must
have a file. Anti Capitalism, in some cases I am, depending on the actions of some
profit making groups. I also realize that without capitalism we would not have the advances
in products and science we have. but I would still be subject to a file.
Anti Globalism here is where I am in a lot of trouble, I am opposed to the globalization of
trade as the number one method of doing business. I believe that companies doing business
must be responsible to the people they serve and the good of the country must come before
all other considerations, and legislation is required oops another file.
Now throwing right wing racists in is just for colour commentary. There are left wing racists
too, I know of one at least. Yup another file.
Doesn't matter if you are not a terrorist by the standards of spy agencies you are on the fringe
of any of these groups they want to do a file.
The problem is freeman on the land not obeying the law or the laws we don't like more like it
its the fact the police can use the labels to spy on who ever they want for the good of the
country. Personally Freeman on the land should be shown how the law works and how its
applied fairly or not, and demonstrate they will pay and be prosecuted for any offences they
have been part of.

 

[petros]

then they should emigrate.

To where?

What is "emigration" and what happens under international laws when you do emigrate?

Why do somethings follow you from country to country and still hold the status they held in Canada?

Things like a diploma, criminal record, credit rating, signature and birth certificate are all still the same world wide. Why?

Why can't you untie yourself from those things by simply moving to another country?

How is that freeing yourself from the paper you?

Why are you like a car that needs to be registered if you wish to operate on the land or sea?

Is it criminal to operate a you without "registration" and "social insurance" in Canada?

Are you a car?

Material goods of some sorts?

Commercial goods?

A living, breathing, thinking human with a consciousness?

The problem is freeman on the land not obeying the law or the laws.

What are laws? Are they the same as acts, and statutes?

 

[CDNBear]

When I first learned of the Freemen years ago, it interested me. Doing a little research I found out the following...

The movement is ridiculous.

The "Freemen", idiots.

They have a child like understanding of government. Foist the most absurd arguments to support their idiotic beliefs. Have less than a limited understanding of the law. The latter having been well documented on this very site.

Do you have another planet in mind?

Given that they're space cadets, how apropos.

 

[SLM]

You obviously know noting about the movement itself and only a few snippets about some of the more radical persons on the fringes. The main body of the movement is actually about freedom from oppressive govt and personal responsibility for yourself & your actions without 'big brother' controlling you. We are not throwing tantrums but claiming as long as we are not infringing on your rights we can control ourselves and do not have to live by the laws you agree to live by because we choose not to have them imposed upon us by force.

You cannot choose which laws you can abide by and which you cannot and still take part in the benefits that society offers through government not by government. You are either a part of society and participate in it or you are opposed to society and work against it. As Ron pointed out, one cannot eschew automobile insurance or taxes as an oppressive means of control yet still take a vehicle out onto road paid for by public tax dollars. Collective monies of those in who live in society are the ones paying for that benefit, not the government. Those that do, that choose to simply buck the system instead of working to change the system, are being selfish. They are taking the benefit paid for by the group without contributing to the cost of it. That is absolutely no different than the teenager who decides he or she does not have to live by the rules of the house but still expects to be fed and clothed.

By all means, join a political movement/group to change the rules of society that you may deem to be unfair and unjust, but simply deciding not to follow them is a huge slap in the face to that society.

The other thing I notice in this thread is a belief that freemen want to have benefit off the govt programs without paying for them. That is incorrect. Those radicals that choose to go 'off the grid' will use the phrase "waive the benefit & claim the right" which means they do not claim EI or welfare etc.

Forget this 'government benefits' b.s., these are societal benefits. Hospitals, roadways, municipal infrastructure, education, etc. Unless you are living in some very remote track of land and you never, ever leave you are, at some point or another, enjoying some of the benefits of society.

 

[CDNBear]

Hence the use of the word "childlike".

You have the "Freemen" pegged perfectly.

 

[tay]

The CBC covered them last March. The Canadian version is just piggy backing on the 'true Tea Party peoples' story. The Libertarion mind set is no rules, the strongest or most capable survive and keep govt out of my way...................




Freemen movement captures Canadian police attention - Canada - CBC News

 

[PoliticalNick]

The blind acceptance of invasive laws that are outside the constitutional mandate of govt shown by some here is amazing. The whole attitude shown of 'be part of our group (society) or get out' is ridiculous. My inalienable and declared human rights say I cannot be forced to join any group so why should I be forced to join your group? If you force me to join is that not a type of slavery? These are the type of questions & things the group I work with are dealing with. As I see it if 99/100 people want to walk north they still don't have a 'right' to force that 1 person to follow them and that is the philosophy we try to establish. Of course that 1 person foregoes the protection and benefits of being with the 99/100 but they should have a legitimate choice to not follow.

 

[CDNBear]

The blind acceptance of invasive laws that are outside the constitutional mandate of govt shown by some here is amazing.

It is?

Can you point out an example?

All I see here is people posting opinions of a movement that has less intellectual capacity the that of the OWS movement.

The whole attitude shown of 'be part of our group (society) or get out' is ridiculous.

I agree. Why do you forward that opinion about First Nations than?

My inalienable and declared human rights say I cannot be forced to join any group so why should I be forced to join your group?

If you force me to join is that not a type of slavery?

You aren't being forced. You voluntarily live here, benefiting from the whole.

These are the type of questions & things the group I work with are dealing with.

LOL. Not very well apparently.

As I see it if 99/100 people want to walk north they still don't have a 'right' to force that 1 person to follow them and that is the philosophy we try to establish.

No it isn't, lol.

Of course that 1 person foregoes the protection and benefits of being with the 99/100 but they should have a legitimate choice to not follow.

Your inconsistency backs up the opinions expressed about the childlike views of the Freeman movement.

 

[Goober]

The blind acceptance of invasive laws that are outside the constitutional mandate of govt shown by some here is amazing. The whole attitude shown of 'be part of our group (society) or get out' is ridiculous. My inalienable and declared human rights say I cannot be forced to join any group so why should I be forced to join your group? If you force me to join is that not a type of slavery? These are the type of questions & things the group I work with are dealing with. As I see it if 99/100 people want to walk north they still don't have a 'right' to force that 1 person to follow them and that is the philosophy we try to establish. Of course that 1 person foregoes the protection and benefits of being with the 99/100 but they should have a legitimate choice to not follow.

Every society – civilization has rules and laws. Otherwise it would be chaos. If a person does not want to abide by societies rules- Fine- But be prepared to pay the price.

 

[petros]

Every society – civilization has rules and laws. Otherwise it would be chaos. If a person does not want to abide by societies rules- Fine- But be prepared to pay the price.

Laws and rules are not one in the same. I doubt there is a truly 100% law abiding citizen.

We are all guilty and all should leave Canada immediately because we're all criminals going by what I've read on here.

 

[JLM]

Every society – civilization has rules and laws. Otherwise it would be chaos. If a person does not want to abide by societies rules- Fine- But be prepared to pay the price.

That is fair, you obey the law until such time as you can get it changed!

Laws and rules are not one in the same. I doubt there is a truly 100% law abiding citizen.

We are all guilty and all should leave Canada immediately because we're all criminals going by what I've read on here.

Nah, I think we should stay in Canada just for our safety, what some of us do here you can be hanged or shot in many other countries. -

 

[Goober]

Laws and rules are not one in the same. I doubt there is a truly 100% law abiding citizen.

We are all guilty and all should leave Canada immediately because we're all criminals going by what I've read on here.

Is that a resaonable comparison? No it is not.

 

[SLM]

The blind acceptance of invasive laws that are outside the constitutional mandate of govt shown by some here is amazing. The whole attitude shown of 'be part of our group (society) or get out' is ridiculous. My inalienable and declared human rights say I cannot be forced to join any group so why should I be forced to join your group? If you force me to join is that not a type of slavery? These are the type of questions & things the group I work with are dealing with. As I see it if 99/100 people want to walk north they still don't have a 'right' to force that 1 person to follow them and that is the philosophy we try to establish. Of course that 1 person foregoes the protection and benefits of being with the 99/100 but they should have a legitimate choice to not follow.

I see a lot of 'should have' or 'choice' mentioned in a lot of 'what if' scenarios, but tell me how, functionally, an individual or group of individuals can actually exist outside of society but within society. There will inevitably be conflict. Do we allow for everyone to pick which laws and rules to follow? Say some douchebag doesn't want to follow the law against rape, should he have the legitimate choice to do so? Or is it only selective laws one should not be allowed to follow? Who chooses those laws? What if we disagree on which laws should be allowed to be chosen?

It has to be an all or nothing game otherwise it is not equitable. It may at times seem or even be unfair on an individual basis, but it is always equitable.