financial collapse

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Why is different than the 60's? A dead economy is a dead economy. If people can't spend there is no economy. It's very simple.

I entered the work force during the time J.F.K was at the helm in the U.S. and the economy (in Canada anyway) was far from dead, it was actually quite vibrant. :smile:
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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United States

If America's good days are over, so are China's

“Be careful with what you wish,” goes an old saying. “Because when it comes true, it may not be good for you.”
Everyone who follows closely US-Chinese economic relations cannot help but be puzzled by China’s bold statement, after the S&P downgrade of US debt, that “America’s good day’s over.“
While China, as America’s largest foreign investor in US Treasuries, has every reason to be concerned about the ability of the US to fulfill its credit obligations to its lenders, such statements are unfair and unjust, and are against China’s long-term interests.
China’s statement is unfair and unjust for a number of reasons: First, China’s credit to the US isn’t a direct loan negotiated under strict financial conditions, as is the case with IMF loans to heavily indebted countries, but an investment, the purchase of US government bonds in the open market. Second, it is assumed that China applied due diligence before it pursued such an investment, and determined that such investment was to the best of its own interests. If now China thinks otherwise, it can just unload its holdings, as any prudent investor would do in a market system. Third, in an era of low interest rate environment for dollar denominated assets, investing in US Treasuries has been a good choice to park dollars. Japanese, Korean, European, and American investors did that, and so did China—in fact those investors have fared really well in the last year. Forth, the dollars that China used to purchase US Treasuries aren’t hard saved money of the Chinese people, but money earned from selling Chinese goods to American consumers, which brings us to the second part of our argument.

http://news.yahoo.com/americas-good-days-over-chinas-155036960.html;_ylt=Ahsqxl_lZNifmSKB1o_5NXdtzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTQwbGhiYjUwBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDIwMHBvb2xyZXN0BHBrZwNiYzliZjQ0YS04ZjhhLTNjZmMtYWUxMC01MWYxNGIyZWYwODEEcG9zAzcEc2VjA25ld3NfZm9yX3lvdQR2ZXIDNWE1OGIyMjAtYzEwZS0xMWUwLWJkZmUtOTdmN2U2ZjdhNDgz;_ylg=X3oDMTJsdHEwMGQxBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZGE4MDc0NzYtZmVjNi0zNDM0LThlNWQtOWM5YmNlMzAyOTk4BHBzdGNhdAN1cwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I entered the work force during the time J.F.K was at the helm in the U.S. and the economy (in Canada anyway) was far from dead, it was actually quite vibrant. :smile:


Did you bother to look into the differences in the economy prior and post tax cuts?
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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After US Downgrade, This Could Get Ugly

After US Downgrade, This Could Get Ugly - Yahoo! News


***********

wouldn't get bent out of shape by China's comments. It might just be feeling a bit more confident with a larger sense of power and influence......Plus....... the US has been far from tactful on so many occassions against who ever they have a criticism of for the day. Their thug language has been hurtful, arrogant , smug , childish, petulant ....etc all in turn. Mostly threatening as it lorded it over others.

those are the FACTS..... and playing nice was never the US strong suit.........so if some are getting their own in.now......all one can say is payback can be a real bitch. And the payback is just starting. Many of us had "predictied" that the economy and how it was mishandled by the americans for so long.....living on tomorrows dream and tomorrows funds today. ... but did not think it would spiral out this quickly.

not to be a pessimist.......but we probably ain't seen nuthin yet as the US tries to re-establish its equilibrium. Let's not forget , it has always had a take no prisoners attitude.......so there is no telling where this will go now.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Obama absent as China scolds U.S. for debt addiction

U.S. President Barack Obama remained largely silent as China, the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, demanded Saturday that America confront its "addiction to debts" in the wake of Standard & Poor's decision to downgrade the U.S. credit rating.

The president, spending the weekend at Camp David, left it to press secretary Jay Carney to say it's clear Washington "must do better" in tackling soaring deficits and other economic woes.


Official response

China currently owns $1.2 trillion of U.S. Treasury debt, the largest stake of any central bank. The commentary carried by the state-run Xinhua News Agency was Beijing's first official response to the S&P decision.

"The U.S. government has to come to terms with the painful fact that the good old days when it could just borrow its way out of messes of its own making are finally gone," Xinhua said. It said the rating cut would be followed by more "devastating credit rating cuts" and global financial turbulence if the U.S. fails to learn to "live within its means."

"China, the largest creditor of the world's sole superpower, has every right now to demand the United States to address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China's dollar assets," it said.

With Obama absent in replying to the S&P downgrade, it was up to aides to defend his administration, noting that two other ratings agencies — Moody's and Fitch — are for now keeping the triple-A rating for U.S. debt.


Accept supervision

Xinhua said the U.S. must slash its "gigantic military expenditure and bloated social welfare costs" and accept international supervision over U.S. dollar issues.

Last month, China's top general, Chen Bingde, also linked America's financial woes to its military budget and asked whether paring back on defence spending wouldn't be the best thing for U.S. taxpayers.

Such comments reflect Beijing's desire that Washington reduce its military presence in Asia. The U.S., rattled by China's military buildup, also routinely chides Beijing for its fast-growing defence spending. Xinhua also suggested a new global reserve currency might be necessary to replace the dollar, a position China has frequently advocated.

"Mounting debts and ridiculous political wrestling in Washington have damaged America's image abroad," Xinhua said. "To cure its addiction to debts, the United States has to re-establish the common sense principle that one should live within its means."

Obama absent as China scolds U.S. for debt addiction - Politics - CBC News
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Geithner: No Risk U.S. Will Lose AAA Credit Rating - Fox Business Video - FoxBusiness.com

Video – Tim Geithner Speaks Too Soon – April 25, 2011

Who wudda thunk Geitner was wrong?

I guess it must be the Tea Party's fault?

"This is essentially a Tea Party downgrade," David Axelrod, President Barack Obama's political strategist and former White House aide, said yesterday on the CBS program "Face the Nation."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...-2A93CHQG4J9VC4RLMN2HI774GD.DTL#ixzz1UPKO4MZl
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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Obama absent as China scolds U.S. for debt addiction

U.S. President Barack Obama remained largely silent as China, the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, demanded Saturday that America confront its "addiction to debts" in the wake of Standard & Poor's decision to downgrade the U.S. credit rating.

The president, spending the weekend at Camp David, left it to press secretary Jay Carney to say it's clear Washington "must do better" in tackling soaring deficits and other economic woes.


Official response

China currently owns $1.2 trillion of U.S. Treasury debt, the largest stake of any central bank. The commentary carried by the state-run Xinhua News Agency was Beijing's first official response to the S&P decision.

"The U.S. government has to come to terms with the painful fact that the good old days when it could just borrow its way out of messes of its own making are finally gone," Xinhua said. It said the rating cut would be followed by more "devastating credit rating cuts" and global financial turbulence if the U.S. fails to learn to "live within its means."

"China, the largest creditor of the world's sole superpower, has every right now to demand the United States to address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China's dollar assets," it said.

With Obama absent in replying to the S&P downgrade, it was up to aides to defend his administration, noting that two other ratings agencies — Moody's and Fitch — are for now keeping the triple-A rating for U.S. debt.


Accept supervision

Xinhua said the U.S. must slash its "gigantic military expenditure and bloated social welfare costs" and accept international supervision over U.S. dollar issues.

Last month, China's top general, Chen Bingde, also linked America's financial woes to its military budget and asked whether paring back on defence spending wouldn't be the best thing for U.S. taxpayers.

Such comments reflect Beijing's desire that Washington reduce its military presence in Asia. The U.S., rattled by China's military buildup, also routinely chides Beijing for its fast-growing defence spending. Xinhua also suggested a new global reserve currency might be necessary to replace the dollar, a position China has frequently advocated.

"Mounting debts and ridiculous political wrestling in Washington have damaged America's image abroad," Xinhua said. "To cure its addiction to debts, the United States has to re-establish the common sense principle that one should live within its means."

Obama absent as China scolds U.S. for debt addiction - Politics - CBC News


..........THAT has gotta sting. Let's see if the US can actually handle this with a degree of dignity ......or will ilt resort to the usual beligerance and defensiveness.(or excuses). There is plenty of TRUTH in those comments. No time for any false pride or arrogance anymore. This is where the truth really hurts......
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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I guess China is unimpressed and eager to assert some sort of dominance.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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China has it's aims too. When it comes to military presence in Asia they are refering to one thing. China wants the US out of the Sea of Japan. They have a for a long long time and will say what they needs to say to kindly encourage them to hurry along to elsewhere. They are going to take out North Korea which is fine but they won't stop there, they'll go for disputed islands with Japan and retake Taiwan too.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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..........THAT has gotta sting. Let's see if the US can actually handle this with a degree of dignity ......or will ilt resort to the usual beligerance and defensiveness.(or excuses). There is plenty of TRUTH in those comments. No time for any false pride or arrogance anymore. This is where the truth really hurts......

It definitely has to suck for people in the US to realize that they've lost their edge. They're bankrupt, in debt, borrowing power is nil, China is making a move and the days of half the population enjoying 2 years on pogey, while the old people golf, are numbered.

There's something to be said for "born lucky", like Canadian.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Canada will do just fine through this. We have an abundance of raw materials, energy, food and water that the rest of the planet needs to simply survive.

Keeping grubby mitts off of them will be the hard part. How do you pick and choose who will be your customers without somebody wanting more than they need or deserve?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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I'd like to see it work as much as anyone but I hae me doots!



It would be interesting to see solid figures on who killed how many from 2003 to 2008..............probably the Sunnis killing the ****ties! :lol:

Ooops I guess that should have been Shiites! :smile:
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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It definitely has to suck for people in the US to realize that they've lost their edge. They're bankrupt, in debt, borrowing power is nil, China is making a move and the days of half the population enjoying 2 years on pogey, while the old people golf, are numbered.

There's something to be said for "born lucky", like Canadian.


indeed. Kind of scary to think how things will move from now on. What had become quite "predictable".........has had the rug pulled out of it. Uncertain times and quite concerning.

Sadly this implosion has been taking place for some time......but the powers that be Sof the border , seemed to lose it entirely and fell into ;a bickering foolishmess , power struggle.........while america was burning in front of them.

They have not heeded the signs around them.....the feedback from supporting nations, and just did as they pleased with reckless abandon. (the wars being their most stupid decisions ) It is probably just as well that they lived on the basis of the american "dream".... as they have such a hard time with reality.... but that is gonna have to change now. IF not handled ver;y smartly and carefully ......this moment in time can be cataclysmic. ( dramatics not intended)

Canada will do just fine through this. We have an abundance of raw materials, energy, food and water that the rest of the planet needs to simply survive.

Keeping grubby mitts off of them will be the hard part. How do you pick and choose who will be your customers without somebody wanting more than they need or deserve?

good point. It will take smart and careful leadership to handle the coming situations. And we cannot afford to go crazy or too cocky....as we are seeing in live theater , what happens when a nation of people get too big for their britches......and start to;believe they are invincible.

China has it's aims too. When it comes to military presence in Asia they are refering to one thing. China wants the US out of the Sea of Japan. They have a for a long long time and will say what they needs to say to kindly encourage them to hurry along to elsewhere. They are going to take out North Korea which is fine but they won't stop there, they'll go for disputed islands with Japan and retake Taiwan too.

Sure China has it's own agenda. Why wouldn't it?? The big difference is that it knows how to plan generations ahead and are NOT into that instant gratification mentality.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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good point. It will take smart and careful leadership to handle the coming situations. And we cannot afford to go crazy or too cocky....as we are seeing in live theater , what happens when a nation of people get too big for their britches......and start to;believe they are invincible.
As long as we don't do something stupid like make them buy our bonds so they have CDN cash to buy our goods. It should be voluntary to buy our bonds to buy our goods. It didn't work out so good for another near by democracy that has that policy.
 

Ocean Breeze

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As long as we don't do something stupid like make them buy our bonds so they have CDN cash to buy our goods. It should be voluntary to buy our bonds to buy our goods. It didn't work out so good for another near by democracy that has that policy.

agree.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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JLM I can't remeber which thread this goes in but I have a link for you: The Reagan Tax Cuts: Lessons for Tax Reform

Actually Petros, my philosophy about taxes is pretty close to yours, BUT the U.S. has hit a wall and conventional solutions don't seem to be working. I know you and I spend our money more sensibly than the gov't does but for their own good the U.S. taxpayer has to get the debt under control as the interest is bleeding them to death. Actually I think every American of means should just mail the Gov't $1000 to pay down the debt, it would be the best investment for the future they could make. Too bad Reagan was 30 years before his time- the U.S. could really use him now.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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We hear lots of goofy crap about how they are our best customer and biggest trade partner. This has it's misconceptions amongst canadians. The majority of trade is in parts that go back and forth to eventually form a whole item for sale. Auto parts is a great example of how the misconception is perpetuated.

Actually Petros, my philosophy about taxes is pretty close to yours, BUT the U.S. has hit a wall and conventional solutions don't seem to be working. I know you and I spend our money more sensibly than the gov't does but for their own good the U.S. taxpayer has to get the debt under control as the interest is bleeding them to death. Actually I think every American of means should just mail the Gov't $1000 to pay down the debt, it would be the best investment for the future they could make. Too bad Reagan was 30 years before his time- the U.S. could really use him now.
If taxes go up so will interest rates on all that debt and deficit. Even if everyone did forfeit $1000 that still doesn't even come close to the 14 TRILLION of debt they have to deal with. paying it off in one shot would bankrupt every last person in America and all it's little possesions around the globe.

Puerto Rico is where they seem to be testing various solutions and it's not going over too well down there.

There is no way out other than a complete crash and defaulting along the lines of Iceland or go to war with those they owe which would probably be the outcome of defaulting. Catch 22