First Nations, Stone aged or Leaders in Democracy?

[Cannuck]

The fact that race is an element is inconsiquential.

Sorry, you are wrong. Unless anybody and everybody is free to join group, then it does matter. I'm not arguing whether a contract should or shouldn't be upheld. 100 years ago the municipality I live in decided to incorporate. They signed contracts with the provincial government and took over control of their own affairs. I see no problem with any group doing this and I think these contracts should be honored. The difference is that the municipality I live in didn't and couldn't decide who was to be part of the group based on place of birth, race, genealogy or color of skin.

It isn't a matter of being allowed to join 'our' group.

If native bands are not open to anybody they should get nothing. The federal government should ignore any claims these groups have. If need be place sanctions on them and eliminate any funding. That's what we would do and have done with other racist states/nations. We should be consistent.

We could have been Caucasian and still ended up in the same mess. Race matters not in the issue as far as I'm concerned.

And if you were Caucasian and did not want blacks or Asians to be allowed entry into your club my opinion would be the same.

 

[CDNBear]

Sorry, you are wrong. Unless anybody and everybody is free to join group, then it does matter. I'm not arguing whether a contract should or shouldn't be upheld. 100 years ago the municipality I live in decided to incorporate. They signed contracts with the provincial government and took over control of their own affairs. I see no problem with any group doing this and I think these contracts should be honored. The difference is that the municipality I live in didn't and couldn't decide who was to be part of the group based on place of birth, race, genealogy or color of skin.

And based on your perception, I am wrong, i get that Cannuck, so we disagree. If you were in my shoes and lived in my shoes for any great period of time, your perception may be different. But I still respect where you're coming from and I can easily see how you can find offence in it. It just doesn't phase me at all though. The contract was for Native people to live on and use said land. Thus the contract stated clearly who was to reside there and use said lands.

If native bands are not open to anybody they should get nothing. The federal government should ignore any claims these groups have. If need be place sanctions on them and eliminate any funding. That's what we would do and have done with other racist states/nations. We should be consistent.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, and I thank gawd you aren't in politics, lol.

And if you were Caucasian and did not want blacks or Asians to be allowed entry into your club my opinion would be the same.

And if rain drops were jelly beans and gum drops, we'ld all be fat. I don't generally work off ' if's '.

Let me ask you this...If you buy a house and exclude everyone from entering it, except your family or friends, is that discrimination?

 

[Cannuck]

Let me ask you this...If you buy a house and exclude everyone from entering it, except your family or friends, is that discrimination?

Yes it is but my house is not a public place. If I open it to the public and then refuse entry to somebody who is Chinese....

The issue is really, is there a collective benefit to having organizations that are exclusive based on race. Of course there isn't. There may be a benefit to you personally but Bubba in 1930's Mississippi probably benefited by "whites only" rules and I don't think that was a proud moment in North American history.

I understand you feel that because the racism is enshrined in a contract, that it somehow makes it acceptable. I disagree, although I'm not arguing the validity of the contract. The reality is that standards change.

 

[CDNBear]

Yes it is but my house is not a public place.

Neither are Reserves. They have the right to allow or disallow anyone they wish from entering. I have been expelled from a few reserves myself. Thus making your point invalid.

The Reserve is a collective ownership, somewhat, it is still Crown land, but it is not considered public land. The right of the Crown over said lands, is more about control of the inhabitants and retention of mineral and resource rights, then it anything else.

The issue is really, is there a collective benefit to having organizations that are exclusive based on race. Of course there isn't. There may be a benefit to you personally but Bubba in 1930's Mississippi probably benefited by "whites only" rules and I don't think that was a proud moment in North American history.

And I can appreciate your perceptive and agree for the most part.

I understand you feel that because the racism is enshrined in a contract, that it somehow makes it acceptable. I disagree, although I'm not arguing the validity of the contract. The reality is that standards change.

I know that you take no issue with the contract itself. Think it's admirable of you, to make the distinction between the two and I appreciate the effort. Not everyone is mature and/or smart enough to do so. And this seriously has been a pleasurable discussion. The only other person I have been able to have such a pleasant disagreement with is grainfedprairieboy. Who seems to be MIA at the moment.

 

[YukonJack]

CDNBear, many European nations/tribes were conquered and vanquished without any treaty or any future rights, spreading into the next century and beyond, unearned by beneficiaries of those treaties. Tell me what current day Natives have done to deserve the tax-free benefits?

So, American Indians are extremely lucky to have dealt with a decent and compassionate conquering power. The conquered and vanquished peoples of Europe, Asia and Africa certainly NEVER had that priviledge. They are gone and extint forever.

And why did not the North American Indians/Natives go, pack up a boat and cconquer Europe?? Was it just because they were decent, lovely and loving folks or perhaps the lack of geographical knowledge of the world??

 

[CDNBear]

CDNBear, many European nations/tribes were conquered and vanquished without any treaty or any future rights, spreading into the next century and beyond, unearned by beneficiaries of those treaties. Tell me what current day Natives have done to deserve the tax-free benefits?

You'ld have to learn about what a living contract is and how they were written and held up to be perpetual.

Just because you don't like it, does not remove the spirit and the validity of the original contract.

So, American Indians are extremely lucky to have dealt with a decent and compassionate conquering power. The conquered and vanquished peoples of Europe, Asia and Africa certainly NEVER had that priviledge. They are gone and extint forever.

Is there a point there somewhere?

And why did not the North American Indians/Natives go, pack up a boat and cconquer Europe?? Was it just because they were decent, lovely and loving folks or perhaps the lack of geographical knowledge of the world??

Is there a point there?

Your first paragraph was ignorance, the two latter are borderline bigotry.

If you have serious questions and actually wish to learn something pertinent, I can suggest some sites to read, or you can ask me and I will answer your questions honestly and openly. I hinder nothing and hide no aspect of myself or my community. It does no one any justice to do so.

 

[YukonJack]

"Is there a point there somewhere?"

There certainly is! If the "Native" North Americans had had to deal with people other than the ones they DID deal with, they would not be here today.

And, once again, here we go with the desperate accusation of being a bigot just for asking a very simple question.

Why did not North American Natives set out to be discoverers and conquerers of other worlds? Or continents?

 

[Cannuck]

Neither are Reserves. They have the right to allow or disallow anyone they wish from entering. I have been expelled from a few reserves myself. Thus making your point invalid.

I know reserves aren't considered public. That doesn't make my point invalid. My tax dollars go into them so they should be public. I don't live or pay taxes in Calgary but through provincial and federal taxes I support the city. I should not be prevented from entering the city. It is a public place. Now, if you want to become a nation and have your own border with guards, then you can prevent anybody you like from entering your country and then I won't have to support you with my taxes.

 

[CDNBear]

There certainly is! If the "Native" North Americans had had to deal with people other than the ones they DID deal with, they would not be here today.

I disagree. Even in South America, though the Native population was decimated, it was not fully wiped out under the brutal Spanish and Portuguese invasion.

Here in North America, it was easier to come to an agreement and either trick the Native population out of what the Europeans wanted, then It was to take it by force. Which the Europeans had already learned would be disastrous for them.

Look YJ, go read up on Canadian History, and even then you won't be fully informed. I've lived with this history my whole life and still have a millennium of learning to do about my own people, my own history.

And, once again, here we go with the desperate accusation of being a bigot just for asking a very simple question.

And again, you read what you want. I said, and I say this again out of courtesy, your first paragraph was ignorance, not an insult, just that you haven't a clue about what you are talking about, and obviously you have no need of anyone enlightening your slim knowledge of Natives or the issues of said community, especially the hereditary and perpetual contracts honoured (subjectively speaking) by the Canadian Gov't.

The latter part of my statement addressed the borderline bigotry expressed in your commentary, and it is just my opinion that your comments are borderline bigotry. And only because you either wish to remain ignorant to fact or make commenst that seem to be willfully insulting or offensive, without any evidence in fact.

Why did not North American Natives set out to be discoverers and conquerers of other worlds? Or continents?

I found the perfect house for me and mine, so I don't go out on the weekends with a real estate agent either. Other then that, if you haven't a clue about the hight of Native technology or they came to be here, I suggest you learn or ask.

 

[CDNBear]

I know reserves aren't considered public. That doesn't make my point invalid. My tax dollars go into them so they should be public.

That's another if. They aren't public and therefore not subject to the same principal of access. And your tax dollars, via the contracts go to the people and/or their personal property, not that land.

The same thing applies to some rivers in Ontario. Though title holders along such rivers as the Pine or Nottawasaga, hole title to the river bottom, they do not hold title to the flowing water and therefore can not deny access to the water, but to navigate the river, you must at times touch bottom. It's a tricky little problem.

I don't live or pay taxes in Calgary but through provincial and federal taxes I support the city. I should not be prevented from entering the city. It is a public place. Now, if you want to become a nation and have your own border with guards, then you can prevent anybody you like from entering your country and then I won't have to support you with my taxes.

That's a whole other ball of wax that you and I have already touched on, and I doubt we'll agree on that any time soon. ;-)

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Stone age people, and we all were 10,000 years ago, had and have traditional leadership structures. That is certain groups and often families ran the show forever. This is not democracy, where the pot is always stirred and change occurs to ensure social and economic mobility through merit, elections, equality and education. Traditional societies desire as little change as possible because they want to keep their traditions.

Writers are dying to find evidence the Iroquois or some other group influenced the US constitution, but there is none to date because it's just not there. The West has created a break with tradition with ideas like progress and democracy. There's no going back.

We all lived in traditional societies not too long ago, and that was life for us. Now the world has moved on as traditional societies are having difficulty adapting to the modern world as they cannot pay for themselves. They need money from us non-treaty moderns to survive. I have no house, car etc unless I work.

 

[CDNBear]

Stone age people, and we all were 10,000 years ago, had and have traditional leadership structures. That is certain groups and often families ran the show forever. This is not democracy, where the pot is always stirred and change occurs to ensure social and economic mobility through merit, elections, equality and education. Traditional societies desire as little change as possible because they want to keep their traditions.

You should read the link in the OP...

Writers are dying to find evidence the Iroquois or some other group influenced the US constitution, but there is none to date because it's just not there. The West has created a break with tradition with ideas like progress and democracy. There's no going back.

Haudenosaunee Impact Recognized by Congress

Resolution Acknowledges Contributions to the Constitution

By


Story Created: Dec 9, 2008 at 2:46 PM EDT
Story Updated: Dec 22, 2008 at 12:22 PM EDT

Passed October 1988 to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations to the Development of the United States Constitution and to reaffirm the Continuing government-to-government relationship between Indian tribes and the United States established in the Constitution.

Concurrent Resolution

To acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations to the development of the United States Constitution and to reaffirm the continuing government-to-government relationship between Indian tribes and the United States established in the Constitution.

Whereas, the original framers of the constitution, including most notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known to have greatly admired the concepts, principles and government practices of the Six Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy; and...

No need to strain oneself to find something not lost.

1) The Congress, on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the signing of the United States Constitution, acknowledges the historical debt which this Republic of the United States of America owes to the Iroquois Confederacy and other Indian Nations for their demonstration of enlightened, democratic principles of government and their example of a free association of independent Indian Nations;

My favourite part...

We all lived in traditional societies not too long ago, and that was life for us. Now the world has moved on as traditional societies are having difficulty adapting to the modern world as they cannot pay for themselves. They need money from us non-treaty moderns to survive. I have no house, car etc unless I work.

Though I agree with your eluding to self accountability and responsibility, there are some issues with regards to fixing something not created by our acts. Not an excuse, but a hand up, would be nice, since it was the Europeans that knocked us down and kept us there against our will, all the while pretending to be our brothers...;-)

 

[Cliffy]

Yes, democracy gave us George Dubbya and Dickhead Chaney, the Iraq and Afghan wars, a world wide economic meltdown and so much more. Let us pray and give thanks to the gods of democracy.

 

[YukonJack]

Democracy also gave us Barrack Hussain Obama, who inflicted more financial damage on countless future generations than all the previous presidents, AND Dick Cheney, combined.

Not to mention Jimmyny Cricket Carter and Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Democracy also gave us Barrack Hussain Obama, who inflicted more financial damage on countless future generations than all the previous presidents, AND Dick Cheney, combined.

Not to mention Jimmyny Cricket Carter and Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

Seems to me that Obama inherited all the screw ups of the Bush regime. It's not like the economy was in sound condition when he came to office.

Dick Cheney has a great legacy.... haha.

 

[Cannuck]

Seems to me that Obama inherited all the screw ups of the Bush regime.

...and Bush inherited all the screw ups of the Clinton regime...and Clinton inherited all the screw ups of the Bush regime....and so it has been...

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

You should read the link in the OP...

No need to strain oneself to find something not lost.

My favourite part...
Though I agree with your eluding to self accountability and responsibility, there are some issues with regards to fixing something not created by our acts. Not an excuse, but a hand up, would be nice, since it was the Europeans that knocked us down and kept us there against our will, all the while pretending to be our brothers...;-)

What is the OP...?

This is a retrospective look at things. In the 17th and 18th centuries, the two societies were extremely segregated. Where are the 18th century meetings and conferences to justify this? This is history with too much story and too few facts. It is a harmless resolution, saying nothing but exuding warm feelings.

I have read books from the 17th and 18th centuries discussing how happy many English colonials were to live with aboriginals. Even English colonials kidnapped by Indians would not go back to their previous life when found or recaptured. These however were isolated events.

Just like Europeans calling Indians brothers. Usually it is only people paid by the gov't who say this. You have to be careful what the gov't says.

You write "eluding to self accountability ..." if you mean mean eluding it means to avoid, the word you want I think is alluding, to mean to refer. Many acts have been done I don't approve of and I still have to get used to them. I can't sit on the sidelines. I wish I could.

What kind of "hand up" do you have in mind?

 

[DurkaDurka]

...and Bush inherited all the screw ups of the Clinton regime...and Clinton inherited all the screw ups of the Bush regime....and so it has been...

Bush inherited a budget surplus from Clinton and he squandered that in fine style.

 

[Cannuck]

Bush inherited a budget surplus from Clinton...

...among other things

 

[DurkaDurka]

...among other things

true, Monica and Hillary were not part of the package. :smile: