First Nations, Stone aged or Leaders in Democracy?

[YukonJack]

Response to #40.

CDNBear, you pretend to have the ability to read my mind. You see hate where none exits. If there were, I am sure you would have detailed it fully.

But based on your posts (heck earlier you agreed with ALL my points, until had the irresistible compulsion to resort to name-calling) we may not be too far apart, if we give honesty a chance. So, step up to the plate!

 

[DurkaDurka]

No matter what the North American Natives gave "whitey", they gave the curse of tobacco. More "whitey" died of lung cancer than any Native done wrong by "whitey".

And Europeans brought the curse of alcohol to the natives...

 

[Cannuck]

You see, I don't, we all, each and everyone of us, has an heritage. And we should be proud of it.

It's kind of a silly thing to be proud of. You have no control over it. Besides, the issue is not whether one is proud of their heritage. The issue is whether one uses this pride to separate people as was done in the southern US or South Africa or as you seem to wish to do.

But we were forced by contract to do just that. The Six nations, were brought in to the 'Canadian' fold under the pretense of being partners, as in sovereign association.

So what? If a mistake was made in the past correct it. As I said before, I'm not really concerned about the past. Sovereignty association is the wrong approach.

If the descrepincies in the accounting of our Trust held by the Crown were addressed and remedied, I believe the answer is yes. But then again, I am referring to the Six nations, centrally applied to the Grand River, and New York.

Then I guess we disagree, not that it matters. South Africa's apartheid system crumbled once the world said enough was enough. I'm not sure of the Six Nations financial situation but I seriously doubt they could continue on where South Africa caved.

 

[YukonJack]

"And Europeans brought the curse of alcohol to the natives... "

Right along with the curse of snowmobiles, guns, books, schools, food, welfare, health care, cars, casinoes, etc...

Give me a break you phoney boloney, plastic banana, pretend "native", DurkaDurka!

 

[CDNBear]

Response to #40.

CDNBear, you pretend to have the ability to read my mind. You see hate where none exits. If there were, I am sure you would have detailed it fully.

It's in the tone and the absence of fact YJ. I don't hate you, I don't even dislike you. I dislike your distorted view of my people. It is based on fantasy and ignorance.

So ya, maybe hate was to strong a word, my apologies. It is ignorance that you poses.

But based on your posts (heck earlier you agreed with ALL my points, until had the irresistible compulsion to resort to name-calling) we may not be too far apart, if we give honesty a chance. So, step up to the plate!

I have agreed with a great many of your posts YJ. Some make perfect sense. Fiscally, I'm conservative, militarily, I'm conservative, authoritatively, I am conservative. That's where it ends. You on the other hand, are an all around conservative. That is not to say that that is a bad thing. It just means you and I are not going to agree on a great many topics. This being one of them.

By your posts on this subject, I can tell and can easily prove, if need be, that you know very little about Native issues, beyond what you have gleaned from the National Post, or right leaning mass media in general. That to isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless you make it your only source of information. You continued reference to casino's and grants seems to be about all you know of. As I just explained to Cannuck, my Nation, the Six Nations, is almost self suffecient. Not that you would know. You seem quite content in believing what you think is fact and all else is irrelavent.

And Europeans brought the curse of alcohol to the natives...

But accountability and personal responsiblity is universal Durka.

No one forced me to pick up the bottle, I forced my to put it down.

 

[CDNBear]

It's kind of a silly thing to be proud of. You have no control over it. Besides, the issue is not whether one is proud of their heritage. The issue is whether one uses this pride to separate people as was done in the southern US or South Africa or as you seem to wish to do.

I suppose you use your personal affectation of Canuck, because you feel no pride in being Canadian?

I don't wish to create apartheid states for the expressed purposes of exclusion. What is see is a society, not a race. Very much like Quebec' urge to be sovereign. Not so much race as it is self realisation and determination.

So what? If a mistake was made in the past correct it.

That is what I seek. That is all.

As I said before, I'm not really concerned about the past. Sovereignty association is the wrong approach.

And we'll have to agree to disagree. It is what the original contract stated. Not my interpretation of, but the interpretation of both the founding parties.

Then I guess we disagree, not that it matters. South Africa's apartheid system crumbled once the world said enough was enough. I'm not sure of the Six Nations financial situation but I seriously doubt they could continue on where South Africa caved.

Agree, we'll have to disagree. I don't think we can get past the difference between race and self determination. But I must say this was pleasant Cannuck, thanx for listening.

 

[YukonJack]

CDNBear, then go ahead and petition the Government of Canada to make your tribe or any of the other Native tribe to pay taxes as I, my children and those with unlucky skin colour do. Now, THAT would give your credibility a boost.

 

[DurkaDurka]

"And Europeans brought the curse of alcohol to the natives... "

Right along with the curse of snowmobiles, guns, books, schools, food, welfare, health care, cars, casinoes, etc...

Give me a break you phoney boloney, plastic banana, pretend "native", DurkaDurka!

What's baloney about it? Natives had never been exposed to booze prior to the European arrival. How exactly does differ from natives introducing tobacco to Europeans? Seems tit for tat to me.

 

[DurkaDurka]

But accountability and personal responsiblity is universal Durka.

No one forced me to pick up the bottle, I forced my to put it down.

I agree, Yukon stated that natives gave euro's the curse of tobacco, I just stated that euro's gave natives booze.

Yukon is convinced that the white man does no harm, ever.

 

[CDNBear]

CDNBear, then go ahead and petition the Government of Canada to make your tribe or any of the other Native tribe to pay taxes as I, my children and those with unlucky skin colour do. Now, THAT would give your credibility a boost.

I think you fail to realise that the tax exemption is a Treaty right. It is part of the original contract between 'our Nations' * (* subjectively speaking).

Though I disagree with Natives being able to work off the Rez and live upon it, and be tax exempt, or purchase goods and/or services and be tax exempt because they have a mailing address up a Reserve. The spirit of that part of the contract was that we not be subject to taxation by the Crown, signifying our sovereignty on our lands, and that is how it should be. So long as you live and work on the Rez, you pay no taxes. The minute you step off and live off the Rez, using municipal and regional services, you should pay taxes.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Right along with the curse of snowmobiles, guns, books, schools, food, welfare, health care, cars, casinoes, etc...

You forgot Smallpox. :smile:

 

[JLM]

Cliffy, you failed to respond to my challenge. Instead you came up with: "Casinos are, in my opinion, a tax on whitey for five hundred years of abuse and use of their land."

How would you feel if I matched your racist bigot "whitey" crack with equivalent "redskin" or some such? And you have the nerve to call others bigot!

No matter what the North American Natives gave "whitey", they gave the curse of tobacco. More "whitey" died of lung cancer than any Native done wrong by "whitey".

And I don't give a hoot what happened in five hundred years. Only people who have no confidence in the present cry about perceived wrongs in the past. My children who were born here are EVERY BIT AS NATIVE as any whining so-called native. And they will succeed/have succeeded, as I have, on our own merit, without billions of dollars of federal hand-outs.

You're hitting below the belt there, Y.J. and besides you don't know what you are talking about. My wife and kids all have native blood, but to see them on the street you might not recognize that. More to the point they are just as industrious and intelligent as you are. And they have the added advantage of knowing when to keep their mouths shut.

 

[Cannuck]

I suppose you use your personal affectation of Canuck, because you feel no pride in being Canadian?

Actually, the moniker "Cannuck" does not have anything to do with pride of country. I believe nationalism, like racism are generally destructive forces if not managed. I've often felt uncomfortable when told to stand, remove my hat and sing Oh Canada. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with being proud of collective achievements. No single person is responsible for winning the Stanley Cup but every team mate can take pride in the accomplishment and know that they were a part of a team effort. Canadians have achieved some things that I, as a Canadian can be proud of but the level of pride is not in the same arena as personal accomplishments.

I don't wish to create apartheid states for the expressed purposes of exclusion. What is see is a society, not a race. Very much like Quebec' urge to be sovereign. Not so much race as it is self realisation and determination.

I can move to Kweebaeck and vote. I can buy land in Kweeback. I can do practically anything in Kweebeck that I can do in Alberta. Laws that forbid me from doing things(hang up an english sign) or otherwise treat me differently should be struck down. Your motives for creating an apartheid state are not all that important if you create an aparteid state. South Africa created the apartheid state to stabilize the country. There was tribal warfare and the communist ANC was a threat. I don't really want to get into a SA discussion here. The point is that doing something wrong with good intentions still makes it wrong. Unless you can show me how treating people differently based on race is somehow beneficial, it doesn't really matter why you are doing it.

I don't think we can get past the difference between race and self determination.

We? I can. Self determination should allowed for any person or group. Allowing access into the group based on race is racism and should be fought.

 

[Cliffy]

What is Canada? It is a confederation of sovereign provinces. The only piece of paper that is legal that forms our constitution is the BNA of 1867. The constitution that Trudeau put forth has never been ratified by Quebec and was never brought forward for comment or approval of the citizens of Canada, so it is not legal. The BNA gave sovereignty to the provinces but did not give sovereignty to the aboriginal peoples. Because every treaty has been broken, every aboriginal nation has a right to renegotiate their contract with Canada. Sovereignty association is a fact of life. It is written in our constitution (the BNA) but most people do not understand that Canada is a confederation of sovereign nations.

The Quebec issue is complertely misunderstood and has been used as a smoke screen to hide the facts. PM Harper was right in saying Quebec is a sovereign Nation within the association called Canada (as much as I hate to admit that he ever spoke a truth). By coining the phrase "First nations" the door was open to sovereignty of the aboriginal peoples. Canadians should start comming to terms with the reality not the fantasy of what Canada is.

 

[YukonJack]

DurkaDurka opined, carelessly and typically, unthinkingly:

"Yukon is convinced that the white man does no harm, ever."

The fact that I made a complete fool and clown out of him on another thread, obviously clouds his judgement.

 

[DurkaDurka]

DurkaDurka opined, carelessly and typically, unthinkingly:

"Yukon is convinced that the white man does no harm, ever."

The fact that I made a complete fool and clown out of him on another thread, obviously clouds his judgement.

haha, you are delusional as well as crazy.

 

[CDNBear]

Actually, the moniker "Cannuck" does not have anything to do with pride of country. I believe nationalism, like racism are generally destructive forces if not managed. I've often felt uncomfortable when told to stand, remove my hat and sing Oh Canada. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with being proud of collective achievements. No single person is responsible for winning the Stanley Cup but every team mate can take pride in the accomplishment and know that they were a part of a team effort. Canadians have achieved some things that I, as a Canadian can be proud of but the level of pride is not in the same arena as personal accomplishments.

My apologies for my assumption and I agree with the sentiment of the rest of that statement. Very enlightening, thanx.

I can move to Kweebaeck and vote. I can buy land in Kweeback. I can do practically anything in Kweebeck that I can do in Alberta. Laws that forbid me from doing things(hang up an english sign) or otherwise treat me differently should be struck down. Your motives for creating an apartheid state are not all that important if you create an aparteid state. South Africa created the apartheid state to stabilize the country. There was tribal warfare and the communist ANC was a threat. I don't really want to get into a SA discussion here. The point is that doing something wrong with good intentions still makes it wrong. Unless you can show me how treating people differently based on race is somehow beneficial, it doesn't really matter why you are doing it.

Though there are different races involved, this is not about race, at least not from my perspective. And though I see an issue in the creation of Nation States, with regards to race. This is about the contracts that were originally set out and nothing more. The fact that race is an element is inconsiquential.

We? I can. Self determination should allowed for any person or group. Allowing access into the group based on race is racism and should be fought.

Yes we, your perception and mine differ far to greatly, for us to get past them.

But I hear you and again, we'll have to agree to disagree. It isn't a matter of being allowed to join 'our' group. You are either a Native or not. You either have an hereditary contractual right to live on the lands sequestered for Natives or you don't. This was based on European expansionism. We could have been Caucasian and still ended up in the same mess. Race matters not in the issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

[YukonJack]

Cliffy said, in response to my post:

"You're hitting below the belt there, Y.J. and besides you don't know what you are talking about. My wife and kids all have native blood, but to see them on the street you might not recognize that. More to the point they are just as industrious and intelligent as you are. And they have the added advantage of knowing when to keep their mouths shut."

Cliffy, I want you to point out where and when did I hit below the belt. Following that, please explain why disagreeing with you is equal to not knowing what one is talking about.

Congratulations for your marrying to a Native. So did I, although my wife has the temerity of having a lighter skin colour than your wife and the horrible audacity of being of Scottish/Irish descendency. Your bragging about marrying one with "Native" blood is about as close as you can come to being racist without self-declaring so.

I never questioned the creativity, industriousness and/or cleverness of anyone. I just look at results, government subsidies and I ask Why? Then I can't help but ask: Why NOT?

If I had opened my mouth as much as your heroes, maybe I - or more importantly, my NATIVE children - had had tha the same amount of undeserved, taxpayer-funded federal subsidy as your heroes and their children.

So here you are. Join forces with DurkaDurka and follow the last resort of the desperate with no logical argument left: Declare me a racist and feel good about it!!

 

[DurkaDurka]

So here you are. Join forces with DurkaDurka and follow the last resort of the desperate with no logical argument left: Declare me a racist and feel good about it!!

The shoe fits pretty snug, doesn't it?

 

[CDNBear]

Cliffy said, in response to my post:

"You're hitting below the belt there, Y.J. and besides you don't know what you are talking about. My wife and kids all have native blood, but to see them on the street you might not recognize that. More to the point they are just as industrious and intelligent as you are. And they have the added advantage of knowing when to keep their mouths shut."

Cliffy, I want you to point out where and when did I hit below the belt. Following that, please explain why disagreeing with you is equal to not knowing what one is talking about.

Congratulations for your marrying to a Native. So did I, although my wife has the temerity of having a lighter skin colour than your wife and the horrible audacity of being of Scottish/Irish descendency. Your bragging about marrying one with "Native" blood is about as close as you can come to being racist without self-declaring so.

I never questioned the creativity, industriousness and/or cleverness of anyone. I just look at results, government subsidies and I ask Why? Then I can't help but ask: Why NOT?

If I had opened my mouth as much as your heroes, maybe I - or more importantly, my NATIVE children - had had tha the same amount of undeserved, taxpayer-funded federal subsidy as your heroes and their children.

So here you are. Join forces with DurkaDurka and follow the last resort of the desperate with no logical argument left: Declare me a racist and feel good about it!!

I don't think you a racist, as much as I don't think Scott's a racist. I think you're both ignorant to certain facts.

You say undeserved funding. Without any qualification, how am I to know what funding your assertion pertains to? So if I view that comment as an all encompassing ideology, you would appear to be ignorant. If I explain to you the facts of the matter and you don't care, or ignore them, then you become a bigot.

I would say there are a great many feel good Federally funded First nations projects. But then if you are referring to the transfer of funds to the Provinces for the up keep and welfare of First nations peoples, under mandate of Treaty, then you are in error. These funds are based on contractual obligation.

I know this comment to be immature and simplistic at best but it makes my point rather clear...

If you don't wish to live up to your end of the contract, then fee free to end it and leave. Return what you are no longer willing to pay for. We will accept what you leave behind as reparations for the disease, death, destruction and pollution you brought with you.