Are you looking for proof that God exists?

[petros]

Obviously not, if there's no god. What we see is the result of the workings of impersonal forces, there's no design to it. I'd have made us better people, and I'd have arranged the universe so that more of it is habitable for us. I didn't say no logic, it's just that we're predominantly magical thinkers and tend to attribute agency to things that don't have it, and we're so focused on pattern recognition, and so good at it, that we see patterns even where there aren't any. There are two types of error we can make here: failing to perceive a pattern that's real, and perceiving a pattern that's not real. We rarely make the first, and often make the second.

Right. Once you shake off a personified god that does card tricks. Because I believe in God I believe in magic?


How did man's piss poor recognition of patterns create the magic of mathematics that you are relying on as your proof of no God?

 

[darkbeaver]

Darwin was an idiot.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/kerry-warns-israel-boycott-around-the-corner.html




Behold The Face of God

Auroras in Abisko National Park February 1st, 2014

from Lights Over Lapland Plus 1 day ago / via Final Cut Pro Not Yet Rated

Powerful Auroras dancing over Abisko National Park On February 1st, 2014.

If you would like to experience the magic of the aurora borealis in person please visit lightsoverlapland.com and book your place on one of our aurora expeditions while we still have spaces available.
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Where will you be when the solar maximum arrives?
Copyright 2014 all rights reserved.








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[Dexter Sinister]

"Ta dah! Here I am, feast your eyes upon me! I know it is too good to be true but here I am!"

"Let the bells ring out and the banners fly!" Fan of the old Bugs Bunny classic cartoons?

You're right though, anybody showing up in my kitchen claiming to be Jesus or god better be able to demonstrate the claim pretty convincingly or I'll be calling for the guys in white coats. There's no evidence outside the Bible that Jesus even existed, no contemporary historian recorded anything about him. All we have in the extra-biblical historical record are a few rather testy complaints about his troublesome followers. The biblical records were composed several generations after Jesus' time by people who hadn't known him, they were simply recording, and probably embellishing, an oral tradition for assorted didactic and political purposes. It seems plausible that there was a charismatic, apocalyptic preacher in 1st century Palestine the tales are based on, and actually there are records of several such, but the miracle-working wonder man described in the NT is a fabrication.

 

[L Gilbert]

There's strong evidence that there is a higher power "pulling strings", as evidenced by all the bad scenarios in my life not turning out as bad as they could have been. Got to be thankful for that!

What evidence? lmao So because the earthquake in Japan only killed 16,000 people and injured or made disappear 9,000 people instead of killing 20,000 and injuring 10,000 it's evidence for the existence of your "higher power"?

So the cycle of life and death order and out of choas was a mistake made by God?

There's no such thing as chaos, there's only unpredictability. Everything behaves according to the laws of the universe. If we cannot predict some things, it's because we don't know all the laws nor the history of those things.

He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Methinks we need to get back to the topic. ...even if someone rises from the dead...even if the ark of Noah is found....even if Jesus sits across from you while you drink this morning's coffee.... we still won't see or listen. Really? If Jesus showed up in your kitchen this morning, would you not believe? Well, he did heal people of leprosy when he was here some 2000 years ago. He made the blind see. He turned water into wine. Yet, there were some that witnessed such and still did not believe. So, what is this thing called unbelief? So, maybe a different question is needed. Do you suppose if God appeared this day so that your five senses could grasp and confirm his presence, would you believe there is a God?

Whoever said that no-one would be convinced even if someone rises from the dead sure didn't know about the objectivity of science. I keep telling people that I form my conclusions based upon evidence. If, however unlikely, I ever come across some irrefutable evidence of the existence of gods n gremlins, then I will reassess my conclusions accordingly. So far, there's no irrefutable evidence, and the probabilities suggest against their existences.
Those "miracles" were described by people without a background in analytical science, people tend to exaggerate things, and those tales have been told over and over. Witness evidence is very iffy anyway. So when I say irrefutable evidence, I don't mean testimony from people ignorant in the ways of handling evidence.

 

[darkbeaver]

Because evolution has made us magical thinkers, not logical thinkers, and predisposed us to preferentially make certain kinds of errors, particularly seeing patterns that aren't real, because they have survival value. Is that movement in the tall grass just the wind, or a predator? Safer to assume the latter and be wrong. Skepticism is not a natural way for humans to think, it's a learned skill and takes practice. And regarding your first point, I would simply say that the number of people who believe something to be true has nothing to do with whether or not it's actually true.

What is the natural way of thinking?

There's no such thing as chaos, there's only unpredictability. Everything behaves according to the laws of the universe. If we cannot predict some things, it's because we don't know all the laws nor the history of those things.

Prediction in an infinite universe is impossible by definition ain't it?

 

[B00Mer]

Jesus vs Mohammad..

Of course Jesus defeats the devil..

 

[L Gilbert]

Prediction in an infinite universe is impossible by definition ain't it?

That's pretty much what I said.

 

[darkbeaver]

That's pretty much what I said.

Not exactly, or I wouldn't have introduced the doubt. Now these laws that we do know, where do they come from?

 

[MHz]

Better as in being able to follow directions to the letter?

That is part of the deal before we are allowed to enter the new earth. That place just happens to be the current universe as the beings that are there now will have migrated to their reward, the new heaven.

Isa:65:21-24:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

The 'talents' men will have in that place will include moving mountains of rock and trees by vocal commands. Healing any flesh that men have dominion over will be a talent every-person will have just as none have that talent today. That is the 'sign' that somebody has been sent by God. (anything less needs to be examined for errors).

Holy Angels don't come back from the meeting they attend in the verse below.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The perfected men have all been alive for the 1,000 year reign on earth and in the New Earth they will reside inside the walls of New Jerusalem and the ones that make their homes outside the City will migrate to all the worlds that were created.

Isa:65:19:
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;

Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

Isa:49:9:
That thou mayest say to the prisoners,
Go forth; to them that are in darkness,
Shew yourselves.
They shall feed in the ways,
and their pastures shall be in all high places.
Isa:49:10:
They shall not hunger nor thirst;
neither shall the heat nor sun smite them:
for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them,
even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Even Angels in the lake don't have it all that bad in that they have immortality but now they can feel hunger and thirst and the rest of the things that separated angels from men. (think of this earth for the last 4,000 years, nothing ever followed 'the plan'.)

 

[Cliffy]

"Let the bells ring out and the banners fly!" Fan of the old Bugs Bunny classic cartoons?

I grew up on Bugs Bunny. They made a whole lot more sense to a child than the bible stories.

You're right though, anybody showing up in my kitchen claiming to be Jesus or god better be able to demonstrate the claim pretty convincingly or I'll be calling for the guys in white coats.

Loonie bins are full of Jesus and god wannabes. There was guy, back in the 60s, just outside Montreal who went into a shopping mall dressed like Jesus and took some cigarettes without paying. When the owner called security to ask him to pay, he whipped out a sword and tried to hack the security guard with it saying he was Jesus and didn't have to pay for no damn cigarettes. They put a bullet in his head. He didn't rise from the dead three days later, either.

Better as in being able to follow directions to the letter?

That is part of the deal before we are allowed to enter the new earth. That place just happens to be the current universe as the beings that are there now will have migrated to their reward, the new heaven.

The instructions were written in Greek and translated by a Japanese fellow using a Google translator. Only someone who is self possessed thinks they know how to obey those orders.

 

[L Gilbert]

Not exactly, or I wouldn't have introduced the doubt. Now these laws that we do know, where do they come from?

Researchers and mathematicians translate what is discovered about the universe into languages we can understand. Everything comes from the universe which is indifferent and does not have human traits.

 

[MHz]

I grew up on Bugs Bunny. They made a whole lot more sense to a child than the bible stories.

In that case god just entered your building

[Extrait] The Secret Of Nimh - Owl scene - YouTube

Part 1 of 5 The secret of nimh part 1 - YouTube

 

[JLM]

I think "proof" is a level of acceptance to the individual, I've seen things that lead me to believe the possibility of a higher power, I guess one would be the physical composition of the human being, someone/thing superior to man obviously made the template.

 

[darkbeaver]

Researchers and mathematicians translate what is discovered about the universe into languages we can understand. Everything comes from the universe which is indifferent and does not have human traits.

Early researchers scratched observations onto rocks in languages we could understand. If the universe does not have human traits then where did you humans get these human traits? Is a rock indifferent to the rock it sits beside? I don't think so.

 

[L Gilbert]

Proof: "evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement"
Evidence: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
Fact: "a thing that is known or proved to be true"
Truth: "the quality or state of being true"
True: "in accordance with fact or reality"
All from Oxford's dictionary.
Facts are irrefutable, demonstrable, and testable. Truth can be fact or relative. Evidence is composed of facts that lead to a logical and reasonable conclusion.

Early researchers scratched observations onto rocks in languages we could understand. If the universe does not have human traits then where did you humans get these human traits?

They are built in by evolutionary effects upon our DNA.

Is a rock indifferent to the rock it sits beside? I don't think so.

Quit thinking then.

I think "proof" is a level of acceptance to the individual, I've seen things that lead me to believe the possibility of a higher power, I guess one would be the physical composition of the human being, someone/thing superior to man obviously made the template.

If you consider ( and quite rightly, IMO) that the universe is superior to humans. Proposing that the universe has human emotions and traits such as the Bible describes its god has, is ridiculous.

 

[darkbeaver]

Proof: "evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement"
Evidence: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
Fact: "a thing that is known or proved to be true"
Truth: "the quality or state of being true"
True: "in accordance with fact or reality"
All from Oxford's dictionary.
Facts are irrefutable, demonstrable, and testable. Truth can be fact or relative. Evidence is composed of facts that lead to a logical and reasonable conclusion.

They are built in by evolutionary effects upon our DNA. Quit thinking then.

Recently it's been proposed, again, that variations in earths magnetic field cause mutations instantly. There is no evidence that proves Darwin's theory. The world is heating up Les I can't depend on Darwin's nutty idea to grow me cooling fins can I ?

 

[JLM]

Proof: "evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement"
Evidence: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
Fact: "a thing that is known or proved to be true"
Truth: "the quality or state of being true"
True: "in accordance with fact or reality"
All from Oxford's dictionary.
Facts are irrefutable, demonstrable, and testable. Truth can be fact or relative. Evidence is composed of facts that lead to a logical and reasonable conclusion.

They are built in by evolutionary effects upon our DNA. Quit thinking then.

If you consider ( and quite rightly, IMO) that the universe is superior to humans. Proposing that the universe has human emotions and traits such as the Bible describes its god has, is ridiculous.

How would you explain the migration of fish and birds? How would you explain the construction of the Great Pyramid, Stonehenge?
Those thing just don't happen out of the blue!

 

[darkbeaver]

If you consider ( and quite rightly, IMO) that the universe is superior to humans. Proposing that the universe has human emotions and traits such as the Bible describes its god has, is ridiculous.

Well I'm following the scientific method here Les and I think you're being a little illogical in that the universe certainly has human emotions as well as lobster emotions and duck billed platypus emotions. The universe has everything, it is impossible for any human or sentient species to invent, build, find some thing or feeling or sense that isn't already in the universe, isn't it? So the universe is our superior and if we are sentient then so is it.

 

[L Gilbert]

Well I'm following the scientific method here Les and I think you're being a little illogical in that the universe certainly has human emotions as well as lobster emotions and duck billed platypus emotions. The universe has everything, it is impossible for any human or sentient species to invent, build, find some thing or feeling or sense that isn't already in the universe, isn't it? So the universe is our superior and if we are sentient then so is it.

Nope. Platypuses have platypus emotions. The universe is not a platypus. Do you have shyte emotions just because there is shyte inside you? Or do you have blood emotions just because there is blood inside you? My understanding of science and logic says, "no".

 

[Cliffy]

Various life forms are capable of emotions but all life forms have varying degrees of consciousness. I think the biosphere of Earth is one huge living organism that has consciousness - Earth consciousness. We are such a small part of that biosphere and our consciousness is incapable of fathoming the magnitude of that Earth consciousness, but we are a part of it,the same way the consciousness of a blood molecule is part of our consciousness. Do we really think we can fathom the magnitude of the Universe's consciousness? Some religious types think they can. Can you say delusional, children? (say that last sentence with Mr. Rodger's voice)