Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or survival

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Gosh, this is getting scary. Has the Canadian government told Canadians that their floating costs for energy are offset by gains in their pension plans? Sounds darkly nebulous to me. Why would any oil rich country - like Canada - throw its citizens to the wolves during extended periods of market brinkmanship? Months where international speculators have the market by the gonads and are shaking the hell ouf of it. No shortage of supply. None! Oil markets totally working at the behest of the rich getting richer and Mama Oil - Canada - says 'eat cake!'
So are Canucks about to hit the streets over this? Venezuelans, Brazilians, Saudi Arabians would.

It sounds darkly nebulous if you don't understand it.

Canadians are benefiting directly in the profits of the oil industry.

And, in case you didn't know it, Canada is a big exporter of oil. High oil prices are a net benefit to Canada.

 

[tamarin]

RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

So would the Joe on the street who has to drive to work or heat his home with oil agree with you? That he's benefiting from price hikes that directly affect his disposable income? Would the retiree agree with you whose pension plan is inflation adjusted but the adjustment only follows core rates and the core rates exclude energy hikes?
Would they?

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

So would the Joe on the street who has to drive to work or heat his home with oil agree with you? That he's benefiting from price hikes that directly affect his disposable income? Would the retiree agree with you whose pension plan is inflation adjusted but the adjustment only follows core rates and the core rates exclude energy hikes?
Would they?

Depends who it is, isn't it?

Canada is a net beneficiary. That's why there are so many people moving to Calgary they have to stay in tents - a city where you can see the unencumbered egdes of the prairies all around the city if you are on a high enough building.

Arguing that high oil prices are bad for Canada is like arguing that the high price of virtually anything in which Canada is a net exporter is bad for Canada. High prices of cars is bad for Canada using that logic. Guess we should sell all Canadian cars at $2000 a pop.

 

[tamarin]

RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

No, this is too good a topic to let it seep into the terrain. Using your logic and the substance of your argument and the butter of your position, one can only assume the higher the cost of oil the greater the benefit to the public. Surely, if $70 a barrel crude is good then $100 has to be better and $150 would be excellent. True? And the Canadian government taking a 'free market' position would blithely allow Canadians to pay an ever increasing share of their income to the energy sharks and barons. Without protection. At some point the 'benefit' has to be questionable. I'll let you choose. The people around here say it's - now.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

No, this is too good a topic to let it seep into the terrain. Using your logic and the substance of your argument and the butter of your position, one can only assume the higher the cost of oil the greater the benefit to the public. Surely, if $70 a barrel crude is good then $100 has to be better and $150 would be excellent. True?

The greater the net benefit to the public. You may not benefit. Your friends may not benefit. But that doesn't mean the country as a whole doesn't benefit.

Because Canada is an exporter of energy, higher prices benefit Canada. Canada's terms of trade improves.

That's the second class of Econ 101. Its simple stuff.

And the Canadian government taking a 'free market' position would blithely allow Canadians to pay an ever increasing share of their income to the energy sharks and barons. Without protection. At some point the 'benefit' has to be questionable. I'll let you choose. The people around here say it's - now.

Oh, "the people" do, do they? Is that why Canadians elected a pro-business Liberal government who gave tax breaks to energy companies to invest in the tar sands? Is that why they elected the even-more-pro-business Tory government? Is that why all the energy producing provinces have elected either Liberal or Conservative governments, save one in Saskatchewan, where the NDP are saying nothing about re-nationalizing the oil industry?

Its also incorrect, because taxes from the oil companies go to pay for welfare, healthcare, etc. Governments can design any policies they want.

Nice class-baiting argument BTW.

Besides, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the one saying there's too many people in the world?

I love it when environmentalists complain when oil prices are too high. It should be very apparent why this is a tremendous contradiction. If environmentalists had a clue, they'd be advocating $500 oil.

 

[tamarin]

RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Canadians elect governments for no other reason than that they hope those governments will improve their lives. Most still think the main beneficiaries of high oil and energy prices are out there. But it's not them. In the end, when all is said and done, we're living in a resource rich country that seems poorly equipped to respond to the resource needs of its citizens. It's like having your mom work in a bakery knowing someone else always gets to eat the pie.
I'm pro business, a longtime market participant, a former smalltime commodities trader as well. But I knew then and I know now I was being handed the lever to a system whose first interest was my own. Energy is too big a component of people's lives to let it be a market football for folks who think it's no different than a game of pool.

 

[steve.dap]

Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Another "devil" visits Canada. Picture in Saturday's Globe & Mail (p.8 print edition).

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

From one of your links:

Petroleos de Venezuela's (PDVSA) net crude oil production has dropped to 1.35 million barrels per day (bpd), says Jose Guerra, a former chief economist for the Venezuelan Central Bank. This estimate does not include about 1 million bpd produced by foreign oil companies under four so-called "strategic associations" in the Orinoco heavy oil belt and 32 recently nullified marginal oilfield operating contracts.

I must admit I am confused by total oil production numbers which do not include all oil production, but that seems what's going on.

Even the CIA gives this estimate:
3.081 million bbl/day (2005 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ve.html#Econ

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Governance and economy while working in correspondence to one another are are two separate things. A country can be every economically wealthy, but can show poor governance to it’s citizens.

It’s ironic that the poor in the USA have to watch their government shun donations of oil/fuel from Venezuela, and yet their government doesn’t really do anything to alleviate the burden on it’s poor after rejecting such donations. Oh yeah, and yet the USA is a rich nation on top of this issue.

It’s funny how we scrutinize Chavez through oil. Everything seems to always be about oil. How about we let the people of Venezuela have the right to decide their own leadership. He was democratically elected twice with international observers confirming that there had been no irregularities. It should be their right to have the leader of their choice through democratic means.

Meanwhile China isn’t even a democracy and the USA government really has no courage to stand up to them anymore. Not even protest Tibet. Even China and Russia are trying to work with Iran. And then there is France and other countries, but for some reason it's suppose to be all about Venezuela.

I’m sorry, but even if some leader of some country decided to publicly call Bush a “M’fer”, It wouldn’t give the USA any right to do anything about it other than what they wish with regards to their own rights of commerce with that country. But that really is about it.

Despite some valid criticisms towards a few questionable reforms, the poor in Venezuela were worst off before Chavez. Now they at least have free health care and literacy programs, schools built that were never built before for them, etc. Perhaps the country needs a Chavez stage before moving to a new plateau in the future. I don’t see the USA creating any stable democracies in the world to really boast about.

The real story is that the USA is losing it’s influence in Latin America as Chavez shows himself to stand up against America hegemony. That as well as losing control over Venezuelan oil. The USA isn’t so much concerned about the Venezuelan people as they are concerned about their business interests.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710


Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
by Jessica Pupovac

As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to benefit low-income people.

Chicago; Dec. 28, 2005 – The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget shortfalls.

In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.

But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.

According to Venezuela’s consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez, the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the discount offer.

In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

"In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash."


Brilliant. Yeah, I sure wish to know about 'good and evil' as the USA sees it.

Oh and the USA isn’t bad to it’s own people right? Just Chavez as per the USA vision of the world. What a mansion of a glass house! I mean, with how wealthy the USA is they are able to own the largest glass house after all.

 

[Proud American]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

"In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash."


Brilliant. Yeah, I sure wish to know about 'good and evil' as the USA sees it.

Oh and the USA isn’t bad to it’s own people right? Just Chavez as per the USA vision of the world. What a mansion of a glass house! I mean, with how wealthy the USA is they are able to own the largest glass house after all.

Hummmm..wealthy, with a SEVEN HUNDRED BILLION $$$ budget deficit because we are "borrowing money from CHINA????? 8O , and who said the U.S wasn't bad to its' own people?? Have you tried talking to a middle class family such as myself who is trying to make it when we keep getting stuck in the ass with all the taxes to support the already WEALTHY but we are "too wealthy" (HA HA) to get any real health benefits?? Or maybe try going in to poorer parts of the country where they get ABSOLUTELY NO HELP at all because the "Bush CLan" thinks they are unimportant??? Been to Louisiana lately? Where almost 1500 people lost their lives UNNECESSARILY because of our governments slow response or lack of concern to even PRETEND they WANTED to help?? Still looks the same down there as it did the day after the storm........ BOy, do you have it wrong.... :roll:

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Hummmm..wealthy, with a SEVEN HUNDRED BILLION $$$ budget deficit because we are "borrowing money from CHINA????? 8O , and who said the U.S wasn't bad to its' own people?? Have you tried talking to a middle class family such as myself who is trying to make it when we keep getting stuck in the ass with all the taxes to support the already WEALTHY but we are "too wealthy" (HA HA) to get any real health benefits?? Or maybe try going in to poorer parts of the country where they get ABSOLUTELY NO HELP at all because the "Bush CLan" thinks they are unimportant??? Been to Louisiana lately? Where almost 1500 people lost their lives UNNECESSARILY because of our governments slow response or lack of concern to even PRETEND they WANTED to help?? Still looks the same down there as it did the day after the storm........ BOy, do you have it wrong.... :roll:

I have it wrong?! I'm in total agreement with you!

I’ll be the first in line to back up everything you’ve just said, and I so believe that Americans like yourself deserve so so much better.

You are totally right.

 

[elevennevele]

RE: Chavez: World faces c

Yes I am very aware of that deficit and which countries have been floating that debt. I do make my points sometimes with irony.

The USA as a rich nation is debatable depending on which side you are arguing from. The corporate side of the US seems to be doing well and there has been a lot of wealth creation for the already wealthy. It’s the government that is going broke with services getting slashed for the working person at the state level.

Mostly I find that Americans are just more comfortable being told that they are a wealthy nation, and the last thing I wanted was to be drawn into another argument from the one I’m trying to make.

 

[Proud American]

Re: RE: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or

Hummmm..wealthy, with a SEVEN HUNDRED BILLION $$$ budget deficit because we are "borrowing money from CHINA????? 8O , and who said the U.S wasn't bad to its' own people?? Have you tried talking to a middle class family such as myself who is trying to make it when we keep getting stuck in the ass with all the taxes to support the already WEALTHY but we are "too wealthy" (HA HA) to get any real health benefits?? Or maybe try going in to poorer parts of the country where they get ABSOLUTELY NO HELP at all because the "Bush CLan" thinks they are unimportant??? Been to Louisiana lately? Where almost 1500 people lost their lives UNNECESSARILY because of our governments slow response or lack of concern to even PRETEND they WANTED to help?? Still looks the same down there as it did the day after the storm........ BOy, do you have it wrong.... :roll:

I have it wrong?! I'm in total agreement with you!

I’ll be the first in line to back up everything you’ve just said, and I so believe that Americans like yourself deserve so so much better.

You are totally right.

Thank you for that I am sick of our government. And all this arguing over REpublican or Democrat...BOTH of them are only concerned for their own selfish wants! :x Time for a woman to take over, I bet you then we will have totally eliminated the deficit, end hunger in our country, possibly the world and probably bring world peace!! LOL!!!!! :lol:

 

[Curiosity]

Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Proud American

Good Idea - as long as it isn't Hillary.

 

[Proud American]

Re: Chavez: World faces choice between U.S. hegemony or surv

Proud American

Good Idea - as long as it isn't Hillary.

AGREED!!! :lol: