Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or survival

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Eleven your post are nothing more than Bush/USA bashing balony. Chavez is a Communist Dictator, Socialism is nothing more than the "Ugly Baby" of Communism. Wait a few years and as this "Baby" grows up you will see the ugly face of Chavez and the acts of cruelty he will inforce on those who oppose him. He's a pox on the souls that he rules.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
I haven't bought into the U.S. argument - the facts speak for themselves - Chavez has proven himself to be dictatorial and if you believe the propositions he will "take care of the poor in the U.S. regarding heating oil"....you might want to see how he treats the poor of Venezuela. What he says and what he actually does do not compute. This is nothing new in politics.



Hey, I didn’t want to take the position of necessarily defending Chavez on all levels. There are aspects to they way he has reformed areas of government which are very questionable. As for the protests some of them were disrupters of the society causing mayhem for the representation of the elite class that wanted to over throw him and maintain control over Venezuelan oil. I’m not sure if martial law would have been enforced if those types of “protest” were carried out in Canada. They were definitely not peaceful in nature.

The test however was the elections that followed. Elections that followed what had happened and the population had an opportunity to vote Chavez out. They didn’t.

You were suggesting he is a dictator and technically he can’t be because he is democratically elected (twice).

From your own article...

Chavez, who had been shoring up his standing with the Venezuelan poor during the delays, won the referendum with an overwhelming 58% of the vote. The opposition alleged fraud, but international observers confirmed that there had been no irregularities. Chavez's hand was clearly strengthened, and by the spring of 2005, his popularity rating reached 70%, due in large part to his social spending programs. In Dec. 2005 parliamentary elections, Chávez's Fifth Republic Movement won 114 of 167 seats, and the remaining seats were won by his allies.


Of course the opposition are sour grapes. Oh an he did genuinely offer heating oil to the US poor. You think the US is going to spin that in a positive fashion? It’s an embarrassment for them.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Sassylassie said:
Eleven your post are nothing more than Bush/USA bashing balony. Chavez is a Communist Dictator, Socialism is nothing more than the "Ugly Baby" of Communism. Wait a few years and as this "Baby" grows up you will see the ugly face of Chavez and the acts of cruelty he will inforce on those who oppose him. He's a pox on the souls that he rules.


Oh please. Give up on the anti USA tripe. I loved much of the USA. I've made many trips. I loved many aspects of what that country once was. As such, pre-Harper, I wasted so my time debating with Americans and warning them of all the red flags they should be taking note of. What things they should be vigilant to protect of their society. I always got the response, "This is America. It can't happen here". Now they even have illegal wiretappings openly admitted by the government. What a joke. And Nixon was impeached? People weren't officially sanctioned to get tortured. Well excuse me for being harsh with my criticisms.

Seriously. And what is there not to bash about Bush? You tell me what is so great about Bush? Tell me what he has done that you wish to admonish? So where am I off on the mark here?

I don't want to defend Chavez on all levels but I have to take aim on inaccuracies. Also if you don't think the USA isn’t trying to demonize the guy beyond what is true then you are in ‘fairlyland’ because most of what we have to source about Chavez comes out of the USA. Oh, and is the USA a great purveyor of truth these days?

I see Bush as being no less a dictator. He has control of all three branches of government and how his had lied the country into the Iraq War which shored up his support and exerts his power makes it all very questionable.

Sure I'll wait to see if Chavez ends up going wrong in the future. I suspend any judgement towards the future. Hey, it's not like I'm defending him for any unwritten future.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
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RE: Chavez: World faces c

I think people here are confusing me taking aim with inaccuracies on Chavez for supporting him. Look people, I don’t go around holding Chavez up as any model for leadership. I just know the US government’s stance on Chavez is more an attack on a leader they feel threatened by. Not by military means, but by the influence he generates which results in a loss of control of the USA in Latin America and a lean towards socialistic policies. That isn’t evil in itself. As long as elections are still valid in that part of the world. On the flip side, the USA has been known to unseat democratically elected leaders and install puppet regimes.

The USA is losing control of South and Central America and they don’t like it. That is mostly the real story that tries not to be told.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Eleveneleven

About Chavez' offer of heating oil to keep the people warm in the coming winter - that was a kind offer - 100 bbs. of heating oil worth $6.00/bbl. is warm news for the people in Alaska and Canada who qualify - and it is a generous gift on Chavez' part - $600 bucks per household unit.

Thing is Eleveneleven - the U.S. has donated far more though the United Nations and out of its own pocket directly to countries in need or in war or experiencing natural disaster, for as long as I have been alive and nobody totals it up so we have to memorize the amount per family. I don't see any acknowledgements here from people like you who are so willing to tank the U.S.

Think about it.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

http://www.adn.com/money/industries/oil/story/8214591p-8111809c.html


Hugo's gift to the needy - $5 million
Venezuelan firm will buy fuel oil for villagers
CITGO: Government-run company to give 100 gallons each to homes.


By ALEX DeMARBAN
Anchorage Daily News

Published: September 20, 2006
Last Modified: September 20, 2006 at 06:55 PM


A Venezuelan-owned oil company will warm 12,000 rural Alaska homes this winter with an enormous gift of heating fuel that some elated residents in the Bush call a godsend -- and ironic.


The donation from Houston-based Citgo will buy 100 gallons of fuel for every household in 151 villages. But the gift worth roughly $5 million comes courtesy of a country whose leftist president is pals with America's enemies and supports Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Hugo Chavez also calls our president mean things, such as "genocidal murderer" and "madman."

Margaret Williams of Hughes in the Interior said it doesn't matter who's providing the heating fuel, which costs about $6 a gallon in the Koyukuk River village of 69.

"We sure could welcome it," she said. "As long as we don't have to pay."

In the Kobuk River village of Ambler, heating fuel is running more than $7 a gallon.

Residents in the village of 283 and surrounding villages are ecstatic, said tribal administrator Virginia Commack. "It's a miracle," she said.

Each household will save more than $700 in fuel costs this winter, freeing cash for people to spend on gasoline so they can hunt more caribou and moose, she said.

The donation will especially help the elderly, who live on fixed incomes and can't travel to gather wood, she said.

Daniel Ellanak, a Navy veteran who works for the tribal government on Ouzinkie near Kodiak Island, is inadvertently responsible for the gift, which could provide a couple of months of heating fuel for many homes.

In May, he gave a presentation at a tribal environmental conference near San Diego that touched on village fuel woes, he said.

A representative of Citgo, an oil refiner owned by Venezuela's national oil company, was in the audience and approached him. He told Ellanak about the company's effort to provide fuel to poor people and offered to help Alaskans.

"His point was big oil is not without compassion," said Ellanak.

Ellanak is torn between the good fortune for struggling villagers and Chavez's possible political gamesmanship.

The other day, "I was watching the ticker tape on the news and Hugo Chavez was partnering with Iran and I was like 'Oh my god,' " he said.

Experts on Latin American policy are divided over whether the gift is genuine generosity or a political ploy meant to bring Chavez more support on the world stage.

The program began last year after Hurricane Katrina flooded New Orleans and Chavez toured poor neighborhoods in the Bronx, said David McCollum, Citgo spokesman

"He wanted us to do everything we could to assist people," said McCollum, reached in Houston.

Last year, Citgo sold 40 million gallons of heating fuel -- with a 40 percent discount off the wholesale price -- to households in states along the East Coast, he said.

Now, Chavez wants to help out Alaska Natives and tribes in the Northwest, he said.

Abraham Lowenthal, an international relations professor at the University of Southern California, said Chavez is "trying to show up the U.S. government and the Bush administration for not being as responsive to the needs of American citizens as Venezuela can be."

By doing so, Chavez gains support from countries that don't like Bush or his policies, Lowenthal said.

Chavez, who sits on one of the world's largest oil reserves, has also turned his "petro-dollar windfall" into humanitarian programs in several Latin American countries, Lowenthal said.

He wants those countries to support Venezuela's bid to gain a seat on the United Nations Security Council, and thereby increase its influence, he said.

Larry Birns, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs, said Chavez is just being generous.

"He feels that nations with wealth have an implicit responsibility to help their neighbors and maybe those Alaska oil companies will get the same idea," Birns said.

Venezuela's U.S. ambassador in Washington, D.C., could not be reached for comment this week.

Most rural residents don't care about the politics, said Steve Sumida, acting director of the Alaska Inter-Tribal Council. They just want to stay warm this winter, he said.

The council, a nonprofit representing Alaska's tribal governments, agreed to spearhead the program in Alaska with help from regional Native nonprofits. The money is intended to buy oil and all help has been volunteer.

Sumida hopes the program will begin Nov. 1, with nonprofits receiving Citgo money and buying fuel for villages with more than 80 percent Alaska Native populations, he said.

Diesel-powered communities have struggled to keep their lights on, Sumida said. Fuel is shipped to most Bush communities by barge or plane, which greatly increases the costs.

Alaska households paid an average of about $3.40 a gallon for heating last fall, according to a study by the state Division of Community Advocacy.

Prices have risen sharply since then, with many of the qualifying communities paying close to $5 a gallon or more this year, said Lynn Zender of Zender Environmental in Anchorage.

She volunteered to gather the information after hearing about the Citgo program.

The state has no program that exists solely to provide heating help directly to households, said Ellie Fitzjarrald, acting director of the Division of Public Assistance.

But her division, along with tribal governments, does administer the federally funded Low Income Housing Energy Assistance Program. That provided $17 million last year to households, she said.

The 100-gallon gift won't last all winter, but it will be a huge help, said James James, the tribal administrator in Tununak.

Tununak, a Bering Sea village of 328, gets barge-shipped fuel for relatively cheap, he said. It's $2.90 a gallon there now, he said.

People will have more money to travel to hunt seals and fish for whitefish under frozen lakes and rivers this winter, he said.

He wouldn't comment on the political back story.

"What Venezuela is doing is very awesome and we appreciate them doing it," he said.
Daily News reporter Alex deMarban can be reached at ademarban@adn.com or 257-4310.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
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RE: Chavez: World faces c

Sorry for edits. They are edits prior to any responses. I keep having to go back and refine some grammar or wording. I type as I think.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

The USA is losing control of South and Central America and they don’t like it. That is mostly the real story that tries not to be told.
-----------------------------elevenevele----------------------

That is the real story not being told ??

I think that story is getting pounded daily like
a jack hammer mantra.

And why?

It's not like no one knows it.

That story is boring compared to those matters
we overlook with the aggrandizement of Chavez
and his comic Diablo rhetoric.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
Eleveneleven
Thing is Eleveneleven - the U.S. has donated far more though the United Nations and out of its own pocket directly to countries in need or in war or experiencing natural disaster, for as long as I have been alive and nobody totals it up so we have to memorize the amount per family. I don't see any acknowledgements here from people like you who are so willing to tank the U.S.

Think about it.


How about this...

The USA was the world leader in humanitarian aid and support (pre-Bush). They were a great example and contributor to human development and were very pro-active doing it. They were (pre-Bush), wiping the slate from certain aspects of their history that had tarnished them and moving into a new Golden Age. They (pre-Bush) were respected by all globally and influenced much change via that respect.

They were going in a great direction (pre-Bush), and I once believed were going to be the technological leader of the world (pre-Bush but now starting to quickly let China and India take over in areas of technology). They were going to continue to provide society with some of the greatest technological innovations (pre-Bush) for the improved quality of living, and I believed in it so much to the extend that I once invested heavily into their economy (yes, I had once put a lot of my money on these beliefs).

They are not a country without flaws, they could have been one of the greatest neighbours (pre-Bush) for Canada, both in terms of trade/economic benefits, and influential world leadership (pre-Bush).

Again, I once thought they were going to usher in a new golden age for the world.



But this isn’t today's reality. They may try to hold themselves high by the standards they have ironically pushed aside of themselves in today’s age. However their per capita contributions are not as quantifiable anymore as well as their slow abandonment of their own people’s welfare. Moreover, the destructive havoc they have wreaked in today’s current history in conjunction with the hands of other fanatics during an age of information and communication have been completely inexcusable. They have become a nation that uses torture and inhumane conduct. I don’t excuse any nation for that. I wouldn’t even excuse Canada.

Does anybody think I wouldn't be on here saying the same stuff if it were Canada? And it would be because of the love of this country that I would be such a harsh critic.

In fighting the monster one must always take great care in not becoming the monster, and I feel sorry for the ordinary American citizen who is having to have to pay the piper in the end for all of it.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

The USA was the world leader in humanitarian aid and support (pre-Bush).
------------------elevenevele--------------------------------

Was ?

That is statistically incorrect.

The usual mistake is comparing percentages of
national govt budgets going to foreign aid.

Even if you just compare that percentage, it is
dwarfed by the aggregate amount coming from
American taxpayers.

But don't forget to add the aircraft carriers being
the first at a disaster zone.

Don't forget that American private charity dwarfs
the world's contribution.

And don't forget the Bush AIDS to Africa program
that dwarfs any single nation's response.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

From having helped create the UN, from having helped promote the values of the UN, from having contributed to the UN to try to make it into a functioning body, from commanding the respect to influence the UN...

... the USA now actively tries to make it ineffective. They try to discredit it. By their very actions they don’t want a UN body they helped to create have any means to push some accountability on them. To place them on any hot seat for many of their inhumane actions in the world that they would have once championed against.

It’s so very obvious. They have the veto power that many countries do not. They do not want a functioning UN because they themselves do not function under it.

And yet, it was a UN that at one time amounted to a trophy accomplishment by the US for a better world. Do you think that if such a creation were accomplished today, it would be located in the United States? That is a visual cue to how far that country has fallen. Bush now wants the Geneva conventions to be modified so he can be in accordance to his policies of torture. This same Geneva conventions helped protect US servicemen by the pressure it placed on POW treatment by warring sides.

Nothing is perfect in a very imperfect world as with the UN, but this is truly a loss for everyone. A loss for everyone in the hopes of making the world a better place. A means to bring people together and try to bring them in accordance to standards the world can accept.

A pre-Bush America would have championed bringing positive reform to the UN. Would have tried to make it more effective as an international body. Would have expounded on it’s virtues and potential at doing good and would have worked to make such more and more a reality. A pre-Bush America would have been a UN model.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

the USA now actively tries to make it ineffective.
------------------elevenevele---------------------------------

That's a lopsided statement.

You don't think the blame is much more evenly
proportioned than what you assert ?
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

jimmoyer said:
Even if you just compare that percentage, it is
dwarfed by the aggregate amount coming from
American taxpayers.


Yes, the American taxpayer. I give kudos to the American taxpayer and all the private organization that is occurring. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Bill Clinton’s initiative, etc.

That is a different thing in my mind.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

jimmoyer said:
the USA now actively tries to make it ineffective.
------------------elevenevele---------------------------------

That's a lopsided statement.

You don't think the blame is much more evenly
proportioned than what you assert ?



Not when you consider how much the US can tip the scales and the influence they can project (or once could more greatly project). Look at all the vetoes that come out of the US against accountability towards human rights violations. That's not right.

Going against the UN to have the Iraq war is however probably the biggest example of delineating the capacity for the UN to be an effective voice. It didn’t matter what the UN had to say, the USA was going to have it’s war and look at the result.

In in accordance to that, the USA publicly bashing the UN calling it ‘ineffective’. There is serious ramifications in doing that. It seriously compromises such an International body that would have traditionally had the USA at the forefront of it’s capacity to remain important.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Your assumptions don't comport with observations.

Since you assume that Amerika has all this
power to persuade the UN, you might want to explain
why most Amerikan proposals are either vetoed
by other security council members, or voted against
by easy majority in the greater assembly ???

Don't get me wrong, United States could do more as you say.
I support the continued existence of the UN as a venue available
for any true critical mass of opinion, while knowing most of the time
its ineffectiveness can be blamed throughout each member.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

The "pre Bush Argument" is ridiculous....

The U.N. has ignored the military patrol at the DMZ between the Koreas since the 50s and has never compensated the U.S.A. for its "peacekeeping force" left to hang out.

The whole concept of the United Nations has become a gang of thieves seeking only for personal betterment, minimal improvements to their countries and living large off money given in hope the world would become improved - it has not and it has nothing to do with who is in power in the U.S. as president.

Eleveneleven - you are indoctrinated. If you believe one man can make such a difference in our world, you have given far more power to Bush than he will ever be able to credit or debit for.

Personally I think he is certainly not smart enough to do all the evil people attribute to him.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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RE: Chavez: World faces c

Which measures? You'll have to put forth which measures the USA has put forth for me to have an opinion on it. Anyway, I've probably said enough for today. I have some wonderful work I would like to concentrate on.

I'm not out there arguing with Americans anymore, except here I guess. Everything they need to know is out there now. It's their country to get back on course (though the world suffers when they are not on course).

USA greatness did not come about through isolation. It came about though active partnerships globally. To recognize that is to show a greater appreciation outside their borders. Non of this “freedom fries” garbage. They were super resourceful country, but the rest of the world was an integral part in helping them to become great. They’ve lost sight of the respect they offered and thus commanded. They have decided at times now to be a lone kid who plays with himself telling himself that he is great.

Meanwhile China and countries like it are taking hold of areas of trade the USA could have entered through the front door. The USA has been our partners in the world but have fallen into vice and are too proud to see a counselor or recognize a second opinion for it.

I really hope they can change it around for themselves. They know everything they need to know. They can find out everything they need to know with the technology out there. To do what is right. It’s up to them now.

Canada is now my great concern. I just don’t want us slip up too. I want a push for progress here. Not drastic ideological change. Our Canadian values are worthy to maintain. No society is without it’s problems. We should not however magnify the issues we face only to then take radical approaches. I always thought change through Conservativism was still change, but at a slower pace. A protective pace.

I just do not want Canada to lose sight of itself as the US has for itself.

For them, what a change.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
Eleveneleven - you are indoctrinated. If you believe one man can make such a difference in our world, you have given far more power to Bush than he will ever be able to credit or debit for.

Personally I think he is certainly not smart enough to do all the evil people attribute to him.


This one man has done so much to change things. And no, I don’t think he is smart enough. I just see him as just a charismatic frontman for those who really push the US agenda.

Indoctrinated by who? I’m leary of everyone.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Wednesday's Child said:
The whole concept of the United Nations has become a gang of thieves seeking only for personal betterment, minimal improvements to their countries and living large off money given in hope the world would become improved - it has not and it has nothing to do with who is in power in the U.S. as president.



The UN is only as good as it’s members (especially it's important members). The USA was a very important member. If you don’t feel that is true, then that is fine. I’m not the one marginalizing the USA in this argument. You are. The USA, a country which became elevated to the only real superpower after the Solviet Union fell with a powerful economic and culturally influential reach that is/was everywhere.