Calvinism: the rational Christianity
- Thread starter Niflmir
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Why would god create a creature whose every thought and action it already knew? What would be the point? Why create heaven and hell when you already know who will end up where? This is such a silly notion that only a human could have thought it up. There is no logic in belief. As Freud said, you either know something because it is logical or you don't. Belief is illogical because it is based on something you can have no way of proving by any means. Giving god human traits only proves Mark Twain's assumption that men created god in their own image.
I suppose one could argue that God created humanity for the same reason we create works of art. After all, I know exactly what my creations are going to do (ok not always, because some of my "creations" contain bugs), and they certainly don't think. Yet, we still have the need to create these static things. A related question might be why, if we knew that we would throw the painting in the garbage (hell) why would we bother painting it?
Leaving God out of the equation, if somebody did find a way to view the future, this would disprove freewill?
And if there is free will, there is absolutely nobody who can claim any psychic abilities?
Interesting concept. Not sure I have an anwer.
Why create an entire Universe and then put one static being on one insignificant spec of dust in some obscure part of it? What you are saying gives god human characteristics. It is beyond arrogant to think that we, as finite beings, can begin to fathom the infinite. We are nothing more than the Who that Horton hears. In our arrogance we have become a parody of ourselves. I'm not saying that a creator doesn't exist, but the one being discussed is illogical.
We are not separate from nature therefore we cannot be separate from god. Can the stomach which supposedly has no will of its own overcome the will of the dieter? God wants us to use god given free will to deny free will?
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If one can view the future, then an argument could be made that there is no free will, since the future is known, and the ability to make decisions that change the future is eliminated.
God handed Job over to the Devil. His Free Will and beliefs carried him thru the turmoil. Some will see this as God and the Devil playing with a man. I do not.
Book of Job - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Job. The Holy Bible: King James Version. Bartleby.com
Although Calvinism is a legitimate denomination because it affirms the essential doctrines (denominations exist because of disputes over minor, less important issues) unconditional election is false because it contradicts the bible and defies logic. Unconditional election would say that God is the one who solely chooses who is saved and who is not. However, there are too many places in scripture that show that man must play a part in his salvation. Peter preached on Pentecost that those present must "save themselves". (Acts 2:40) Further, the Lord said that only those who "do" the will of the Father will see the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21) The bible teaches that we are going to be judged by our "works" on the last day. (2 Corinthians 5:10, John 12:48, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) If this unconditional election were true, there would not need to be a judgment, for God has already decided.
Further, God said that it's his will that not one person should perish. (Matthew 18:14) He didn't say that is was his will that some be saved and some perish. Then why do some people go to hell? Simple. Because we have complete free will. God said that he sets before life or death, blessing or curse. Then he gives you an inside tip, CHOOSE life because it's better than death. (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Further, if God solely decided who would be saved and who would perish when he was planning creation, then why did he say that he knocks on the doors of the hearts of men? (Revelation 3:20) What would be the point of trying to woo people to him if he already decided who would be saved and who would perish?
Finally, this doctrine makes God unjust because he would be condemning some having never given them a chance to serve him, even if they desired to do so; and even forcing his will upon people by saving them when they may not want to be saved in the first place.
Ultimately, I think your approach is wrong. Read the bible and learn what the fundamentals are first, then choose a denomination. Even then you don't necessarily have to choose a denomination at all. There are many non-denominational churches around. They're the ones that usually have names like "New Life Christian Centre" or "Toronto Full Gospel Church" or "Christian Fellowship Centre".
By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. If I put a bowl of ice cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of a child, I know for a fact which one is chosen - the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict the child from making a free choice when the time comes. The child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon him or her when they make it.
Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God.
No matter what choice we freely make, it can be known by God, and his knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is his nature, to know all things. In fact, since he has eternally known what all our free choices will be, he has ordained history to come to the conclusion that he wishes INCLUDING AND INCORPORATING OUR CHOICES into His divine plan.
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What if you told the child that if he doesn't choose the cauliflower he'll fry in Hell for eternity?
How can one attempt a logical argument when starting out from an assumption that is a fallacy? The belief in the biblical God is an act of faith based on a lack of empirical evidence and a book that has been proven to be a plagiarization of more ancient writings. There can be no logic in your argument.
With billions on the planet what does God use to keep people straight, name tags?
How about people who have the same name and no relationship to each other?
I think we should have the right to the Heavenly Freedom of Information Act.
What if there are errors or omissions does this mean, St Peter is responsible?
Or is it God who is the ultimate authority on birth matters and death matters for
that matter?
I think organized religion is the problem, it has more to do with traditions than faith
and faith that disrupts creativity or individual thought is stunting the growth of
civilization. There is a difference between spiritualism and the confines of an
organized faith that demands specific beliefs to be a member. No I don't think any
organized faith has the answers in and of themselves.
How about people who have the same name and no relationship to each other?
I think we should have the right to the Heavenly Freedom of Information Act.
What if there are errors or omissions does this mean, St Peter is responsible?
Or is it God who is the ultimate authority on birth matters and death matters for
that matter?
I think organized religion is the problem, it has more to do with traditions than faith
and faith that disrupts creativity or individual thought is stunting the growth of
civilization. There is a difference between spiritualism and the confines of an
organized faith that demands specific beliefs to be a member. No I don't think any
organized faith has the answers in and of themselves.
