Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or survival

thomaska

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May 24, 2006
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
Thomaska

It's only Chomsky's "brain" which has been dead for some time.... :wink:

Ah yeas, thanks for the reminder. Wanted to post my agreement. I can't believe I actually typed Chomsky's name without including the puking emoticon
 

elevennevele

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
Machjo

Chavez has pretty much destroyed what used to be a thriving middle class economy in Venezuela and the poverty is on the increase since he began his megalomania.


If you have ever spent any significant time in a third world country living with the base of the society (as I’ve experienced staying with various families throughout a country, eg. Philippines) you will find that the concept of a middle class in a third world country is practically insignificant to begin with. Countries in the third world are mostly a very large poverty class, and a very small elite class. Also, what we even think of a middle class by our standards is a standard of considerable wealth to the poor of a third world nation.

To try attempt to research Chavez and his impact on Venezuela is to swim in reports of negativity coming out of North American sources and opposition groups. I can not imagine anything positive that North American sources would spin on anything coming from a socialistic model in Latin America.

Neither do I feel a socialist environment provides the same framework by which we can assess the standards in living relative to our societal structure. For instance, the poor might now be getting free and readily accessible healthcare when they didn’t before, or literacy programs where there were none before, but the living standard itself for some of these people may not have drastically changed as of yet, and thus such people might fall off the radar of noticeable improvement just the same.

People in the poverty class of a third world country being run by an elite group typically has no chance of bettering their livelihoods. These people were living in shanty towns prior to Chavez and that type of change does not happen readily. You first have to improve the infrastructure and resources for such people. Then you have to educate them while at the same time improving on the existing economy to then accommodate a shift from a marginalized cheap labour force to a more skilled workforce. This is a slow process if a country is finally caring enough to try.

The BBC put out a few stats on Venezuela but essentially says nothing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/country_profiles/1229345.stm

This is a fairly recent article from Mark Weisbrot (co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research (www.cepr.net) in Washington, DC.)

http://www.arsn.ca/bolivarian_corner/bolivarian102.htm

January 3, 2006

Foreign Policy Fantasies About Venezuela

By Mark Weisbrot

Thanks to Josh Eidelson for pointing out some of the flaws in Foreign Policy’s latest (January/February 2006) cover story, “Hugo Boss: “How Chavez is refashioning dictatorship for a democratic age.” The article is much worse than Eidelson describes it, as will be seen below. The idea that Venezuela is a dictatorship is absurd, as anyone who has been there in the last six years can attest to. All you have to do is go there, turn on the TV and listen to denunciations of the government on the biggest TV stations, pick up the biggest newspapers and see the same – in fact the media plays a non-journalistic oppositional role in politics that would not be allowed in most European democracies. Even in the United States, the long-lapsed Fairness Doctrine would quickly be brought back, if our media ever got to one-tenth the level of partisan political activity exhibited by Venezuela’s major broadcast and print media, which make Fox news look impeccably “fair and balanced” by comparison.

Let me correct one error in Eidelson’s description, which he may have gotten from the Foreign Policy article, before proceeding: the government of Venezuela has not been “keeping public databases on citizens' votes.” All voting is by secret ballot in Venezuela, and there is no record anywhere of any individual’s vote. What he might be referring to is the names of people who signed a petition to recall President Chavez in 2004. These petitions are a matter of public record, as similar petitions generally are in the United States; and in fact not only the government, but Sumate, the U.S.-funded opposition group that organized the recall effort, also kept a record of these signers. A legislator subsequently made the names of signers public, causing considerable controversy.

Now for some of the mistakes in the Foreign Policy piece by Javier Corrales:

“Chavez is “now approaching a decade in office.” [p.33] Hugo Chavez took office in February of 1999. I have never seen anyone round up to 10 from a number just under 7. Perhaps the subtitle of this article should have been “Refashioning Arithmetic for an Innumerate Age.”

“the poor do not support him [Chavez] en masse.” [p.35] This can be refuted by any recent poll, as well as by opposition pollsters themselves. Chavez’ recent approval ratings have ranged from 65 to 77 percent. Where does this support come from? The upper classes? Perhaps this is another arithmetic problem. Also, a look at the results of the August 2004 referendum, which Chavez won by 59-41 percent, shows one of the most polarized voting patterns in the hemisphere, with poor areas voting overwhelmingly for Chavez and the richer areas voting overwhelmingly against him.

“Chavez has failed to improve any meaningful measure of poverty, education, and equity.” [p.35] As I noted in a prior post: The official poverty rate now stands at 38.5 percent, but that counts only cash income. For example, if the United States were to abolish food stamps and Medicaid, poor people here would be much worse off. Similarly, the subsidized food and free health care now available in Venezuela have significantly increased living standards among the poor. More than 40 percent of the country buys subsidized food, and millions of poor people have access to free health care that was previously unavailable. If these are taken into account, the measured poverty rate would drop well below 30 percent.

The poverty rate when Chavez took office, in the first quarter of 1999, was 42.8 percent. So there is a meaningful measure of poverty reduction, especially if non-cash benefits are taken into account. Also, the government declared in October that 1.48 million Venezuelans have been taught to read as a result of a massive literacy drive that began in 2003. Although there is so far no independent verification of the number, even if it turned out to be significantly overestimated, there is no doubt that a very large number of Venezuelans (total population: 25 million) have learned to read under the program.


“Following the 2004 recall referendum, in which Chavez won 58 percent of the vote, the opposition fell into a coma, shocked not so much by the results as by the ease with which international observers condoned the Electoral Council’s flimsy audit of the results.” [p. 39] Actually, according to all news reports at the time, they were shocked by the results; they announced that the referendum was stolen, and most of the opposition continues to maintain this position. There was nothing “flimsy” about the audit, and there is no more doubt about the results of this referendum than there is that Ronald Reagan beat Walter Mondale by a similar margin in 1984. I have explained this in a previous post, and in a paper refuting alleged statistical evidence of fraud, and so will not belabor the point here. Also, the Carter Center and the OAS did not simply “condone” an audit by the Venezuelan Electoral Council but were closely involved in the audit as observers and verified the results.

Corrales’ attempt to raise doubts about the referendum result is particularly disturbing in light of recent events in Venezuela. Most of the opposition parties boycotted the Venezuelan Congressional elections three weeks ago, on December 4. “We had a problem with the Venezuelan opposition, which assured us that they would not withdraw from the [electoral] process if certain conditions were met. These were met and despite this, they withdrew,” said Jose Miguel Insulza, head of the OAS, just this week.

The opposition’s primary argument for boycotting elections is that they cannot “trust” the electoral process, based on the conspiracy theory, widely held by the opposition in Venezuela, that the recall referendum was stolen.

Thus, with their own polls showing that they would win about 30 percent of the Congress, they opted for a long-term strategy of destabilization – to try to de-legitimize the government rather than participate in an open and transparent, democratic electoral process that was once again certified as such by international observers, this time including a 160-member team representing the European Union. Such has been the problem for several years: with the brief exception of the August 2004 referendum, wherein the opposition leadership temporarily agreed to play by the rules of democracy – until they lost the vote -- they had previously tried to overthrow the government by means of several oil strikes (one particularly economically devastating in 2002-2003) and a military coup in April 2002, which was supported by the Bush Administration.

The Bush Administration also appears to be at least tacitly supportive of the opposition leaders’ decision this month to withdraw from electoral politics altogether. In its zeal to create an imaginary “dictatorship” in Venezuela, the Foreign Policy article ignores this anti-democratic role of the opposition, supported by Washington. It is also worth noting that the opposition can pursue such tactics that would have no chance of success in most other democracies because it still controls most of the Venezuelan media.

The editors of Foreign Policy chimed in with a box [p.38] about Chavez accusing him of “meddling in the internal politics of his neighbors” – Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Nicaragua, and even Mexico. They neglect to mention that no evidence has yet surfaced for the allegations listed. Also, if Chavez is “meddling” inside Brazil and Colombia, it seems odd that he has such good relations with both of their presidents, who are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Perhaps they do not appreciate the “threat” that this “dictator” poses to their countries and the region.

There is little evidence that Venezuela today is less democratic than it has ever been, and in fact by most standard political science measures it is more democratic. Venezuela's main governance problem is not a weakening of democracy but a failure to improve the rule of law, a problem that it shares with the region. Contrary to the images conveyed by the Bush Administration and Foreign Policy magazine, the Venezuelan state is not an authoritarian or autocratic state but a weak state, including the executive branch. That is why the main victims of political repression in Venezuela in recent years have not been from the opposition – even the leaders of the April 2002 coup against Chavez, who would have been convicted, imprisoned, and possibly executed in the United States, are almost all still at large. The real victims of political repression are pro-Chavez peasants organizing for land reform in the countryside. Many have been killed, often by hired assassins, sometimes for simply asserting their rights under the law. Impunity is rampant in Venezuela: the state at many levels does not have the capacity to enforce the law, often even against murderers.

In any case there is much more in this article that is inaccurate, grossly exaggerated, or misleading – in fact that describes most of the piece. But rather than wasting more space on this, readers may want to write to the editors of Foreign Policy and ask them why they printed something like this. And rather than just printing a 300-word letter, will they ever allow the publication of an article on Venezuela from a different point of view, one that better reflects not only the view of most Venezuelans, but most of this hemisphere? This is unlikely, but it is worth asking them why such an article would be forbidden. It would presumably have to be of much higher quality than the present one and more accurate, not necessarily pro-Chavez, but something that respects democracy, even when poor people repeatedly elect a government that the U.S. State Department doesn’t like.
 

elevennevele

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

I once visited this man who lived in a Philippine shanty town. We all had to be surrounded by people because it was dangerous for us to be there. The person we visited lived in a... maybe what you could describe as a 14’ by 10’ box constucted out of discarded wood paneling. It looked like a wooden box (surrounded by other boxes for as far as you could see).

When some asked about his welfare the people who were there told us not to worry about him because he owned this home of his. That statement willl always stick with me.

He also presented himself with a sense of self-respect regardless of his situation and seemed a little too proud to accept money from us.
 

Curiosity

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

eleveneleven

Well posted and I give you a "A" for your passion and clarity in explaining your opinion on Sr. Chavez and the concept of "third world" and the expansive information you have given us to review.

I have to give you an "C" for making assumptions on me personally - but that's ok - people can't tell much from a forum. Much of the news both the U.S. and Canada gets is from North American sources - with the exception of the U.K. sources. I hardly think that is unusual and certainly not radical or ill intentioned. Because I read something however I cannot be easily influenced or changed - as my opinions take a good deal of time to be formed and because we are now discussing Chavez does not indicate that I read or heard some critics expounding and immediately made up my mind he was impaired.

Some of us have been watching Chavez' moves for a long time during his despotic rule - because of his oil capabilities and his desire to form alliances with those who seek to do harm with the U.S. people.

I assume you are aware we are at war.

It would appear eleven that when you disagree you accuse the author of posting information being made up or from uninformed sources. That's taking a great leap into space...

"Oogo" should be flattered for your lengthy defense and research concerning his policies... but being Oogo, he would expect it from everyone.
 

DurkaDurka

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Mar 15, 2006
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RE: Chavez: World faces c

Proud American: I blame the US for exporting America's Idol to Canada... that is a sin that shall not go unpunished.
 

Proud American

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
eleveneleven

Well posted and I give you a "A" for your passion and clarity in explaining your opinion on Sr. Chavez and the concept of "third world" and the expansive information you have given us to review.

I have to give you an "C" for making assumptions on me personally - but that's ok - people can't tell much from a forum. Much of the news both the U.S. and Canada gets is from North American sources - with the exception of the U.K. sources. I hardly think that is unusual and certainly not radical or ill intentioned. Because I read something however I cannot be easily influenced or changed - as my opinions take a good deal of time to be formed and because we are now discussing Chavez does not indicate that I read or heard some critics expounding and immediately made up my mind he was impaired.

Some of us have been watching Chavez' moves for a long time during his despotic rule - because of his oil capabilities and his desire to form alliances with those who seek to do harm with the U.S. people.

I assume you are aware we are at war.

It would appear eleven that when you disagree you accuse the author of posting information being made up or from uninformed sources. That's taking a great leap into space...

"Oogo" should be flattered for your lengthy defense and research concerning his policies... but being Oogo, he would expect it from everyone.

What sickens me is that Chavez is using the war in Iraq as a forum to make allies with, as you say, those who oppose the U.S. His speech stirred all this applause but yet, why can't his own people seem to escape the oppression he places on them daily? Go figure....

Anther thing that baffles me is that Chavez claims to be Christian, but yet has formed an "alliance" with the President of Iran who is Muslim and hates Christians! WOW!

I guess it's true when they say your enemies enemy is not your friend...LOL!
 

Curiosity

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

ProudAmerican

Agreed - and what we saw of the United Nations members revealed a great deal.

It is best all of this is out in the open - we are getting the story first hand instead of through the MSM filtering process.
 

Proud American

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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces c

DurkaDurka said:
Proud American: I blame the US for exporting America's Idol to Canada... that is a sin that shall not go unpunished.

Yeah, well I wish it would stay there because I can't stand it..... :roll:
 

elevennevele

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Mar 13, 2006
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

What assumption do I have of you Wednesday's Child? How is it that I deserved to be graded by you?

I don’t know you personally. I neither do I like to be judgmental on people. I do know that everyone on here cares in their own way. That everyone has a decent heart. I’ve stated that before.

This has nothing to do with why I post. I am not here to take aim at anyone. We all have private lives and live them. At best we are judged through the relationships we hold with the ones that share our lives. On here however, it is all irrelevant.

It’s more an assumption of you that you feel I have an assumption of you. I’m just responding to the content and there is no other way around the challenge if information presents itself as such. If what you posted came from someone else, I would still be here making my comments just the same to that other person.

I never came on here to make friends. It was later I realized that this was an actual community with the same people sharing movie interests, jokes, etc. and when I made that realization, I felt bad that I came on a little harsh in the very beginning.


Wednesday's Child said:
Some of us have been watching Chavez' moves for a long time during his despotic rule - because of his oil capabilities and his desire to form alliances with those who seek to do harm with the U.S. people.

These are the same countries who can equally be seen as being sought to become harmed by the USA. It’s hold the same validity from both angles.


Wednesday's Child said:
I assume you are aware we are at war.


Wednesday's Child, no matter what the situation is in the world, I will always try to discover and present the truth. There is no reason that can ever justify a silence of trying to present the truth. In fact war can sometimes be a failure of not disclosing 'truth'. Again, Iraq being obvious.

Wednesday's Child said:
It would appear eleven that when you disagree you accuse the author of posting information being made up or from uninformed sources. That's taking a great leap into space...

"Oogo" should be flattered for your lengthy defense and research concerning his policies... but being Oogo, he would expect it from everyone.


I don’t know where you are trying to go with this. I welcome any reliable sources. This is not coming from me. This is you trying to define me. And it comes with great irony given what you even began to chide me on with this post. Please show the same objectivity to my personal self that you are stating to hold me to account towards yourself. Stop makng this personal.
 

Curiosity

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2006/septiembre/22/152224.html

Berger cretica a rival para puesto en la ONU
Sería sombrío el futuro para el Consejo de Seguridad”, expresó
El presidente Óscar Berger expresó en

Por: Luisa F. Rodriguez, Francisco González Arrecis
(English language translation)

Guatemalan President Óscar Berger expressed concern during an interview in New York with the BBC Mundo network over the future of the United Nations Security Council if Venezuela manages to take the seat Guatemala is also competing for.

"If it's Venezuela, I greatly fear the Security Council will be worthless," Berger said.

The Guatemalan leader granted the interview after appearing before the U.N. last Wednesday.

Prensa Libre tried to get the opinion of Félix Méndez Correa, Venezuela's ambassador to Guatemala, but his secretary said that the diplomat received instructions from his country not to talk about the matter.

Berger affirmed during the interview that he has 110 votes secured out of the 127 required to occupy the non-permanent seat that Argentina is vacating.

He mentioned that countries such as the United States, Mexico, Canada, Colombia, and Peru are among those that have publicly expressed their support of Guatemala's candidacy.

He added that Spain has been added to the list. "President Rodríguez Zapatero and the Spanish team are also working for Guatemala," Berger commented.

Vice-President Eduardo Stein declined to comment on Berger's statements but made it clear that there is a risk if a country with antagonizing political ideas joins the Security Council.

"Most of the member states are looking for countries joining the Security Council that contribute solutions, but as long as they do not contribute such, they may provide an obstacle to the Council's decisions," Stein pointed out.

Controversy

Berger told the BBC: "Secretary[-General Kofi] Annan personally told me that, if Venezuela joins the Security Council, we will have many problems, because the large countries would continue with their own teams and will bypass the U.N., which would be dramatic."

However, Foreign Minister Gert Rosenthal clarified yesterday that Annan did not comment to Berger that, personally, he was worried about Venezuela belonging to the Security Council.

"The only thing I can clarify is that the Secretary[-General] made a general comment on the concerns that some countries had over the possibility that Venezuela will join the Council. It was never a personal comment or one that reflected any position from the U.N.," Rosenthal explained.

The official offered these referenced statements at U.N. headquarters where he is holding bilateral meetings with several countries in order to earn the necessary votes for Guatemala to join the Security Council.

Seeking Support

The Foreign Minister must spend three more weeks in New York to meet with his counterparts and get support for the country.

"We have no better lobbyist than Rosenthal, given the prestige and knowledge he has on the United Nations system," Stein pointed out.
 

Toro

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Remember when people around here (long since diparted) actually believed Bush really was part of a "Satanic Cabal?"

http://www.canadiancontent.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6177&highlight=

:lol: :lol:

The pictures are off that web site. I wanted to post the one with Satan standing behind Bush. Its gone, so I'll put it in my avatar in recognition of Hugh Chav's speech.

EDIT - I had it on my hard drive.

This was the picture.

 

fuzzylogix

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Apr 7, 2006
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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

jimmoyer said:
Let's get this straight about Venezuela oil.

It is a very thick crude oil, expensive to refine
and process.

Right now Chavez is enjoying a bubble.

Let's get this straight about the Tar Sands.

Expensive to refine and process. Alberta is enjoying a bubble.

Or..........will the expense be worth it one day when the oil is unobtainable else where???? The US thinks so. China thinks so.
 

fuzzylogix

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Apr 7, 2006
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Shocking news about Venezuelan protests against Chavez,

Gee, let's see- help me out here folks-- were there any protests against the election of Bush or his policies?????

gee- didn't the cops have to be called in to quell some of the protests? and didnt they have to block off access to some areas during the Inaugurational Ball to quell any protests??

Of course, I cant remember, but was there ever any discussion of voting fraud during Bush's election????

And of course, American presidents are humble and self deprecating, never narcissistic.


The Americans should be impeaching Bush for his failure to create vital economic ties with Venezuela.
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

fuzzylogix said:
Shocking news about Venezuelan protests against Chavez,

Gee, let's see- help me out here folks-- were there any protests against the election of Bush or his policies?????

Yes, were you sleeping during the protests?

fuzzylogix said:
gee- didn't the cops have to be called in to quell some of the protests? and didnt they have to block off access to some areas during the Inaugurational Ball to quell any protests??

Yes, and your point?

Of course, I cant remember, but was there ever any discussion of voting fraud during Bush's election????

fuzzylogix said:
And of course, American presidents are humble and self deprecating, never narcissistic.

Actually most of the time, they're arrogant pricks. Again your point?

fuzzylogix said:
The Americans should be impeaching Bush for his failure to create vital economic ties with Venezuela.

Why would Chavez want to create ties with the devil?
 

Proud American

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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

I think not said:
fuzzylogix said:
Shocking news about Venezuelan protests against Chavez,

Gee, let's see- help me out here folks-- were there any protests against the election of Bush or his policies?????

Yes, were you sleeping during the protests?

fuzzylogix said:
gee- didn't the cops have to be called in to quell some of the protests? and didnt they have to block off access to some areas during the Inaugurational Ball to quell any protests??

Yes, and your point?

Of course, I cant remember, but was there ever any discussion of voting fraud during Bush's election????

fuzzylogix said:
And of course, American presidents are humble and self deprecating, never narcissistic.

Actually most of the time, they're arrogant pricks. Again your point?

fuzzylogix said:
The Americans should be impeaching Bush for his failure to create vital economic ties with Venezuela.

Why would Chavez want to create ties with the devil?

No more importantly, why does the U.S need ties with a dictorial, rat ass, backwoods country like Venezuela???? WHAT?? To give them something else to talk about!! LOL!!!! :lol: (all sneaky US hating backstabbing countries).."Damn, they have linked with Venezuela, now they are REALLY a threat!!".....ROTFLMBO!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)
 

fuzzylogix

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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Rattle your chains, boys.

It' s all about control. Control over resources. You can fool yourselves all you want that Venezuela ain't important to the US. You can fool yourselves all you want that Bolivia ain't important to the US. And you can really try to fool yourselves that it doesn't matter that Chavez is creating a strong South American unity in trade and ideation that wont be controlled by the US.

Sure, and you can go and listen to Bush explain that it is ALL because Chavez is a leftie liberal who hates the US.

Yeah, he is. So what? He is doing a darn site more for his own people than Bush is doing for your poor in New Orleans. Or your poor in inner city New York. I'd like to see Bush expropriate Cheney's favourite elitist golf course to build housing for the people of New Orleans.
 

Curiosity

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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Chavez "oil gift" to poor Alaskan residents

The MSM have ceased mentioning that Chavez offered heating oil to Alaska residents as well as his widely promoted New York gifts.

I guess they were reminded Alaska gives $1000 annually to each resident of Alaska resulting from oil profits (even though declining and will probably be less each year ) paid also to - get this - the out of state Alaskan residents!

Such a deal - like they really need Chavez' help. I guess his handlers got to him and explained about Alaska...

Now if the handlers would explain Chavez to the American people.... :roll:
 

Logic 7

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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

fuzzylogix said:
Yeah, he is. So what? He is doing a darn site more for his own people than Bush is doing for your poor in New Orleans. Or your poor in inner city New York. I'd like to see Bush expropriate Cheney's favourite elitist golf course to build housing for the people of New Orleans.


Americans, when they have a good president, or at lleast better than anything they had, they assasinate him, they prefer to have brainless president, i guess it represent what they are.
 

Logic 7

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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Proud American said:
No more importantly, why does the U.S need ties with a dictorial, rat ass, backwoods country like Venezuela???? WHAT?? To give them something else to talk about!! LOL!!!! :lol: (all sneaky US hating backstabbing countries).."Damn, they have linked with Venezuela, now they are REALLY a threat!!".....ROTFLMBO!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)


Why the world should deal with backward country like usa?? where they only thing they have in mind, is to bomb country around the world, based on a lie?? i wish all leaders would be like chavez, us would go down way faster, and once you guys are down, nobody will care.