Creation vs Evolution

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Creation vs Evolution
Why does it have to be either/or. The Universe is made up of certain stuff and everything in it, including humans are made of the same stuff. The Universe is so absolutely huge, infinite actually, and there is no possibility for our finite minds to imagine or comprehend it. It just is. Is it intelligent, does it have consciousness? Well, to find that answer we just have to look at what we do know, what we can see and understand. There is a certain symmetry and grace to all the chaos we witness.
If we are made of star dust and everything on this planet is made of star dust (the same stuff the Universe is made of) and that the Universe itself is consciously aware of itself, and we are consciously aware of ourselves, then, to me, it stands to reason that somehow there is a connection between all parts of the whole. In other words, we are connected to all there is. The Universe is made of creative energy and is creative consciousness. We are also creative consciousness.
As someone put it, we are the Universe having a human experience. It is my contention that this creative consciousness, our finite awareness is just a microcosm of the infinite awareness of the Universe. That seems to be where some get confused: the Universe is what some refer to as god. It does not judge or punish us for thinking or believing anything. It is indifferent. To think that it cares about you personally would be a colossal act of narcissistic egotism.
Something as infinite as the Universe and its infinite consciousness would be impossible to comprehend and things would evolve within the parameters of infinity. Creation/evolution are beyond our capacity to even imagine so it is a futile debate that distracts us from what is really important - living life to its fullest, being present and not distracted by trivialities.
Aboriginal peoples world wide sensed a connection to all life on this planet because they were not distracted by sillyphosical mental masturbation over topics that were beyond comprehension. They had time to develop a working relationship with life around them, to be part of the cycles of life. We, in the west, have separated ourselves from those cycles, put ourselves above them with our egotistical self importance, thinking that the Earth was created for our needs and exploitation.
It wasn't. We are part of one gigantic living being we call the biosphere. We are not separate but just a strand in the web of life. Until we understand that whatever happens to the web happens to us, we will keep going down this road, arguing over nonsense while our life support system degenerates around us.
Does it really matter if life was created or evolved? Not really. Are we putting all life on this planet in jeopardy with our egotistical beliefs in our own self importance? Yes. Time to awaken from the drunken stupor of religion and smell the roses before we all go the route of the Dodo. - Cliffy
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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That seems to be where some get confused: the Universe is what some refer to as god. It does not judge or punish us for thinking or believing anything. It is indifferent. To think that it cares about you personally would be a colossal act of narcissistic egotism.
I can't agree with this above bit Cliffy, our lives have purpose the universe does not waste energy building organisms out of matter for no reason the universe has reason, the most reason, a design in progress. Of course that reason or purpose is quite a bit out of the range of my vision and maybe yours but I think to believe it to be a mindless soup of electromagnetism and dust is out of the question ,i think. If it were indifferent why in hell would it have permitted mankind in the first place.
 

Danbones

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Sep 23, 2015
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White people and some others have from one to five percent ( out of twenty possible percents) neanderthal DNA, so the creation thing is done right there...
;)
Royalty is the most descended "from heaven" ( has the most apeman genes of all...)
go figure

If it were indifferent why IN HELL would it have permitted mankind in the first place.

There has to be some witnesses to appreciate the place!
:)
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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who says God doesn't create the world through evolution and that the biblical narrative is highly symbolic in its language?
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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If you reduce Cliffy's principle to its fundamental logic it is simply the Law of the Jungle. It's all about Evolution and not about Creation. It is the condensation of all matter and knowledge into one primal singularity.

If you put all that into giant a calibrating machine you'd likely come up with same answer as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy's 'Deep Thought' over a period of 7.5 million years. The Answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. 42.

Give up, Cliffy. The Universe in laughing behind your back.
 
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Cliffy

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I can't agree with this above bit Cliffy, our lives have purpose the universe does not waste energy building organisms out of matter for no reason the universe has reason, the most reason, a design in progress. Of course that reason or purpose is quite a bit out of the range of my vision and maybe yours but I think to believe it to be a mindless soup of electromagnetism and dust is out of the question ,i think. If it were indifferent why in hell would it have permitted mankind in the first place.

I never said it was mindless soup. The Universe is a conscious entity and everything has a purpose. Every living thing in the Universe has a soul and consciousness. That we don't understand it is due to our finite intelligence. There is nothing that is not part of, connected to and interdependent with everything else. You look at an atomic structure and it is a mirror of a solar system - as above, so below. If you could see infinity with a telescope and I could see infinity through a microscope, we just might find ourselves looking at each other.

Fred Alan Wolf: Shamanic Physics (excerpt) -- A Thinking Allowed DVD w/ Jeffrey Mishlove



[youtube]BCWBqARrsgE[/youtube]
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
White people and some others have from one to five percent ( out of twenty possible percents) neanderthal DNA, so the creation thing is done right there...
;)
Royalty is the most descended "from heaven" ( has the most apeman genes of all...)
go figure



There has to be some witnesses to appreciate the place!
:)

That appreciation is a work in progress for sure but I think there are dozens of species way out in front of us in the appreciation game.
 

Curious Cdn

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Feb 22, 2015
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Creation and evolution are not comparable. They do not describe the same phenomena. Evolutionary processes are how living matter mutates and adapts to changing environments. There is, as yet, no known process whereby the totally inorganic "mutates" into the organic. Matter is either alive or it is not and there are no half-way measures observable. The divide between the living and the non-living is steep and profound. Everything in our environment is either one or the other and there are no "maybes". Darwin does not explain where life comes from, only that it constantly changes form.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
I never said it was mindless soup. The Universe is a conscious entity and everything has a purpose. Every living thing in the Universe has a soul and consciousness. That we don't understand it is due to our finite intelligence. There is nothing that is not part of, connected to and interdependent with everything else. You look at an atomic structure and it is a mirror of a solar system - as above, so below. If you could see infinity with a telescope and I could see infinity through a microscope, we just might find ourselves looking at each other.

Fred Alan Wolf: Shamanic Physics (excerpt) -- A Thinking Allowed DVD w/ Jeffrey Mishlove


[youtube]BCWBqARrsgE[/youtube]

You wrote=It is indifferent. That was my single sticking point with you composition.
A mindless soup would also be indifferent.
I accept your appaulogy.
 

Cliffy

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Creation and evolution are not comparable. They do not describe the same phenomena. Evolutionary processes are how living matter mutates and adapts to changing environments. There is, as yet, no known process whereby the totally inorganic "mutates" into the organic. Matter is either alive or it is not and there are no half-way measures observable. The divide between the living and the non-living is steep and profound. Everything in our environment is either one or the other and there are no "maybes". Darwin does not explain where life comes from, only that it constantly changes form.
Most creationists take the biblical version as literal but it was never meant to be taken literally. Taken as metaphor, there really is no black and white division. All matter in the Universe is energy. If you look at the atomic structure of a rock, there are neutrons and protons whizzing around a nucleus. The consciousness that keeps the neutrons and protons from flying off into space is the same that keeps planets from flying out of our solar system. There is order to everything in the Universe even though it may seem chaotic to our little pea brains.The same energy permeates everything, including what seems to us as inorganic or non-living substances.

You wrote=It is indifferent. That was my single sticking point with you composition.
A mindless soup would also be indifferent.
I accept your appaulogy.
It is indifferent to what you believe and think about it. It is not going to fry your ass in hell for not believing that there is a gawd out there that created all this so you could evolve into some parasite consuming this planet or whether you call it god, allah or the flying spaghetti monster.
 

Cliffy

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Do either of you have stats to back up your claim? And is it even that important whether most understand it symbolically or give it spiritual significance or insist on interpreting it literally?
The only reason it matters is that humans who take these things literally have been slaughtering each other for thousands of years. If seen as metaphor, there is no difference between science and ancient teachings. Everybody is right to themselves. If people could get that through their thick skulls, there would be no need for the slaughter.

Thank you for your well thought out and intellectually stimulating contribution.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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I realize that quantum physics is a little beyond the pay grade of an internet troll.

Sorry for upsetting you. You're not the first that's got pissy when your religious views are questioned. You certainly won't be the last
 

Hoid

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Oct 15, 2017
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It doesn't have to be either / or.

Many scientists believe (ed) in God and/or Creation, including paradoxically Darwin - who only went into science because he was not smart enough to join the clergy.