Attawapiskat in the news again...

[BornRuff]

And do not forget that the more you play social worker the worse the problem gets. Being lost in the 60's does not always mean a deference to alternate music.
Singling out and expanding upon the FEW that actually have mental health issues is rather racist non? Have you checked to see how many successful native spokespersons went to residential school? They are not all "elders" an often ridiculous word, which, in the real world of real natives usually means lucky, same as in any other color. It is simple to repeat the same stupid platitudes when there is no measuring stick in your society.
I and my family got access to a measuring stick by being led away from tribal BS. Too bad you were not there.

Real good idea! We need billions of Teepee poles. Helluva money making opportunity.

It is not just a few people. Rates of depression are double that of the population as a whole, and suicide rates are 5-7 times the national average. Literacy rates on reserves are significantly lower than the national average.

You have to either commit yourself to believing that there is some sort of genetic difference between the general population in Canada and first nations people that is causing this, or else accept that there are real problems in these communities that are leading to this.

 

[karrie]

It is not just a few people. Rates of depression are double that of the population as a whole, and suicide rates are 5-7 times the national average. Literacy rates on reserves are significantly lower than the national average.

You have to either commit yourself to believing that there is some sort of genetic difference between the general population in Canada and first nations people that is causing this, or else accept that there are real problems in these communities that are leading to this.

The problem isn't IN the communities, the problem IS the communities imo. Segregation is, in and of itself, a deteriorating force.

 

[BornRuff]

The problem isn't IN the communities, the problem IS the communities imo. Segregation is, in and of itself, a deteriorating force.

There is certainly a real debate over that. There are a lot of people who believe that the reserve system actively tries to segregate because some very valuable resources, like housing, are connected to living on the reserve. I also know many people who have successful careers off reserve but will return because they feel a strong connection to their home and their community.

Right now though, I think that it is tough to credibly make the argument that people can't get a good education and can't live a healthy life on a reserve without first providing them with at least the same level of resources that everyone off reserve is entitled to. It is wrong to condemn a system before we have ever made a good faith effort to make it work.

You also have to consider that providing this extra funding would be way less costly and much easier than trying to kick first nations people off of their land and make them assimilate.

 

[karrie]

There is certainly a real debate over that. There are a lot of people who believe that the reserve system actively tries to segregate because some very valuable resources, like housing, are connected to living on the reserve. I also know many people who have successful careers off reserve but will return because they feel a strong connection to their home and their community.

Right now though, I think that it is tough to credibly make the argument that people can't get a good education and can't live a healthy life on a reserve without first providing them with at least the same level of resources that everyone off reserve is entitled to. It is wrong to condemn a system before we have ever made a good faith effort to make it work.

You also have to consider that providing this extra funding would be way less costly and much easier than trying to kick first nations people off of their land and make them assimilate.

I have zero inclination to kick anyone off anything or make anyone do anything. Education is about the only driving force that can make any difference in anyone's lives, anywhere.... empowering people make their own decisions for a healthy life.

 

[lone wolf]

I do know of a few hard-done-by souls who watch "reality" TV, see all the "freebies", then get bitter because nobody does anything like that for them. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[Zipperfish]

Sensible would understand a fire can happen to an uppity bigot too.

As opposed to a biggoty uppit?

How are they intrinsically different than you or me? They certainly have different life experiences, but there is no genetic predisposition to these problems.

There seems to be a genetic predispostion towards alcoholism, due to lower levels of alcohol dehydrogenase than those of European descent. And to Type II diabetes. The fact is, politically incorrect as it is to say, we know so little about the human genome that your statement is not very testable.

 

[BornRuff]

There seems to be a genetic predispostion towards alcoholism, due to lower levels of alcohol dehydrogenase than those of European descent. And to Type II diabetes. The fact is, politically incorrect as it is to say, we know so little about the human genome that your statement is not very testable.

People of all different races are genetically predisposed to certain health conditions, but what we are talking about here is much broader than that. He is talking about things as broad as not everyone wanting to do his boat making course.

Weather or not their is actually a broad genetic predisposition to alcoholism within aboriginal people is not exactly cut and dry. Most people saying so are relying on studies that are many decades old.

The specific issue of alcohol dehydrogenase doesn't seem like it would really explain the full scope of the problem, because alcohol isn't even really the main problem on many reserves today. Many reserves have much larger issues with drugs, especially prescription drugs.

With type 2 diabetes, there is a genetic component to that as well, but it is by and large a public health issue, which a lot of these reserves struggle with.

 

[BruSan]

People of all different races are genetically predisposed to certain health conditions, but what we are talking about here is much broader than that. He is talking about things as broad as not everyone wanting to do his boat making course.

Weather???? or not their is actually a broad genetic predisposition to alcoholism within aboriginal people is not exactly cut and dry. Most people saying so are relying on studies that are many decades old.

The specific issue of alcohol dehydrogenase doesn't seem like it would really explain the full scope of the problem, because alcohol isn't even really the main problem on many reserves today. Many reserves have much larger issues with drugs, especially prescription drugs.

With type 2 diabetes, there is a genetic component to that as well, but it is by and large a public health issue, which a lot of these reserves struggle with.

I knew it wouldn't take long before you began taking my posts out of context and completely deriding them. Back to "me and you" again are we; instead of you and I?


Where did I refer to "everyone not wanting to do the government's offered shipwright course" of which the lapstrake boat was a project to complete and keep.


I believe my post discussed adequately enough for most on here to understand, "they", as in those who desired to, were given the opportunity to apply for the course after being apprised of it's requirements. Of those who did and were accepted, within a few weeks MOST disappeared back to their res's. the course was summarily defunded and terminated. A very few candidates found housing, remained to work in the area and completed their project with help of volunteer instructors.

Now, is this the haulmark of your particular method of reasoned discourse? Your accusatory and derisive nature probably hasn't served you well in the education field any better than you have accused mine of performing, eh?

I'll stand by my statements you refused to acknowledge before; they are encouraged to think of themselves as inferior by people such as yourself and also given the impression they're entitled to special treatment. In short you have honed your patronizing and superior attitudes towards them and we are witnessing it right here on this thread.

How am I doing so far? Should I complete my missive with one of your characteristic churlish LOL's to top it off?

I believe I tried tact and decorum with you by suggesting you and I would simply agree to disagree but I see you prefer the snipe and reposte of third party reference. I can play as long as I know the rules; game on.

 

[CDNBear]

BornRuff, you posted some very good posts in here, well done.

I can agree with this and would suggest to you that given those conditions when they are afforded the opportunity to acquire a usable knowledge base such as a skilled trade OFF the reserve; it would make sense for them to jump at the opportunity and commit, just as many of us did at the same age.

It would be nice if on rez schools had the same funding, so they could have trade courses like the off rez high school I started learning how to weld in.

The trades I did learn on rez a kid, like logging and construction, still serve me well today.

BTW: that thumbs up is correct, you nailed somethings on the head in that post, lol.

 

[BornRuff]

I knew it wouldn't take long before you began taking my posts out of context and completely deriding them. Back to "me and you" again are we; instead of you and I?


Where did I refer to "everyone not wanting to do the government's offered shipwright course" of which the lapstrake boat was a project to complete and keep.


I believe my post discussed adequately enough for most on here to understand, "they", as in those who desired to, were given the opportunity to apply for the course after being apprised of it's requirements. Of those who did and were accepted, within a few weeks MOST disappeared back to their res's. the course was summarily defunded and terminated. A very few candidates found housing, remained to work in the area and completed their project with help of volunteer instructors.

Now, is this the haulmark of your particular method of reasoned discourse? Your accusatory and derisive nature probably hasn't served you well in the education field any better than you have accused mine of performing, eh?

Lets go back to your original post

"I was once involved in a government program back in the early 60's teaching "them" how to build lapstrake workboats and would anyone care to guess how that worked out? After the first few weeks there they simply disappeared and we subsequenbtly found they had bought themselves train tickets back to the various reserves with their taxpayer provided living allowance.


Many attempts have been made over many decades to educate them in any number of skills based trades and virtually all attempts have ended the same way with lack of interest and commitment on their part. They'd rather not be faced with the same set of responsibilities associated with "our" cultural norms."

There is no mention in there of anyone finishing the course and you apply some very negative generalizations to and entire race of people. If you don't think they are genetically different, what would you think causes this?

I'll stand by my statements you refused to acknowledge before; they are encouraged to think of themselves as inferior by people such as yourself and also given the impression they're entitled to special treatment. In short you have honed your patronizing and superior attitudes towards them and we are witnessing it right here on this thread.

How am I doing so far? Should I complete my missive with one of your characteristic churlish LOL's to top it off?

I believe I tried tact and decorum with you by suggesting you and I would simply agree to disagree but I see you prefer the snipe and reposte of third party reference. I can play as long as I know the rules; game on.

Well, in my interaction with many people living on reserves, your observation that some of them view themselves as inferior seems pretty accurate. If you have ever seen the conditions that are allowed to persist on some reserves, it would be hard to imagine anyone living there not assuming that they are second class citizens. These conditions would not be tolerated anywhere else in Canada. If your kids are not given the same funding as other kids for their primary education, you are not allowed to own your own home, and you have to struggle to have control over land that was supposed to belong to your band, you might not feel like you are being treated equally either.

The things I am talking about here are not special treatment. They should at least get the same funding per student as kids who are educated off reserve. They should have access to similar health/mental health services that people off reserve have.

 

[BruSan]

You either refuse to interpret what I've written in a manner as intended or are just interested in argument for arguments sake.


I've told you what I believe is the reason behind "them" not committing or persevering as any other demographic would be required to do in any scholastic endeavour.


If "they" have any predispositions they are ones gained from generations of "them" being conditioned to acquire them and ALSO not have to deal with them in a responsible or effective manner because they've been infused with entitlement ethic.


The rest of your post regarding funding I cannot refute as I do not know how much reserves are allotted specifically for education nor do I know how much goes to frivolous or unethical uses. I can google and find out but I believe that would only confirm what we all know is not an uncommon practice.


You also neglected that particular part of one of my earlier posts and insist on pointing out they do not get enough regardless of how or where it is spent.


I will agree to one salient and irreconcilable point; what we have been doing for over a hundred years hasn't worked. The grand experiment of repeating the same mistakes over and over again while expecting different results seems futile to all but those in power. Throwing money at it hasn't helped in the past and won't tomorrow.

 

[BornRuff]

You either refuse to interpret what I've written in a manner as intended or are just interested in argument for arguments sake.


I've told you what I believe is the reason behind "them" not committing or persevering as any other demographic would be required to do in any scholastic endeavour.


If "they" have any predispositions they are ones gained from generations of "them" being conditioned to acquire them and ALSO not have to deal with them in a responsible or effective manner because they've been infused with entitlement ethic.


The rest of your post regarding funding I cannot refute as I do not know how much reserves are allotted specifically for education nor do I know how much goes to frivolous or unethical uses. I can google and find out but I believe that would only confirm what we all know is not an uncommon practice.


You also neglected that particular part of one of my earlier posts and insist on pointing out they do not get enough regardless of how or where it is spent.


I will agree to one salient and irreconcilable point; what we have been doing for over a hundred years hasn't worked. The grand experiment of repeating the same mistakes over and over again while expecting different results seems futile to all but those in power. Throwing money at it hasn't helped in the past and won't tomorrow.

Money has to be targeted in the right places.

There certainly is mismanagement and corruption on some reserves, but much of that can be rooted back to the same issues that I have mentioned. A good education system is essential for a democracy to function. If you are sick and have low literacy skills, you are not in a great position to effectively engage in the democratic process. This allows some people, both within and outside of the first nations community, more opportunity to take advantage of you.

If you improve the level of health and education on reserves, you will also improve the health and effectiveness of their democratic institutions.

I know you are probably going to say "how can we fund these programs if we know there is corruption and mismanagement". Well, for starters, that exists in all areas of government to some degree, so the mere existence of that can't be a reason not to fund these things.

Given the state of governance on reserves, it will be messier than in other places, but you have to ask yourself what you really care about most. Are you more worried about making sure that no money is misspent or that kids are provided with a quality education? These are not mutually exclusive issues, but there is always a certain emphasis, and that effects the overall result.

 

[lone wolf]

As opposed to a biggoty uppit?

;-) Only when the toppity turvitts have attit....

 

[skookumchuck]

Money has to be targeted in the right places.

There certainly is mismanagement and corruption on some reserves, but much of that can be rooted back to the same issues that I have mentioned. A good education system is essential for a democracy to function. If you are sick and have low literacy skills, you are not in a great position to effectively engage in the democratic process. This allows some people, both within and outside of the first nations community, more opportunity to take advantage of you.

If you improve the level of health and education on reserves, you will also improve the health and effectiveness of their democratic institutions.

I know you are probably going to say "how can we fund these programs if we know there is corruption and mismanagement". Well, for starters, that exists in all areas of government to some degree, so the mere existence of that can't be a reason not to fund these things.

Given the state of governance on reserves, it will be messier than in other places, but you have to ask yourself what you really care about most. Are you more worried about making sure that no money is misspent or that kids are provided with a quality education? These are not mutually exclusive issues, but there is always a certain emphasis, and that effects the overall result.

You sound just like some teachers i had back in the day, nothing could change their minds about the loveliness of the world and the endless state of our money. They are lucky that i was well enough raised not to kill them, you also.

 

[BornRuff]

You sound just like some teachers i had back in the day, nothing could change their minds about the loveliness of the world and the endless state of our money. They are lucky that i was well enough raised not to kill them, you also.

I would argue that the current state of affairs is a much larger waste of money.

A lot of money is being spent with little long term impact while they neglect what should be the most basic of services for any Canadian citizen.

The government is constantly embroiled in lawsuits fighting against aboriginal groups. Did you know that Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada spent 106 million dollars on legal fees last year? That is almost twice what the CRA spent going after tax evaders. And 106 million is actually a reduction from the 110 million they spent the year before. It almost seems like they are trying to oppress them so that it is easier to force development on their lands.

They need to put their money in the right places so that we can realize some long term improvements.

 

[petros]

A little hard atoskewin never hurt anybody.

 

[skookumchuck]

A little hard atoskewin never hurt anybody.

True but you do not really believe this crap do you?

"
The first facility of its kind in Saskatchewan, the Atoskewin Success Centre will provide access to social development, employment and training, and services to its member First Nations.
“Canada’s long-term prosperity depends on the labour market participation of all its citizens,” said the Honourable Candice Bergen, Minister of State (Social Development). “In partnership with Aboriginal organizations, industry and other stakeholders, the Government of Canada is helping Aboriginal people get the skills and training they need to secure meaningful employment.”
The Battlefords Agency Tribal Chiefs is building on recent success with its aggregated approach to income assistance delivery. In the past year, the Tribal Council reduced income assistance by 14% among four of its member communities and reduced its caseload by 225 clients.
In addition the Government of Canada is investing $241 million in new funding over four years to help young First Nation members to achieve their full potential through training and improved incentives for labour market participation. This new approach to income assistance improvements will focus on supporting approximately 14,000 First Nation individuals aged 18-24 to become employable. These investments will be targeted to First Nation youth receiving Income Assistance, providing them with access to a wider, more personalized range of training, education and career counseling programs that will help them get jobs.
The new approach will be implemented incrementally and is building on the last three years of successful pilot projects. Partnerships are being undertaken across Canada, where the Government of Canada has been working with willing First Nations, the provincial governments, and the private sector to link First Nations with training and jobs. Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada is currently working with First Nations, First Nation organizations and other interested parties on proposals to access these new investments.
The Battlefords Agency Tribal Chiefs, established and incorporated in 2007, is a tribal council based in North Battleford, Saskatchewan. The First Nations that comprise BATC are Ahtahkakoop, Moosomin, Red Pheasant, Sweetgrass, Stoney Knoll and Saulteaux. The Atosewin Success Centre is an aggregate of the following three departments: Industry Relations, Employment Training and Social Development. BATC is devoted to improving employment and education opportunities for surrounding First Nation communities through its networking and partnerships with governments and other agencies with similar goals."




The oldest trick in the book is making things look good or bad with BS fertilizer.

 

[petros]

You did some googling I see.

In BC where you live which doesn't have employment opportunities out yin yang like SK, I could see it being yet another failure but this ain't BC (basket case) brother.

 

[#juan]

Problem number two coming at you will be after you perform all of that infrastructure improvement you'll have to go back up there in a couple of years and do it all over again.


Other reserve experience would tell you they would rather tear out their walls to burn in stoves than stop drinking or glue sniffing to go cut firewood. Build a row of houses over the span of a couple of years of government paid (you and I) contractors going up there and you can bet your last penny that they'll be going back up in less than five years to start at the front of the row all over again.


One contractor I know personally told a story of an entire shipment of studs being flown in and left on skids intended for house building being chain-sawed into stove sized lengths. By the time the contractors arrived they had no lumber to use so got to sit on their hands on our dime until another few plane loads of studs could be shipped up at horrendous costs.


We pay for this crap over and over again with no responsibility being required on their part for their stupid behaviour.


Seem sensible to you?

I would imagine building a road in that country would be a very major undertaking. It would be all bridges and fill.. I wonder how long it took to build that runway. The most sensible thing would be to find another place to put the town.

 

[skookumchuck]

You did some googling I see.

In BC where you live which doesn't have employment opportunities out yin yang like SK, I could see it being yet another failure but this ain't BC (basket case) brother.

I know Sask and Manitoba very well. Guess which reserves i was guiding through various types of construction for Indian affairs? Perhaps there was more than one Metis doing that? Be careful about making observations there Einstein.
Don't even ask about the stupidity i ran into from my own people.