Any rational thoughts about taxes? ......

[Twin_Moose]

Ah, the word of God, AKA progshit.
What a thoughtful analysis!

A long article, Anna. It will take a while to digest. One immediate thought I have, is that anything that discourages Big Consumption would be a good thing for the planet.
In running my eye down the paragraphs I see another semantic issue to trip over - 'Flat tax' is mentioned but it doesn't seem to mean what I thought it would. I wonder how many different meanings people give it.
Is a progressive consumption tax what you would recommend/prefer, and with no other taxation? What about non-consuming services, or all those 'fees and levies'?

You do understand that Gst/Pst/Hst are a consumption tax don't you? What Walter was saying was a non refundable consumption tax on all goods and services. It would eliminate the need for Income tax, Payroll tax, Manufacturing tax, Carbon tax, gst/pst/hst, fuel excise tax, etc. This would be more fair to everyone, everyone would pay their fair share, and stimulate the economy at the same time. Better budgeting, and more spending because you would know your financial status instantly without worrying about your Income tax implications, in a complicated formula, are.

 

[Walter]

You do understand that Gst/Pst/Hst are a consumption tax don't you? What Walter was saying was a non refundable consumption tax on all goods and services. It would eliminate the need for Income tax, Payroll tax, Manufacturing tax, Carbon tax, gst/pst/hst, fuel excise tax, etc. This would be more fair to everyone, everyone would pay their fair share, and stimulate the economy at the same time. Better budgeting, and more spending because you would know your financial status instantly without worrying about your Income tax implications, in a complicated formula, are.

Very good. A consumption tax is the only fair tax.

 

[spilledthebeer]

You do understand that Gst/Pst/Hst are a consumption tax don't you? What Walter was saying was a non refundable consumption tax on all goods and services. It would eliminate the need for Income tax, Payroll tax, Manufacturing tax, Carbon tax, gst/pst/hst, fuel excise tax, etc. This would be more fair to everyone, everyone would pay their fair share, and stimulate the economy at the same time. Better budgeting, and more spending because you would know your financial status instantly without worrying about your Income tax implications, in a complicated formula, are.

Ah yes - the question about taxes that LIE-berals LOVE TO LIE ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Obviously we need some taxes so there will be fire trucks available..............................


and cops and jails and a legal system...................................


and we need clean drinking water and some sensible place for the contents of our flushed toilet to be disposed of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BUT THE DEVIL IS IN THE LIE-beral DETAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Can a society survive if its LIE-beral govt DRIVES IT INTO BANKRUPTCY????????????????????


Our idiot Boy and his loser LIE-berals are drifting PERILOUSLY CLOSE to our Cdn debt wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Our credit is MAXED OUT and we are going to be FORCED to start paying our way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cdn LIE-berals have seized on their carbon tax SCAM as a way of grabbing the gravy they need to BUY VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But the number of votes they NEED is MUCH LARGER than the current supply of gravy -and this spells DISASTER for LIE-berals!!!!


The current chaos in Venezuela PROVES that LIE-beral Socialism IS A DISASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Venezuela is merely the LATEST VICTIM of LIE-beral Socialist madness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Before Venezuelan dictator Maduro - there was the Argentine economic MESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Socialism got SO OUT OF CONTROL there that some striking auto worker union HOGS got angry that Fiat would not roll over and



give them the gravy they demanded and as Naomi Klein notes in her book "Shock Doctrine"..............................


the union HIRED HIT MEN AND MURDERED half a dozen Fiat execs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


IN ORDER TO SPEED ALONG the negotiations with the surviving execs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


To the eternal amazement of the HOGS - Fiat DID NOT offer any pay raises!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Instead - Fiat PACKED UP and went back to Italy and abandoned Argentina entirely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is the GREAT LIE-beral DEVIL IN THE DETAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THE WORLD - to satisfy gravy grabbing LIE-berals............................


or their civil service union HOG ALLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


All 4 levels of Cdn govt are LOCKED in this debate regarding HOW MUCH GRAVY our HOGS should be getting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


While at the same time the mass of ordinary Cdns FIGHT BACK against LIE-berals determined to bankrupt us...............................


just so long as LIE-berals can cling to power at ANY PRICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And our HOGS ARE SLOWLY LOSING THE DEBATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[taxslave]

I just found an interesting article in a news feed from the town I grew up near. Seems they have a flat rate property tax as well as a value rated tax but are in the process of all but eliminating the flat tax. The reasoning, which does not have unanimous council approval is that somehow a flat tax is not fair to homes with a lower value. No idea how they came to that outlandish conclusion since all homes require essentially the same municipal services.

 

[spilledthebeer]

I just found an interesting article in a news feed from the town I grew up near. Seems they have a flat rate property tax as well as a value rated tax but are in the process of all but eliminating the flat tax. The reasoning, which does not have unanimous council approval is that somehow a flat tax is not fair to homes with a lower value. No idea how they came to that outlandish conclusion since all homes require essentially the same municipal services.

Oh POOR TAX FOOL YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where I live - taxes and govt charges for things like water and sewers ........................


are calculated on LOT FRONTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A smaller house on a narrower lot requires LESS snow plowing..............................


than a large house on a WIDE LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Same deal for servicing the water and sewer pipes that cross the lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Same thing for road paving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The LARGER/WIDER LOT requires MORE WORK and thus MORE COST to service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Or you could listen to rural home owners in Ontari-owe GROWL at the cost of getting govt to supply electricity to their more isolated locations!!!!


Greater distance equals MORE WIRE and more poles and MORE COST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But then LIE-berals USUALLY LOVE this kind of debate as they can then whine "that the rich should pay more"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And then LIE-berals quietly do their DIRTY back room deals to let the rich - meaning civil service union HOGS ..........................


OFF THE HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals SEEK TO DISTRACT by whining about corporate CEO`s.....................................


but CEO`s ARE WILDLY OUT NUMBERED by civil service union HOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And of course the CEO MUST PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS to satisfy stock owners.............................................



OR THE CEO WILL BE FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On the other hand - the typical HOG drifts along relatively without a care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The classic example of this is Stan Kabel.......................................


the drunken alcoholic BUFFOON who did his job in the Walkerton Water Dept SO BADLY..............................


that he KILLED SEVEN PEOPLE AND PERMANENTLY DAMAGED THE KIDNEYS OF 100 MORE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stupid Stan Kabel is no longer with the water dept........................................


he is NOW AT ANOTHER NICE HOG JOB.................................


INSTALLING STOP LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[petros]

Who will pay for that ?

Pension plans that own 84% of the stock market.

 

[Twin_Moose]

I just found an interesting article in a news feed from the town I grew up near. Seems they have a flat rate property tax as well as a value rated tax but are in the process of all but eliminating the flat tax. The reasoning, which does not have unanimous council approval is that somehow a flat tax is not fair to homes with a lower value. No idea how they came to that outlandish conclusion since all homes require essentially the same municipal services.

Same argument they have against a flat or consumption tax, that somehow the lower income would be Unproportionately targeted to pay more than their fair share.

 

[Walter]

Pension plans that own 84% of the stock market.

Don’t touch my phucking pension assets.

 

[pgs]

Not my problem. Give her a tax receipt and she can deduct the outrageous price from income tax.

But it is our job to support struggling artists who take time from their busy schedule to campaign . How else can we get the correct sort of people in office . SARC

 

[Dixie Cup]

When it comes to taxes, I suspect there isn't one clear solution. Someone will always be unhappy at whatever tax method is used. But for me, the key question (that has been raised here) is what is considered to be a "fair" tax and who is going to determine what that "fairness" is.


The Liberals (and other politicians as well) have a policy of "buying" votes by giving financial benefits to those who least deserve it and for benefits we really can't afford to give. Trying to reverse some of those benefits will be difficult and result in a lot of screaming and crying about how government is so mean and the rich have to "pay more" etc. Problem is that there are only so many rich and they have options most of us don't - they can leave and go wherever they want and take their money with them.


Continuing to provide such benefits will bankrupt the country. Course, they'll just print more money but then things get more expensive (inflation) and the demand for more money from government will only escalate and so on and so on. A vicious circle.


So, whether it's a flat tax, a consumption tax or a progressive tax, it really doesn't matter - there's only one pocket it comes out of and that's ours - each and every one of us pay and will continually pay the increased costs associated with whatever the government(s) decide to spend it on because they know how to spend our money better than we do. (Ya, right!)

 

[Cliffy]

Consumption tax!? You want them to tax cancer? WTF?

 

[VIBC]

Consumption tax!? You want them to tax cancer? WTF?

No Cliffy, 'Consumption' is TB.

 

[Twin_Moose]

Consumption tax!? You want them to tax cancer? WTF?

No Cliffy, 'Consumption' is TB.

If there is a premium or a personal cost to you to get treatment? Then yes

Is there not a gst/pst/hst tax on it already?

 

[petros]

This reminds of of the "wage and price control" gobbledygook of the late 70s/early 80s.

 

[spilledthebeer]

Pension plans that own 84% of the stock market.

Apparently you are UNAWARE that 97 percent of all defined benefit pension plans...................


meaning the ones YOU CLAIM OWN THE STOCK MARKET...................................


are RUNNING MASSIVE DEFICITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And they are IN GRAVE DANGER OF GOING BANKRUPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


UNless of course LIE-berals can find a new source of gravy to dump into those pension plans ....................


MUCH FASTER THAN THEY EVER HAVE BEFORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Apparently you are unaware of the LIE-beral effort to HIDE the OVER ONE TRILLION DOLLARS...................................


worth of LIE-beral pension IOU`s that were issued to our civil service union HOGS in exchange for their votes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


We did not have the money when LIE-berals made the promises.....................................


and we have EVEN LESS MONEY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Of those defined benefit pension plans - virtually ALL the beneficiaries ARE CIVIL SERVICE UNION HOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The remainder of those who are signed onto defined benefit plans are people such as former General Motors workers.....................



who have seen TWO DEVALUATIONS of their benefits - in order to keep what remains of their pension plan reasonabley solvent!!!!!!!


Or the laid off Sears workers who found out that their pension plan had been mostly eaten up by DEBT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Same nasty problem of debt eating other plans for groups like Nortel and etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the situation is getting WORSE - NOT BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Several years back here in Ontari-owe - Wynne-bag LIE-berals passed NEW LEGISLATION letting many corporations OFF the pension hook!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes- here in Ontari-owe a pension plan is now considered SOLVENT if it has enough cash to meet 85 percent..........................


of its expected fiscal obligations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LIE-berals TRULY LOVE that buy now and pay later bait and switch crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



In other news - I know of a company that had a defined benefit plan - and the new company owner switched his white collar workers



over to an allegedly "better" plan that would give a higher rate of interest..............................


but the general manager was AN IDIOT and he left some key paper work laying around..........................


where it was found and read and discovered to be the FULL DETAILS of the new pension plan ........................


that was ACTUALLY OFFERING ONLY PROFIT SHARING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There WAS NO ACTUAL PENSION AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yes - new the boss TOOK AWAY an honest but modest pension plan and replaced it with one that would.............................


provide much higher returns IF the company made a profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


With the boss making plans to syphon off any interest generated by employee contributions - to HELP HIS BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



And this DID NOT make worker morale improve.............................


because there were ALREADY BITTER DISPUTES going on regarding STUPID CHOICES made by the general manager!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is the ugly future of pension plans in Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the years ahead there are going to be A WHOLE LOT OF retired PEOPLE receiving their first pension cheque and asking:::::::::


"WHERE THE FCUK IS THE REST OF IT"????????????????????????????????????????


Welcome to our bankrupt LIE-beral mandated future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[taxslave]

Oh POOR TAX FOOL YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where I live - taxes and govt charges for things like water and sewers ........................


are calculated on LOT FRONTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A smaller house on a narrower lot requires LESS snow plowing..............................


than a large house on a WIDE LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same deal for servicing the water and sewer pipes that cross the lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same thing for road paving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The LARGER/WIDER LOT requires MORE WORK and thus MORE COST to service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or you could listen to rural home owners in Ontari-owe GROWL at the cost of getting govt to supply electricity to their more isolated locations!!!!
Greater distance equals MORE WIRE and more poles and MORE COST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But then LIE-berals USUALLY LOVE this kind of debate as they can then whine "that the rich should pay more"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And then LIE-berals quietly do their DIRTY back room deals to let the rich - meaning civil service union HOGS ..........................
OFF THE HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LIE-berals SEEK TO DISTRACT by whining about corporate CEO`s.....................................
but CEO`s ARE WILDLY OUT NUMBERED by civil service union HOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And of course the CEO MUST PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS to satisfy stock owners.............................................
OR THE CEO WILL BE FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the other hand - the typical HOG drifts along relatively without a care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The classic example of this is Stan Kabel.......................................
the drunken alcoholic BUFFOON who did his job in the Walkerton Water Dept SO BADLY..............................
that he KILLED SEVEN PEOPLE AND PERMANENTLY DAMAGED THE KIDNEYS OF 100 MORE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stupid Stan Kabel is no longer with the water dept........................................
he is NOW AT ANOTHER NICE HOG JOB.................................
INSTALLING STOP LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep the once every three years the street needs plowing costs so much more to go 50 ft instead of 40 ft. Pipes are put in once every 50 or so years. The cost per shit for processing doesn't change from one lot to the other. And then in your idiotic zeal you miss the one major point that lot size isn't directly related to house value.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Let us try for some rational ideas.

Already had one. Tax corporations.

See, I never said this would mean people aren't paying taxes. You assumed that, and assumed that my goal was to relieve individuals of paying taxes. It wasn't.

But you don't know that because you don't ask, you don't listen, and you don't learn. You just make a snap assumption and carry on as if that's what I actually said.

Too bad. I have a well-thought-out, multipronged rationale for raising revenues by taxing corporations, including why it's actually good for corporations. But you're never going to hear it, because you have concluded that my only rationale is some idiotic lefty "tax corporations, not people" bullshit. And as we have seen many, many times, once you jump to a hasty conclusion, you never, ever reconsider it.

 

[taxslave]

Already had one. Tax corporations.
See, I never said this would mean people aren't paying taxes. You assumed that, and assumed that my goal was to relieve individuals of paying taxes. It wasn't.
But you don't know that because you don't ask, you don't listen, and you don't learn. You just make a snap assumption and carry on as if that's what I actually said.
Too bad. I have a well-thought-out, multipronged rationale for raising revenues by taxing corporations, including why it's actually good for corporations. But you're never going to hear it, because you have concluded that my only rationale is some idiotic lefty "tax corporations, not people" bullshit. And as we have seen many, many times, once you jump to a hasty conclusion, you never, ever reconsider it.

Nope. The tax the corporations thing has been discussed to death. Somehow the cost always ends up in the retail price. If you have a new approach lay it out. I would be much interested in a system that taxes exports and not affect the average citizen.

 

[AnnaEmber]

A long article, Anna. It will take a while to digest. One immediate thought I have, is that anything that discourages Big Consumption would be a good thing for the planet.

In running my eye down the paragraphs I see another semantic issue to trip over - 'Flat tax' is mentioned but it doesn't seem to mean what I thought it would. I wonder how many different meanings people give it.

Is a progressive consumption tax what you would recommend/prefer, and with no other taxation? What about non-consuming services, or all those 'fees and levies'?

I think a tax on consumption of goods and services would be the ticket, similar to GST.

 

[AnnaEmber]

Progressive consumption tax. https://www.forbes.com/sites/leonard.../#42dab9fa7c64

Haha, indigestion triumphs! Sorry but there's too much there that I don't have the patience (or intellect?) to follow. Makes tax theory look even more complex than I already imagined.

Shrugs. You can't figure it out, so no-one else can?