Attawapiskat in the news again...

[BornRuff]

All this talk about saw mills presupposes they'd actually want to run one doesn't it? Bothered to check into their desire to involve themselves in this "self sufficiency" experiment have you?


I was once involved in a government program back in the early 60's teaching "them" how to build lapstrake workboats and would anyone care to guess how that worked out? After the first few weeks there they simply disappeared and we subsequenbtly found they had bought themselves train tickets back to the various reserves with their taxpayer provided living allowance.

Many attempts have been made over many decades to educate them in any number of skills based trades and virtually all attempts have ended the same way with lack of interest and commitment on their part. They'd rather not be faced with the same set of responsibilities associated with "our" cultural norms

I think you are missing the main problem with this program. You took people away from their home for weeks to learn some obscure craft and you are surprised that they eventually wanted to go home?

The solution is not to try to foist some one size fits all skill on an entire race of people. What we need is to get education on reserves at least somewhat close to off reserve standards so that people have the tools to do whatever they want.

You are all forgetting they are paid to sit on their azz and do absolulety nothing. Git yer butts up to this crappy reserve and put your effort where your keyboard sits and tell them you're bringing in a job for every one of them and they'll tell you to your face in a Minnesota minute to take your job and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Everyone in Canada has the choice to get paid to do nothing.

The problem that we have had for so long is a bunch of terrible ideas being forced on these people and then people resenting them when they don't work. That has set us back a lot. Which leads to more people trying more half assed ideas and getting more resentful.

We need to go back to basics. There is no quick fix to this. We need to focus on healthy bodies, healthy minds, and the same high standard of education that every other Canadian citizen is provided with. It is a long term plan, but it is the only thing that will really lead to lasting results.

 

[JLM]

and the same high standard of education that every other Canadian citizen is provided with. It is a long term plan, but it is the only thing that will really lead to lasting results.

Education can take many forms. Most of the time it's perceived as being knowledge of the "3 Rs", but there's a lot more to it than that. Obviously some education in the "3 Rs" is necessary but mostly an education should be devised to match a person's interest in a career path. What is most important is that everyone be encouraged to do something constructive with their lives, not sitting on the couch watching the idiot box.

 

[BornRuff]

Education can take many forms. Most of the time it's perceived as being knowledge of the "3 Rs", but there's a lot more to it than that. Obviously some education in the "3 Rs" is necessary but mostly an education should be devised to match a person's interest in a career path. What is most important is that everyone be encouraged to do something constructive with their lives, not sitting on the couch watching the idiot box.

I don't know if everyone appreciates the dramatic educational gap between kids who go to school on reserve and those who go to school off reserve(I am talking about the remote northern ones like Attawapiskat since that is the area I have worked in).

I worked for an organization that provides literacy programs on remote fly in reserves. Most of the kids lived in the community year round, but some went to school in Thunder Bay and came back for the summer. There were kids who were in grade one who went to school in Thunder Bay who had better literacy skills than kids in grade 6 who went to school on the reserve.

So many of us take basic skills like literacy and numeracy for granted. We have a hard time viewing it as a skill that is taught to us because it is ingrained in us from a very young age. But the fact is that we do need good quality education to learn these skills and schools on these remote reserves are not equipped to provide this.

Without these skills, your options are severely limited. Trades, office jobs, even working at McDonalds, all require these skills.

Providing some very narrow skills training is not a replacement. People need the basics so that they can make their own path through life. That is the only sustainable solution.

 

[BruSan]

I think you are missing the main problem with this program. You took people away from their home for weeks to learn some obscure craft and you are surprised that they eventually wanted to go home?

The solution is not to try to foist some one size fits all skill on an entire race of people. What we need is to get education on reserves at least somewhat close to off reserve standards so that people have the tools to do whatever they want.



Everyone in Canada has the choice to get paid to do nothing.

The problem that we have had for so long is a bunch of terrible ideas being forced on these people and then people resenting them when they don't work. That has set us back a lot. Which leads to more people trying more half assed ideas and getting more resentful.

We need to go back to basics. There is no quick fix to this. We need to focus on healthy bodies, healthy minds, and the same high standard of education that every other Canadian citizen is provided with. It is a long term plan, but it is the only thing that will really lead to lasting results.

Have to reply to this: "I took people away from their homes." "I" did no such thing. Neither did the government. They applied for a program being told what was involved.


Here's another fallacious statement "obscure craft". Were you even born in the 60's, as I can assure you the building of the lapstrake boats of the type of which I speak were in demand and continued to be for at least another ten years and still is to some degree to this very day.


As I mentioned the trade of shipwright is a carryover trade to many other carpentry and cabinet making skills. In short; they could build their own damn houses and the cabinets to go in them had they stuck with it as some did.

I suggest you visit this site: www.woodenboat.com to give yourself and others on here an idea of how that "obscure craft" could have provided them with a very lucrative livelihood had they chosen to commit. Have you any idea how much a finely crafted wooden speedboat sells for today? You can only sell so many handcrafted totems; whereas.........!

You bleeding hearts are simply amazing in your ability to ascribe a whole different set of norms to aboriginals. "Taken from their homes" do you even think about what you write? Any number of tribes can count among their accomplishments being nomadic for generations. Their cultural norms before we came along were to have young men leave the family unit at a very early age to fend for themselves. WE are the ones who whipped that out of them.

Did you stop to consider any serving member of the military signing up, as in "applying", leaves his home at the same or younger age as these young men were asked to and are moved to the other side of the country in most cases. You baby the hell out of them then wonder why the next generation can't even think for themselves.

You then go on in your follow up post to describe that kids removed from the reserve to attend grade one in Thunder Bay are better prepared for further educational life than similarly aged children taught on the reserve ~ which is it? Are we treating them too harshly by expecting no more of them than we would (in my early1960's example) expect of our own late teens or should we uproot them at age 6 and send them to Thunder Bay?

I'm confused

 

[karrie]

After the first few weeks there they simply disappeared and we subsequenbtly found they had bought themselves train tickets back to the various reserves with their taxpayer provided living allowance.

.... they could build their own damn houses and the cabinets to go in them had they stuck with it as some did.
....



I'm confused

apparently.


Either 'they' left, or 'they' didn't. Which did 'they' do?

 

[BruSan]

apparently.


Either 'they' left, or 'they' didn't. Which did 'they' do?

I believe the word "some" should be plain enough for cognitive readers.

 

[karrie]

I believe the word "some" should be plain enough for cognitive readers.

funny how you only threw it in later, after you made it sound like all though.


Isn't the power of that simple word... 'THEY'... neat hey?

 

[BruSan]

funny how you only threw it in later, after you made it sound like all though.


Isn't the power of that simple word... 'THEY'... neat hey?

And you're very easily amused aren't you?

 

[BornRuff]

Have to reply to this: "I took people away from their homes." "I" did no such thing. Neither did the government. They applied for a program being told what was involved.


Here's another fallacious statement "obscure craft". Were you even born in the 60's, as I can assure you the building of the lapstrake boats of the type of which I speak were in demand and continued to be for at least another ten years and still is to some degree to this very day.


As I mentioned the trade of shipwright is a carryover trade to many other carpentry and cabinet making skills. In short; they could build their own damn houses and the cabinets to go in them had they stuck with it as some did.

I suggest you visit this site: www.woodenboat.com to give yourself and others on here an idea of how that "obscure craft" could have provided them with a very lucrative livelihood had they chosen to commit. Have you any idea how much a finely crafted wooden speedboat sells for today? You can only sell so many handcrafted totems; whereas.........!

You bleeding hearts are simply amazing in your ability to ascribe a whole different set of norms to aboriginals. "Taken from their homes" do you even think about what you write? Any number of tribes can count among their accomplishments being nomadic for generations. Their cultural norms before we came along were to have young men leave the family unit at a very early age to fend for themselves. WE are the ones who whipped that out of them.

Did you stop to consider any serving member of the military signing up, as in "applying", leaves his home at the same or younger age as these young men were asked to and are moved to the other side of the country in most cases. You baby the hell out of them then wonder why the next generation can't even think for themselves.

Lol, so before all of them left, now you are saying that some stayed?

Your problem is that you are refusing to view people are individuals.

Only a small portion of people in the general public join the military, and a much much smaller portion of people have ever been employed making lapstrake boats, but you are surprised that not every first nations person want to do those things?

If you run a vocational course of any kind with any population, you are going to have some people who realize that it is not for them and choose not to finish. Given your attitude towards first nations people, I would imagine that probably didn't help retain students either.

The fact is that the problem facing first nations people in Canada is not that they don't know how to make lapstrake boats. Teaching one token skill doesn't gloss over the more basic literacy and mental health problems that are all too common on reserves.

Until these basic issues are addressed, programs like the one you were involved with are going to have little success.

You then go on in your follow up post to describe that kids removed from the reserve to attend grade one in Thunder Bay are better prepared for further educational life than similarly aged children taught on the reserve ~ which is it? Are we treating them too harshly by expecting no more of them than we would (in my early1960's example) expect of our own late teens or should we uproot them at age 6 and send them to Thunder Bay?

I'm confused

These kids who went to school in Thunder Bay did so because their immediate family lived there. They came back to the reserve in the summer to stay with their grandparents or other family members.

One of the most basic problems facing children who go to school on reserve is that they are dramatically underfunded. They get about 2/3rds of the funding per kid as provincially funded schools(the res schools are federally funded). When you consider that it costs more to run a school in a remote location, and the schools are generally smaller(less economy of scale), the fact that they are also provided with less money really squeezes them. They end up with worse teachers and fewer resources compared to kids being educated in a provincially funded school, which is contributing to much worse results.

 

[BruSan]

Lol, so before all of them left, now you are saying that some stayed?


****The majority left, the program was defunded and terminated, those that remained either found work or were given housing with instructors who donated time.

Your problem is that you are refusing to view people are individuals.


****Aaah it's my problem that I refuse to view them as individuals when it is YOUR contention that as a group they be treated with different imperatives than any other group of individuals. I see.

Only a small portion of people in the general public join the military, and a much much smaller portion of people have ever been employed making lapstrake boats, but you are surprised that not every first nations person want to do those things?

****You've really zeroed in on the Lapstrake boat thing haven't you? Shipwrights have a varied and multi-facted skillset and you should refrain from attempting to categorize something as insignificant that you obviously know nothing about.

If you run a vocational course of any kind with any population, you are going to have some people who realize that it is not for them and choose not to finish. Given your attitude towards first nations people, I would imagine that probably didn't help retain students either.

****I have also explained I had not had the time based exposure to them to have developed any "attitude" towards them. That has come with time. I choose not to play the PC game with you and will take the bigot and racist lumps as they come, whatever floats your boat.

The fact is that the problem facing first nations people in Canada is not that they don't know how to make lapstrake boats. Teaching one token skill doesn't gloss over the more basic literacy and mental health problems that are all too common on reserves.


****As I've tried to explain over and over to you and others on here, we are talking about a program in the EARLY 1960's or have you chosen to completely ignore that over 50 year ago marker. That "token skill" of Shipwright has and continues to make a very good living for many people to this day. If you think this discussion is all about boat building rather than inducing responsibility and accountability then I guess we're really wasting our time with this to and fro, aren't we?


****Perhaps YOUR problem is you're an educational snob where everyone must be a degree holder. Perhaps it is you who is refusing to consider them as individuals when you decide to think of them completely different in every way from any other educational demographic profile. While we're waiting for your utopian "start-over" how many could have been learning a "token skillset" like marine mechanic, high pressure vessel welders, etc.,?

Until these basic issues are addressed, programs like the one you were involved with are going to have little success.

These kids who went to school in Thunder Bay did so because their immediate family lived there. They came back to the reserve in the summer to stay with their grandparents or other family members.

One of the most basic problems facing children who go to school on reserve is that they are dramatically underfunded. They get about 2/3rds of the funding per kid as provincially funded schools(the res schools are federally funded). When you consider that it costs more to run a school in a remote location, and the schools are generally smaller(less economy of scale), the fact that they are also provided with less money really squeezes them. They end up with worse teachers and fewer resources compared to kids being educated in a provincially funded school, which is contributing to much worse results.

I can agree with this and would suggest to you that given those conditions when they are afforded the opportunity to acquire a usable knowledge base such as a skilled trade OFF the reserve; it would make sense for them to jump at the opportunity and commit, just as many of us did at the same age. Or maybe you'll disagree again on the basis they're "special"?

 

[BornRuff]

I can agree with this and would suggest to you that given those conditions when they are afforded the opportunity to acquire a usable knowledge base such as a skilled trade OFF the reserve; it would make sense for them to jump at the opportunity and commit, just as many of us did at the same age. Or maybe you'll disagree again on the basis they're "special"?

Lol, again, lapstrake boat making does not replace basic literacy, numeracy, and mental health, which is a huge challenge for a lot of people from these communities because we simply do not have proper resources in their communities.

You are still refusing to view these people as individuals. If you offered people off reserves the chance to move away from home for weeks or months to learn lapstrake boat making, I am sure most of them would realize that it isn't for them and leave too. For Ontario colleges in general, where people are offered lots of choices of what to study, only about 60% of people actually complete their program. But because not everyone who entered your boat making course completed it you are judging their entire ethnic group?

First nations people are no different than me and you. It is simply that people living on these reserves are not being offered so many of the things that we take for granted elsewhere in Canada. They are not genetically lazy or whatever else you are suggesting. It is simply very hard to complete any sort of higher level education, from high school, to university, to trades school, without basic literacy and numeracy skills, and while struggling with mental health issues.

It is not a racial issue. In people of every ethnic group, the more you stack the odds against them, the more people fail.

Funding for university and vocational programs are great things, but they are going to continue to go to waste if we don't address the basics.

 

[karrie]

And you're very easily amused aren't you?

I guess if you lack an ability to comment beyond that singular word... yes, I am easily amused by your turn around from 'they left' to 'some stayed'. It is highly illustrative about the many other statements you've made in this thread about the things that 'they' do, and how realistic they might be.

 

[BruSan]

Lol, again, lapstrake boat making does not replace basic literacy, numeracy, and mental health, which is a huge challenge for a lot of people from these communities because we simply do not have proper resources in their communities.

You are still refusing to view these people as individuals. If you offered people off reserves the chance to move away from home for weeks or months to learn lapstrake boat making, I am sure most of them would realize that it isn't for them and leave too. For Ontario colleges in general, where people are offered lots of choices of what to study, only about 60% of people actually complete their program. But because not everyone who entered your boat making course completed it you are judging their entire ethnic group?

First nations people are no different than me and you. It is simply that people living on these reserves are not being offered so many of the things that we take for granted elsewhere in Canada. They are not genetically lazy or whatever else you are suggesting. It is simply very hard to complete any sort of higher level education, from high school, to university, to trades school, without basic literacy and numeracy skills, and while struggling with mental health issues.

It is not a racial issue. In people of every ethnic group, the more you stack the odds against them, the more people fail.

Funding for university and vocational programs are great things, but they are going to continue to go to waste if we don't address the basics.

You've really seized on that lapstrake boat making vs the Shipwright trade haven't you, however, "first nations people are no different than me and you" ? Well, I beg to differ, I cannot speak to your motivation but I can to mine and many others I've known.


The whole country, indeed perhaps even the world, is aware of their circumstance and universally agree reserve living and education afforded is not on par, they themselves are surely aware of this paradigm. Those that I've known among my peers, living in similar circumstances, would have, and did, pursue any alternate opportunity afforded them. Why don't they?


Once again it is you thinking of them as anything but individuals and treating them as a collective with cognitive impairments. I'm at least attributing values to them as merely young Canadians rather than young Canadians with special needs.Their requirements and abilities to attain a better life are no different than yours or mine ever were.


We will perhaps simply have to agree to disagree as I think they're being encouraged to think of themselves as inferior but nevertheless "entitled" and that is the single greatest debilitating issue they have.

I guess if you lack an ability to comment beyond that singular word... yes, I am easily amused by your turn around from 'they left' to 'some stayed'. It is highly illustrative about the many other statements you've made in this thread about the things that 'they' do, and how realistic they might be.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether it be my lack of "ability" or "disdain". You'll still be wrong.

 

[BornRuff]

You've really seized on that lapstrake boat making vs the Shipwright trade haven't you, however, "first nations people are no different than me and you" ? Well, I beg to differ, I cannot speak to your motivation but I can to mine and many others I've known.

How are they intrinsically different than you or me? They certainly have different life experiences, but there is no genetic predisposition to these problems.

The whole country, indeed perhaps even the world, is aware of their circumstance and universally agree reserve living and education afforded is not on par, they themselves are surely aware of this paradigm. Those that I've known among my peers, living in similar circumstances, would have, and did, pursue any alternate opportunity afforded them. Why don't they?

You don't live in those circumstances, right? So naturally the only peers you know who ever lived in those circumstances are going to be the ones who decided to leave.

The government signed treaties with these people committing to providing these services in these communities. People shouldn't now be forced to leave their homes to get anywhere near the Canadian standard level of these services.

Once again it is you thinking of them as anything but individuals and treating them as a collective with cognitive impairments. I'm at least attributing values to them as merely young Canadians rather than young Canadians with special needs.Their requirements and abilities to attain a better life are no different than yours or mine ever were.


We will perhaps simply have to agree to disagree as I think they're being encouraged to think of themselves as inferior but nevertheless "entitled" and that is the single greatest debilitating issue they have.

I never said anyone had a cognitive impairment. I specifically said they are no different than you and me. The differences lie on the "nurture" side of the equation, i.e. lack of educational resources and conditions that really foster mental health issues with few services to combat them. If you notice though, I have been very careful not to speak about people as individuals. These problems are very common on reserves, but obviously not everyone faces the same challenges.

There are tons of first nations people who are extremely successful when they are given all the opportunities that other people in Canada are given. I already mentioned the difference between kids who went to school in a provincially funded schools vs. a res schools. There are also lots of people who have managed to be successful despite going through the reserve school system, but the harder you make it on people, the fewer people will succeed.

Before you say this means we should just ship all kids off the reserves, I think it is pretty obvious that we should at very least try funding these schools at at least the same level as provincially funded schools. Isn't that a no brainer?

Overall, I see a lot of complaining from you, but absolutely no ideas for solutions.

 

[petros]

The high school on a rez that I recently attended a funeral at has one f*ck of a nice woodworking shop.

They use it to make modern tipi poles.

 

[karrie]

The high school on a rez that I recently attended a funeral at has one f*ck of a nice woodworking shop.

They use it to make modern tipi poles.

You're in the same area as a social worker I know who works largely on the reserves with youth. She has some pretty glowing and hopeful things to say about the trades programs.

 

[petros]

She'd be correct. By day the kids use the facilities and come evening the adults take pre-employment trades programs.

 

[BornRuff]

She'd be correct. By day the kids use the facilities and come evening the adults take pre-employment trades programs.

That is pretty awesome.

 

[skookumchuck]

Lol, again, lapstrake boat making does not replace basic literacy, numeracy, and mental health, which is a huge challenge for a lot of people from these communities because we simply do not have proper resources in their communities.

You are still refusing to view these people as individuals. If you offered people off reserves the chance to move away from home for weeks or months to learn lapstrake boat making, I am sure most of them would realize that it isn't for them and leave too. For Ontario colleges in general, where people are offered lots of choices of what to study, only about 60% of people actually complete their program. But because not everyone who entered your boat making course completed it you are judging their entire ethnic group?

First nations people are no different than me and you. It is simply that people living on these reserves are not being offered so many of the things that we take for granted elsewhere in Canada. They are not genetically lazy or whatever else you are suggesting. It is simply very hard to complete any sort of higher level education, from high school, to university, to trades school, without basic literacy and numeracy skills, and while struggling with mental health issues.

It is not a racial issue. In people of every ethnic group, the more you stack the odds against them, the more people fail.

Funding for university and vocational programs are great things, but they are going to continue to go to waste if we don't address the basics.

And do not forget that the more you play social worker the worse the problem gets. Being lost in the 60's does not always mean a deference to alternate music.
Singling out and expanding upon the FEW that actually have mental health issues is rather racist non? Have you checked to see how many successful native spokespersons went to residential school? They are not all "elders" an often ridiculous word, which, in the real world of real natives usually means lucky, same as in any other color. It is simple to repeat the same stupid platitudes when there is no measuring stick in your society.
I and my family got access to a measuring stick by being led away from tribal BS. Too bad you were not there.

The high school on a rez that I recently attended a funeral at has one f*ck of a nice woodworking shop.

They use it to make modern tipi poles.

Real good idea! We need billions of Teepee poles. Helluva money making opportunity.

 

[petros]

Teepee? Is that like a wigwam? All this confusion is making me two tents.