First Nations, Stone aged or Leaders in Democracy?

[CDNBear]

You are nitpicking. I stand by my original comment. Really though, what does it matter?

Given your position, and our ability to communicate with one another, I thought it would be an interesting exchange. I was also hoping to change your mind, lol...;-)

I don't care what level of technology or social structure was achieved by the aboriginal people (other than in the interest of history) 50, 500 or 5000 years ago. I'm not one to look backwards.

Neither am I, but I also believe that one should know their past. If you fail to acknowledge history, you're bound to repeat it. Not that that is directed at you in any way.

But I will say that your use of the term stone age is misplaced. It's to broad a term and antiquated at best. Not to mention it was a term formed and applied to a completely different region and people. In archeological circles, it is not used to describe First Nations. That is not nitpicking, it's just the facts. Science changes with the times and as new and more profound evidence and facts come to light, perception must follow. Or be left to stagnate in antiquity.

 

[Trex]

Quote
Not that I have an education in archeology, but I thought that the stone age was Paleolithic? In some cases considered the Upper Paleolithic era.
Unquote

Its debatable CDN Bear.

Palaeolithic tends to mean very early man.
The Paleo peoples were the original mammoth hunters.
In North America that would tend to be 9,000 to possibly 15,000 years ago.
Typically the Paleo peoples were identified by their points, like Clovis and Folsom although there were other styles.

Neolithic is a little later and more advanced.
Neolithic peoples were the groups who were moving into agriculture, social structures, smelting and written languages.
Stuff like that.
Early Neolithic could still be considered "Stone Age" but these guys in North America were moving past that and starting to rapidly develop.

No way could natives in North America be considered Paleo people at the time of the discovery of North America by the Euro's.

Trex
.

 

[CDNBear]

Quote
Not that I have an education in archeology, but I thought that the stone age was Paleolithic? In some cases considered the Upper Paleolithic era.
Unquote

Its debatable CDN Bear.

Palaeolithic tends to mean very early man.
The Paleo peoples were the original mammoth hunters.
In North America that would tend to be 9,000 to possibly 15,000 years ago.
Typically the Paleo peoples were identified by their points, like Clovis and Folsom although there were other styles.

Neolithic is a little later and more advanced.
Neolithic peoples were the groups who were moving into agriculture, social structures, smelting and written languages.
Stuff like that.
Early Neolithic could still be considered "Stone Age" but these guys in North America were moving past that and starting to rapidly develop.

No way could natives in North America be considered Paleo people at the time of the discovery of North America by the Euro's.

Trex
.

Thanx again Trex.

 

[Cannuck]

Given your position, and our ability to communicate with one another, I thought it would be an interesting exchange. I was also hoping to change your mind, lol...;-)

My position on what? The advancement level of aboriginals? Nothing you have said I disagree with. There really isn't much to discuss except for the meaning of the term "caveman". I think you are taking the comment too literally.

Neither am I, but I also believe that one should know their past. If you fail to acknowledge history, you're bound to repeat it. Not that that is directed at you in any way.

I don't think that applies here. The present day situation is nothing like it was 500 years ago. It won't be repeated. Besides, historically, natives were treated differently because of their race. You seem to want to repeat that while I want to change it.

 

[YukonJack]

And the answer is: Leaders of democracy, supported by Casino money and billions of dollars of Federal grants.

 

[Cliffy]

Bear,

You will notice that i said "most" of the blood shed happened after settler displacement. My understanding is that the covenant of the Brotherhood of the Shield (no killing of humans) was broken around a thousand years ago and that the arrival of the Europeans was foretold back then as a karmic result.

The warrior societies were only a small part of the organization of most societies and were originally intended as protection but I guess that once skills are learned, using them becomes important to men, so wars began as an outlet. Peace would be boring to someone who doesn't get to use his skills. Which is why most "advanced" civilized societies are in a constant state of war.

 

[CDNBear]

My position on what? The advancement level of aboriginals? Nothing you have said I disagree with. There really isn't much to discuss except for the meaning of the term "caveman". I think you are taking the comment too literally.

Perhaps I did, my apologies. Now that we've discussed it, I see that IO may have jumped the gun on my assessment of your comment.

I don't think that applies here. The present day situation is nothing like it was 500 years ago. It won't be repeated. Besides, historically, natives were treated differently because of their race. You seem to want to repeat that while I want to change it.

I disagree.

I like to think of myself as a forward thinker among my people. Though my feelings on the issue of Reservations is somewhat written stone. In that I think they should not be dissolved and that Native self governance is attainable and sustainable, if it weren't for the leaders we have at present.

I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. I want to take the best parts of the past and make them part of our future. A future as semi sovereign people, within the bounds and confines of the rest of Canadian society. Espousing the same values and the same goals as two peoples walking the same path. As our treaty with the Crown was written.

And don't forget, the Six Nations are not as heavily dependent on the MIA and Gov't funding as other Nations here. In fact, the Six nations is somewhat financially autonomous and could be fully, if not for our present leadership. IMHO.

And the answer is: Leaders of democracy, supported by Casino money and billions of dollars of Federal grants.

And we thank you for your contribution every year when we buy a new snowmobile...:roll:

I can get cheap smokes, even name brands, can I hook you up?

 

[CDNBear]

Bear,

You will notice that i said "most" of the blood shed happened after settler displacement. My understanding is that the (no killing of humans) was broken around a thousand years ago and that the arrival of the Europeans was foretold back then as a karmic result.

Sorry if I inferred that you meant in whole. That was not my intent Cliffy. I understood your assertion.

I'm not familiar with this Brotherhood, might I ask for some more input. You have peaked my curiousity.

The warrior societies were only a small part of the organization of most societies and were originally intended as protection but I guess that once skills are learned, using them becomes important to men, so wars began as an outlet. Peace would be boring to someone who doesn't get to use his skills. Which is why most "advanced" civilized societies are in a constant state of war.

I agree, and this would be an excuse I use constantly, to excuse or justify my bellicose nature, lo...;-)

 

[Cliffy]

Jack,

It would be refreshing if you would pull your head out of your a$$ once in a while and smelled the roses. Don't forget to go to church today.

 

[Cliffy]

Bear,

Its been a long time and my memory foggy, but I first ran across the idea in Seven Arrows (a work of fiction) but subsequently found many references to it in prophesy. The Brotherhood of the Shield were a group of Peace Keepers who traveled among all the people settling disputes and counseling. They were well respected and their presence considered an honour. It is said that they would just show up when needed. The last of the peace keepers was killed at Wounded Knee.

 

[ironsides]

They were not cavemen by any stretch of the imagination. In fact you could have compared them with European cultures. There only big mistake was that they were for the most part to trusting. As for their weapon's, the bow was far better than early firearms. They were much better equipped to travel over land and sometimes the sea. Medicine, probably better than us, had variety of societies just like us. Bottom line, in my opinion the native American was superior to the European. Their only fault was trusting us.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear,

Its been a long time and my memory foggy, but I first ran across the idea in Seven Arrows (a work of fiction) but subsequently found many references to it in prophesy. The Brotherhood of the Shield were a group of Peace Keepers who traveled among all the people settling disputes and counseling. They were well respected and their presence considered an honour. It is said that they would just show up when needed. The last of the peace keepers was killed at Wounded Knee.

Thanx Cliffy, a tragic story the Battle of Wounded Knee.

 

[CDNBear]

They were not cavemen by any stretch of the imagination. In fact you could have compared them with European cultures. There only big mistake was that they were for the most part to trusting. As for their weapon's, the bow was far better than early firearms. They were much better equipped to travel over land and sometimes the sea. Medicine, probably better than us, had variety of societies just like us. Bottom line, in my opinion the native American was superior to the European. Their only fault was trusting us.

For the most part I agree Ironsides...

But like my Grand father tought me, if we did repel the Europeans, when they arrived. Where would we be today. Some of the most amazing things have come from the union between our peoples.

We may have had many struggles and the strife was paramount. But there are many people alive today, including myself, that otherwise wouldn't be, had my ancestors slaughtered everyone disembarking the ships.

 

[YukonJack]

Cliffy, your snide post implies that the Native Peoples do not profit from the Casinoes they run, and they do not profit from the billions of dollars of Federal grants they get.

If you can come up with something more intelligent than that, and dispute and deny what I posted, you will be given the courtesy of being listened to.

 

[CDNBear]

Cliffy, your snide post implies that the Native Peoples do not profit from the Casones they run, and they do not profit from the Federal grants they get.

This is a generalised concept and in no way can be applied to the bulk of the Native community across Canada.

As for Federal grants...do you pay a mortgage? Have you ever entered into a contract?

Think in terms of that. Then you may start to understand the folly of your thoughts and accusations.

If you can come up with something more intelligent than that, and dispute and deny what I posted, you will be given the courtesy of being listened to.

The same can be said of your mangled perception of First nations there Skippy.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, your snide post implies that the Native Peoples do not profit from the Casinoes they run, and they do not profit from the billions of dollars of Federal grants they get.

If you can come up with something more intelligent than that, and dispute and deny what I posted, you will be given the courtesy of being listened to.

You focus on one small aspect of aboriginal life. Casinos are, in my opinion, a tax on whitey for five hundred years of abuse and use of their land. Many aboriginal people have contributed to Canada in the arts, politics and science. But it is your complete lack of understanding (and seeming lack of interest) in the realities of their situation or the history of abuse and subsequent health and emotional issues that make your comments make you look like a callous bigot.

But we all know how hard done by you were as an immigrant to this country and how your experience was so much worse than anybody else, which is why you are so intolerant of anybody else's complaints. You wear your persecution like a badge of honour ans scoff at anybody else who has been down trodden.

"Nobody knows the trouble I've seen,
Nobody knows my sorrow"

 

[Cannuck]

I like to think of myself as a forward thinker among my people.

When a WASP talks about "his people" folks tend to get a little upset. I generally have a problem with any special interest group and with the concept of corporatism in general. Therefore, I have a problem with the notion of "aboriginal" policies. We don't have white, black, Chinese or South American policies. We need to stop treating aboriginals as a group and treat each individual band as a nation (if they choose to consider themselves a nation).

I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. I want to take the best parts of the past and make them part of our future. A future as semi sovereign people, within the bounds and confines of the rest of Canadian society. Espousing the same values and the same goals as two peoples walking the same path. As our treaty with the Crown was written.

I believe everybody should be viewed the same under Canadian law. If a band wishes to be part of Canada, they must adhere to Canadian law....period. Discrimination based on race is illegal in Canada. It is my view that bands should have two options. They can run their affairs in the same way that any municipal government is run or they can opt out and become an independent nation. There should be no wishy-washy sovereignty association.

And don't forget, the Six Nations are not as heavily dependent on the MIA and Gov't funding as other Nations here. In fact, the Six nations is somewhat financially autonomous and could be fully, if not for our present leadership. IMHO.

Could they be financially autonomous if they had to set up there own social services and and other government programs while having sanctions applied by governments around the world?

 

[YukonJack]

Cliffy, you failed to respond to my challenge. Instead you came up with: "Casinos are, in my opinion, a tax on whitey for five hundred years of abuse and use of their land."

How would you feel if I matched your racist bigot "whitey" crack with equivalent "redskin" or some such? And you have the nerve to call others bigot!

No matter what the North American Natives gave "whitey", they gave the curse of tobacco. More "whitey" died of lung cancer than any Native done wrong by "whitey".

And I don't give a hoot what happened in five hundred years. Only people who have no confidence in the present cry about perceived wrongs in the past. My children who were born here are EVERY BIT AS NATIVE as any whining so-called native. And they will succeed/have succeeded, as I have, on our own merit, without billions of dollars of federal hand-outs.

 

[CDNBear]

When a WASP talks about "his people" folks tend to get a little upset.

You see, I don't, we all, each and everyone of us, has an heritage. And we should be proud of it.

I generally have a problem with any special interest group and with the concept of corporatism in general.

I would otherwise agree and do for the most part. What I adhere to, is the contemporary interpretations of the original contracts. The fluff and the monies wasted on such things as Residential Schools, is utter stupidity. Giving a victim money does not in any way correct or fix the wrong doing. It's merely punitive and does nothing more.

Therefore, I have a problem with the notion of "aboriginal" policies. We don't have white, black, Chinese or South American policies. We need to stop treating aboriginals as a group and treat each individual band as a nation (if they choose to consider themselves a nation).

I can go along with that. In fact that is my vision. Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Gov't. At this time we are unable to govern ourselves accordingly.

I believe everybody should be viewed the same under Canadian law. If a band wishes to be part of Canada, they must adhere to Canadian law....period.

Agreed!!!

Discrimination based on race is illegal in Canada. It is my view that bands should have two options. They can run their affairs in the same way that any municipal government is run or they can opt out and become an independent nation. There should be no wishy-washy sovereignty association.

But we were forced by contract to do just that. The Six nations, were brought in to the 'Canadian' fold under the pretense of being partners, as in sovereign association. It seems a little unfair to renege on that deal when it suits only one of the participants. Especially when it suits the only participant to have been the major beneficiary of the originating contract.

Could they be financially autonomous if they had to set up there own social services and and other government programs while having sanctions applied by governments around the world?

If the descrepincies in the accounting of our Trust held by the Crown were addressed and remedied, I believe the answer is yes. But then again, I am referring to the Six nations, centrally applied to the Grand River, and New York.

Our land deals and other financial dealings, left us with a Trust. Under the laws of the times, Native were unable to use financial intitutions and thus the Crown took said monies in trust. In the following years, our money was misdirected and in some case out right stolen to support or invest in projects not pertaining to nor in benefit of our community. These funds, had they not been removed, would have gained in interest. Furthermore, theses funds are at the simple heart of the recent Caledonia issue.

 

[CDNBear]

Cliffy, you failed to respond to my challenge. Instead you came up with: "Casinos are, in my opinion, a tax on whitey for five hundred years of abuse and use of their land."

How would you feel if I matched your racist bigot "whitey" crack with equivalent "redskin" or some such? And you have the nerve to call others bigot!

No matter what the North American Natives gave "whitey", they gave the curse of tobacco. More "whitey" died of lung cancer than any Native done wrong by "whitey".

And I don't give a hoot what happened in five hundred years. Only people who have no confidence in the present cry about perceived wrongs in the past. My children who were born here are EVERY BIT AS NATIVE as any whining so-called native. And they will succeed/have succeeded, as I have, on our own merit, without billions of dollars of federal hand-outs.

You know, I could find myself agreeing with some of your thoughts. If only the hate was not present.