First Nations, Stone aged or Leaders in Democracy?

JLM

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"Cliffy said, in response to my post:

"You're hitting below the belt there, Y.J. and besides you don't know what you are talking about. My wife and kids all have native blood, but to see them on the street you might not recognize that. More to the point they are just as industrious and intelligent as you are. And they have the added advantage of knowing when to keep their mouths shut.""

I searched through all the posts Y.J. and I couldn't find a post by Cliffy that said anything of the sort, I think you are spewing bull sh*t, Y.J. When are you going to answer my questions about "right wing"?
 

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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Pearl of wisdom from JLM in his post #82:

"I searched through all the posts Y.J. and I couldn't find a post by Cliffy that said anything of the sort, I think you are spewing bull sh*t, Y.J."

JLM, I quoted Cliffy from his post # 52 on this thread.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Pearl of wisdom from JLM in his post #82:

"I searched through all the posts Y.J. and I couldn't find a post by Cliffy that said anything of the sort, I think you are spewing bull sh*t, Y.J."

JLM, I quoted Cliffy from his post # 52 on this thread.

Cliffy didn't post #52.
 

L Gilbert

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You're hitting below the belt there, Y.J. and besides you don't know what you are talking about. My wife and kids all have native blood, but to see them on the street you might not recognize that. More to the point they are just as industrious and intelligent as you are. And they have the added advantage of knowing when to keep their mouths shut.
Quite right, he's talking through his hat.
My wife has a Bach in Anthropology and has run a business for almost 13 years. My youngest has a Bach in Health Science and is finishing her ENPC course and may get her Master's. Our other daughter has her own business.
As I said before, ethnicity, religiosity, political preference, geographical location, gender, skin color, etc. are not indicators of level of intelligence.
 

YukonJack

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"Thank you Y.J. - I think making no mistake is more of a credit than making an honest one."

Thank YOU, JLM! In the future I will make every effort to be perfect like you.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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What is the OP...?
Opening Post.

This is a retrospective look at things. In the 17th and 18th centuries, the two societies were extremely segregated. Where are the 18th century meetings and conferences to justify this? This is history with too much story and too few facts. It is a harmless resolution, saying nothing but exuding warm feelings.
This topic is hotly debated among men with alphabets folloing or proceding their names, so I doubt you and I are going to come to some monumental realization on a web forum, lol. I say we did have an influence, you state otherwise. I state that until the Europeans met us 'Iroquois' there was no other similar model, but here we are today with virtually the same thing, including the US Seal.

These are all arguable notions, I know that. It's from my perspective and I can admit, I'm biased, lol.

I have read books from the 17th and 18th centuries discussing how happy many English colonials were to live with aboriginals. Even English colonials kidnapped by Indians would not go back to their previous life when found or recaptured. These however were isolated events.
This is true, but Franklin became involved with the 'Iroquois' during the Treaty porcess, via Conrad Weiser.

Actually, you can read what I would have typed out here...

Haudenosaunee Confederacy

I have many more, including the Library of Congress if you wish to view them.

Just like Europeans calling Indians brothers. Usually it is only people paid by the gov't who say this. You have to be careful what the gov't says.
That's an understatement, lol.

You write "eluding to self accountability ..." if you mean mean eluding it means to avoid, the word you want I think is alluding, to mean to refer. Many acts have been done I don't approve of and I still have to get used to them. I can't sit on the sidelines. I wish I could.
You would be correct, my bad, i sometimes swap similar words in error.

What kind of "hand up" do you have in mind?
Self governance, and I know this is a sticking point, with sovereign association and the accrued interest and allowance of our trust held by the Fed's, as well as the financial duty with regards to our Treaties. Now remember, if we could in some way govern ourselves, we remove the necessity of the MIA, and all the interprovincial multiplication of services. This would be a money saver. The only real issue I see, is the ability to govern ourselves accordingly.

I'm not optomistic.
 

L Gilbert

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Yo!! Remember the stuff about natives and democracy?
Anyway, democracy is overblown and just as unattainable as communism.

Thoreau asserts that because governments are typically more harmful than helpful, they therefore cannot be justified. Democracy is no cure for this, as majorities simply by virtue of being majorities do not also gain the virtues of wisdom and justice. The judgment of an individual’s conscience is not necessarily or even likely inferior to the decisions of a political body or majority, and so “t is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.… Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice.”
Indeed, he points out, you serve your country poorly if you do so by suppressing your conscience in favor of the law because your country needs consciences more than it needs conscienceless robots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)#cite_note-5
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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lol I meant "overblown" as in "overstated". Thoreau's and my point is just because most people want it doesn't make it just or wise.
I know, I'm just not in the mood to be all serious at the moment and your use of the word 'overblown' made me think of...well...you know, lol...;-)
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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"Democracy is the tyranny of the majority" - I forget who said that but I agree. The old council of elders worked well but I discovered that in these time, age has little to do with wisdom as many are just as dumb as they were most of their lives. How does one become wise in an insane society of mindless consumers, where integrity is just a word that few understand or emulate.
 

L Gilbert

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"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections."
-- J E E D Acton
I like Mencken's comment:
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."

 

L Gilbert

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G B Shaw said, "Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

Lord Acton also said,
"It is bad to be oppressed by a minority, but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority...from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason."


Here's a good point:
"The people as a body cannot deliberate. Nevertheless, they will feel an irresistible impulse to act, and their resolutions will be dictated to them by their demagogues... and the violent men, who are the most forward to gratify those passions, will be their favorites. What is called the government of the people is in fact too often the arbitrary power of such men. Here, then, we have the faithful portrait of democracy." - Fisher Ames

 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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"Democracy is the tyranny of the majority" - I forget who said that but I agree. The old council of elders worked well but I discovered that in these time, age has little to do with wisdom as many are just as dumb as they were most of their lives. How does one become wise in an insane society of mindless consumers, where integrity is just a word that few understand or emulate.


Ethan Lee Vita said it.
 

EagleSmack

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This is one of the aspects that the Native Americans have my respect.
When they did go to war they didn't wipe out a whole tribe , they took the little ones as their own. I have yet to hear of any culture to do that.

So basically they wiped out all of the adults and took the little ones after they killed their parents.

Gee that was awfully nice of them.