Calvinism: the rational Christianity

[Niflmir]

I always thought that the Calvinists drew Christianity to its logical conclusion: unconditional election.

The basic idea being, God who is omnipotent and omniscient created you. Now God knew before hand that He would create you, and knew before hand whether you would be sent to heaven or not. Therefore, salvation is God's and only God's choice: it has absolutely nothing to do with an individual's faith or merit.

To me, this was always the logical conclusion of an omnipotent and omniscient creator who also created a heaven and a hell.

 

[TenPenny]

There's a certain logic to that idea.

 

[Cliffy]

It would even make sense if the literal interpretation of the biblical god, heaven and hell existed.

 

[Niflmir]

I always thought it logical. But it certainly created lots of problems for the evangelists, who believed in the need to proclaim the goodness of God so that individuals could be saved and for the Catholics who believed that a person must confess to a priest (and presumably tithe) in order to achieve salvation. Indeed, it seemed to create problems for everyone except the Calvinists and I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Spade]

Jung on why people believe life is forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o&feature=related

My gawd, I am seeing double! Definitely gawd's intention.

 

[Goober]

I always thought that the Calvinists drew Christianity to its logical conclusion: unconditional election.

The basic idea being, God who is omnipotent and omniscient created you. Now God knew before hand that He would create you, and knew before hand whether you would be sent to heaven or not. Therefore, salvation is God's and only God's choice: it has absolutely nothing to do with an individual's faith or merit.

To me, this was always the logical conclusion of an omnipotent and omniscient creator who also created a heaven and a hell.

And others, many others would disgree -

 

[Spade]

My gawd, I`m seeing double. Definitely gawd`s intention.

 

[Goober]

My gawd, I`m seeing double. Definitely gawd`s intention.

Tad early to be sippin on that fine scotch eh.

 

[Spade]

There indeed is logic to it.
If gawd knew my future from the beginning, then there is no free will.
If gawd didn`t, she is not all knowing.
If she is not all knowing, she is not gawd.

 

[Goober]

There indeed is logic to it.
If gawd knew my future from the beginning, then there is no free will.
If gawd didn`t, she is not all knowing.
If she is not all knowing, she is not gawd.

But there is free will and God knows.

 

[TenPenny]

If there is free will, God can only know what has happened, not what will be in the future.

 

[Goober]

If there is free will, God can only know what has happened, not what will be in the future.

How can you arrive at that?

 

[TenPenny]

How can you arrive at that?

If there is free will, I am free to determine what happens next.
Since what happens next has not happened, and is under my control, God cannot know what will happen.

If God knows what will happen next, then it cannot be up to me to make a decision, therefore there could be no free will.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

If there is free will, I am free to determine what happens next.
Since what happens next has not happened, and is under my control, God cannot know what will happen.

If God knows what will happen next, then it cannot be up to me to make a decision, therefore there could be no free will.

Well, God's psycic abilities may be stronger than the average joe and may be aware of the free choice you have yet to make. It's only not free will if God tries to change the outcome.

 

[Goober]

If there is free will, I am free to determine what happens next.
Since what happens next has not happened, and is under my control, God cannot know what will happen.

If God knows what will happen next, then it cannot be up to me to make a decision, therefore there could be no free will.

How do you know that God does not know what decision you will make. God can also send signs to inform a person. That does not interfere with free will.

 

[TenPenny]

If God knows what is going to happen, then the future must be pre-ordained (even if God is psychic).

Therefore, free will is an illusion.

 

[Niflmir]

If there is free will, I am free to determine what happens next.
Since what happens next has not happened, and is under my control, God cannot know what will happen.

If God knows what will happen next, then it cannot be up to me to make a decision, therefore there could be no free will.

The apologetic reply to the problem of God's omniscience and free will is to point out that it is still free will if it what you wanted to do anyways. Of course that is a topic for a whole other thread, unless you really think Unconditional Election hinges on free will.

As I see it, all that matters for the purpose of Unconditional Election is God's Omniscience and creationism (the one aspect of omnipotence), since, knowing what you would do with free will (whether you have it or not) She could have chosen not to create you.

 

[Nuggler]

.......http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...sg=AFQjCNEYPmsLbRg-W8mW5ZNuKbQiAncffg&cad=rja


Some (above) would disagree. I spent years researching........(.well, a few minutes)...........this and find it is full to the brim of the same bul.............well, you read it.:lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

Gods will by definition is not appreciable or approachable by mans logic or a monkeys. The rule is ,"god moves in mysterious ways". That I think means understanding is exclusive of logic, as marriage is exclusive of screwdrivers. Only god knows if that makes sense.

 

[TenPenny]

The apologetic reply to the problem of God's omniscience and free will is to point out that it is still free will if it what you wanted to do anyways.

If what you 'wanted' to do was always what God wanted you to do, then it wouldn't be free will.