Anti_Islam protests victory for extremists?

[mentalfloss]

Until you add in, not hate, not anger, not a problem with Mosques -

Add in the US average Joe Blows attitude towards certain areas in the Country where momentous, life and country changing events occurred. Then the equation changes. Until you can understand that perspective you only understand part of why there is an uproar by average citizens -
And I am not referring to the Glen Beck, Nazi's under every bed syndrome, but the average working person.

As I stated before and will again.

Just because you have a right does not necessarily make it the right thing to do.

Can you see that as a legitimate point?

What you've said here is that the country has changed, and average people are upset - and that somehow constitutes a legitimate point for not bringing the mosque into fruition. A number of posters here have already shown that simply having sympathy for those that are ignorant (which is the 'average' person in America regarding this issue) is not a good enough reason to sacrifice a constitutional right. If you can show that having sympathy for the ignorant is worth sacrificing a constitutional right, then you will actually have a legitimate point.

For my part, being an atheist/agnostic, even I don't believe that those in religious factions should be stripped of their right to practice. And if innocent muslims should be stripped of their right, then one could stand to reason that innocent christians and jews should also be stripped of this constitutional right. I highly doubt you would agree with that premise, unless you somehow enjoy living a double standard.

 

[TenPenny]

I'm not surprised at how easily a majority of people can be manipulated by hate propaganda.

I'm not surprised at how completely and willfully some people miss the point.

 

[Tonington]

Despite the outrage, no one disagrees that there is a right to build the mosque.

No one?

50% of GOP Thinks Muslims Have “No Right” To a Mosque | FrumForum

 

[Goober]

What you've said here is that the country has changed, and average people are upset - and that somehow constitutes a legitimate point for not bringing the mosque into fruition. A number of posters here have already shown that simply having sympathy for those that are ignorant (which is the 'average' person in America regarding this issue) is not a good enough reason to sacrifice a constitutional right. If you can show that having sympathy for the ignorant is worth sacrificing a constitutional right, then you will actually have a legitimate point.

For my part, being an atheist/agnostic, even I don't believe that those in religious factions should be stripped of their right to practice. And if innocent muslims should be stripped of their right, then one could stand to reason that innocent christians and jews should also be stripped of this constitutional right. I highly doubt you would agree with that premise, unless you somehow enjoy living a double standard.

No I do not live a double standard - and you consider that the average Us Citizen is ignorant - Quite an achievement on your part to analyze this -
As I mentioned before the Us Joe blow and Jane Blows consider certain areas to be almost sacred - To build a Mosque of such stature so close to an atrocity is an affront to the average person sense of - yes we know it is their right but is it the right place and time to do it.
Yet you take it to the constitutional level - Which i cannot disagree with.

But my opinion is i believe well stated, clear, concise and in my average opinion it is the right decision to not build the mosques there.

I see it as a deliberate provocation. And even you must admit that there are people on both sides of this issue that love to create division between cultures, religions, people.

But I lay the blame for this at the feet of the Imam that began this project - as a deliberate provocation. It benefits no one and has harmed many.

As to the Imam he cannot condemn what the average US Joe Blow sees as terror orgs that have killed US Citizens and Soldiers,. Hamas and Hezbollah - So his purpose it to create what we see today, more intolerance, more of the " it is my Right" and he is correct on that point -

But like they say - You reap what you sow and this harvest will be bitterness, hate and more intolerance - why - because they ( Some Muslims) cannot repsect some things that are deeply ingrained in the average US Citizen. That in itself shows a clear and complete disrespect for culture and history of the country many of them came to. Everyone loses becasue of this. You know that as well as I.

And please do not lecture me on Individual Rights. I think I have a decent idea of what Rights are and are not.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Until you add in, not hate, not anger, not a problem with Mosques -

Add in the US average Joe Blows attitude towards certain areas in the Country where momentous, life and country changing events occurred. Then the equation changes. Until you can understand that perspective you only understand part of why there is an uproar by average citizens -
And I am not referring to the Glen Beck, Nazi's under every bed syndrome, but the average working person.

As I stated before and will again.

Just because you have a right does not necessarily make it the right thing to do.

Can you see that as a legitimate point?

I agree with you on this point. Yes...the "right" to build this Mosque or
Community Centre or what have you....should exist without question.

The exercising of that "right" at that place at this time may not be in the
best interests of sensitivity in building bridges between cultures. The
Moslem community pushing for this construction as an exercise in
their "rights" though might be construed as expecting others to be
sensitive to their concerns....without being sensitive to the concerns of
those they expect to be concerned with their sensitivities. Does that
make any sense?

So YES, this right should exist without question....& YES, this will drive
a further wedge between cultures that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone
if this construction goes ahead on that site at this time. Catch 22. Oh well.

 

[mentalfloss]

No I do not live a double standard - and you consider that the average Us Citizen is ignorant - Quite an achievement on your part to analyze this -

I definitely specified that there is some ignorance specifically towards this issue. Quite a sizeable amount of people - as Tonington has posted - think there is no actual constitutional right to build there. Whether you fall in that camp or not, it definitely qualifies as ignorant.

Now, of course there is also the issue of the sample size and whether or not a statistic is veritable, but these surveys are fairly representative of the nation as a whole.

Could it be that the remaining amount are like yourself? That they realize there is a constitutional right, yet still have some personal opinion? Of course it can.

But if it's an opinion without justification then leave it at that. However, you're tying your opinion with some form of fiction as follows..

But I lay the blame for this at the feet of the Imam that began this project - as a deliberate provocation. It benefits no one and has harmed many.

Okay. If that's how you see it, that's fine. But I can't take your opinion seriously, if the foundation for that opinion is based on some sort of fictional, deliberate provocation. It's just not a credible opinion.

 

[Just the Facts]

Maybe those of you who support making Muslims second class American citizens can explain why these people should help the US government rather than the enemies of the US government?

Ironic that you would go ahead and stereotype all Muslims in defense of not stereotyping all Muslims. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but not ALL Muslims support building this mega-mosque. The truly moderate Muslims who are honest about it recognize what this mosque represents, and they realize it's a bad idea.

Keep trying, but I'm sure you're finding we're not as easily manipulated as you thought we would be.

No one?

50% of GOP Thinks Muslims Have “No Right” To a Mosque | FrumForum

Thanks. The really interesting part of that poll is that 41% of Dems don't think the mosque should be built, while only 28% support it and the rest don't know.

Them are ammendment enabling numbers. :smile:

 

[Tonington]

Thanks. The really interesting part of that poll is that 41% of Dems don't think the mosque should be built, while only 28% support it and the rest don't know.

Them are ammendment enabling numbers. :smile:

Yup. And one step closer to repeating history.

 

[Goober]

I definitely specified that there is some ignorance specifically towards this issue. Quite a sizeable amount of people - as Tonington has posted - think there is no actual constitutional right to build there. Whether you fall in that camp or not, it definitely qualifies as ignorant.

Now, of course there is also the issue of the sample size and whether or not a statistic is veritable, but these surveys are fairly representative of the nation as a whole.

Could it be that the remaining amount are like yourself? That they realize there is a constitutional right, yet still have some personal opinion? Of course it can.

But if it's an opinion without justification then leave it at that. However, you're tying your opinion with some form of fiction as follows..



Okay. If that's how you see it, that's fine. But I can't take your opinion seriously, if the foundation for that opinion is based on some sort of fictional, deliberate provocation. It's just not a credible opinion.

If you belive it is not deliberate - then you are the one that believes in fiction - We see what this particular Iman stands for - You choose to ignore it. I choose not to.

As Ron stated in the previous post I would agree with his post -

 

[mentalfloss]

Thanks. The really interesting part of that poll is that 41% of Dems don't think the mosque should be built, while only 28% support it and the rest don't know.

Yup. It's pretty unfortunate.

 

[Just the Facts]

Yup. It's pretty unfortunate.

And telling.

 

[DaSleeper]

Legal right versus common decency:
The houses in my neighbourhood are all about 60years old.
Ever since the houses were built, my next door neighbour and the one one door over were sharing a common driveway, and for 50 years everything went fine.
Ten years ago a real nice:roll: guy buys the house next to mine in the fall and I knew there was gonna be trouble because his wife is always in the window when I clean the driveway to make sure I don't blow snow in her yard:lol:
In the spring he builds a fence between his house and the other house next door because he has the right to in fact givin himself a smaller driveway and not enough room for the neighbour to have one at all, or barely enought to drive a mini without scratching the paint so that neighbour built a short one in front of his house..Nice guy Huh?
Something like that Imam buiding a mosque to promote good will ....Rrright:roll:
Spring was early that year And instead of bringning in my trailer just two weeks before leaving for my summer trek It was in my driveway for a month and half the 30 feet effectively blocking his view to the street on that side from his picture window.
He left for Sudbury six months later, guess he couldn't take having made so many friends:lol::lol:

 

[Tonington]

Something like that Imam buiding a mosque to promote good will ....Rrright:roll:

Except the Imam isn't building a wall around his community center, and reached out to other leaders in the faith community. :roll:

It wasn't until the rhetoric machine ramped up that people actually cared about this, and in fact some of those now vocal against the Mosque had in the past acclaimed the work of the Imam.

That's called jumping on a band wagon. It's the difference between journalism that is truth-seeking, and journalism that is power-seeking.

Certainly not the work of an honest broker.

 

[DaSleeper]

That Imam still ain't building bridges and no amount of rhetoric can get around that...:-(

 

[Goober]

Except the Imam isn't building a wall around his community center, and reached out to other leaders in the faith community. :roll:

It wasn't until the rhetoric machine ramped up that people actually cared about this, and in fact some of those now vocal against the Mosque had in the past acclaimed the work of the Imam.

That's called jumping on a band wagon. It's the difference between journalism that is truth-seeking, and journalism that is power-seeking.

Certainly not the work of an honest broker.

They report, create news, drive the story, jump at last reports to create fiction at times. - Journalism for the most part is DEAD -

And we all contributed

Yup. It's pretty unfortunate.

Question and it is on topic.

What is your opinion of Hamas and Hezbollah??

 

[Tonington]

That Imam still ain't building bridges and no amount of rhetoric can get around that...:-(

How would you know? He's currently touring Gulf Arab countries speaking out against radical extremists.
U.S. election skews NY Muslim centre debate - imams | Reuters

One end of the bridges is Islam...

 

[Just the Facts]

Punishing these people for the events of 9/11 is not only unjust, its also unwise. These people are our eyes and ears into the Muslim community.

Example:
Who do you think translates Arabic intelligence?
Those of you who are against this Mosque are really against Muslims having the same rights and freedoms as everyone else and are effectively against the Americans who would most likely fill these jobs:

Maybe those of you who support making Muslims second class American citizens can explain why these people should help the US government rather than the enemies of the US government? How do you think Muslims feel when they see thousands of fellow Americans protesting against their religious rights and freedoms or listen to the hate propaganda spewing from the mouths of so many right wing pundits and politicians? How would the American government denying these citizens their rights result in them being more loyal to the American government?

I was going to respond to this earlier but then decided against it because, well, I'm just plain feeling lazy tonight. :smile: But in my cyber travels this evening I came across this article that makes the point I was going to make exactly, but much more eloquently than I could ever hope to.

And, btw, I understand there over half a million Christian Iraqi's who were driven from their country under threat of death who are perfectly fluent in Arabic. ;-)

Anyway, an excellent article here:

What's the point? Did he really ask that? How about this for a point: Muslims should not support Al-Qaeda because of human decency. Because of respect for human life. Because of the importance of human rights. Because the "radicals" are perpetrating great evil, murdering innocent people and working for the subjugation of women and non-Muslims, and the extinguishing of the freedom of speech and the freedom of conscience. And apparently all that is just fine with Muqtedar Khan, if you make him angry.

"Moderate Muslims" threaten to turn "radical" if they get angry - Jihad Watch

 

[Spade]

There have been cases of American Mosques being training grounds to recruit your men to fight.

Not my men. I'm not Moslem.

 

[Tonington]

Your article makes the same leap you do, JTF. In it's one sided view, it says that none are saying Muslims should be second class citizens, despite what the polls indicate. Those same polls they drop like so many names when it's convenient to say that most people believe as they do. By the way that's called Argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy where popular stances are used as proof of truth.

 

[Just the Facts]

Your article makes the same leap you do, JTF. In it's one sided view, it says that none are saying Muslims should be second class citizens, despite what the polls indicate. Those same polls they drop like so many names when it's convenient to say that most people believe as they do. By the way that's called Argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy where popular stances are used as proof of truth.

32% of people believe there is not a constitional right to build anything you want anywhere you want is equated to 32% of people believe Muslims should be second class citizens. Who's making a leap again?

Edit: Either way, go ahead and edit the response to say 32% of American believe Muslims should be second class citizens if you want. It doesn't change the point of the article.