Anti-vaccine movement endangers West Coast

[The Old Medic]

To the person who claims that a study shows that children die within 3 days of receiving the vaccine. This is NOT a real study at all, it was never published in any real medical journal, and it is totally and completely fake. It was written as a letter, from a NON_PHYSICIAN.

I am so sick of these fanatics faking science. They make things up, quote articles that simply do not exist, and manipulate and twist the few that actually do.

The reality is, around the world, millions of children have, and still do, die of measles, rubella, chicken pox, pertussis, etc. Nothing you can claim, or the fact that YOU did not die from them, changes that simple fact.

 

[AnnaG]

lol... those charts remind me of the Global Warming debate, where they show graphs from the start of the industrial revolution compared to pollution/CO2..... sure it looks like it's sky-rocketing, but if you look further back using ice core data, you'd see the much bigger picture not being shown.

The above clearly shows the level of contraction of the listed illnesses were already on a heavy declined long before a vaccine for those illnesses were introduced and even at that stage of introduction, the drop in cases began to slow down and level out.... thus appearing to make the decline worse then if the vaccine never was introduced in the first place.

The key is always hygiene...... keep your home clean, keep your body clean, don't lick the seats at the bus stop and you'll do just fine without most, if not all, vaccines.

Hey if people want to keep injecting themselves and their children with this crap out of fear mongering and paranoia, thus risking some serious side effects or an illness hitting you even harder because that illness is already in your system from the vaccine (Most vaccines use either a dormant or partially dormant version of the virus/illness it's meant to protect against) ~ Knock yourself out..... fill yer boots.

Keep your children away from the dirt and other kids, constantly bath them in anti-biotic gels and creams so there's no bacteria whatsoever that touches their skins or get into their bodies..... never give your children's immune system a chance to develop on its own and become strong..... wrap them up in some big plastic bubble to protect them from the evils of the world.

I'll just be sitting here, wallowing in my own mud pit, eating peanut butter sandwiches, rubbing weeds and pollen all over my muddy body, drinking large glasses of milk and letting hornets and bees take turns stinging the crap out of me..... all the while I have someone who's got a severe case of the flu stir my mud pit.

Sorry, but I'll take my chances with Nature over some clown with a needle any day.

In the meantime, there are folks who refuse vaccinations running around endangering kids before the kids have a chance to develop immunities or get vaccines. How very noble.

 

[petros]

I've had mumps, measles and chicken pox. I'm not dead. (even after immunizations)

 

[AnnaG]

I've had mumps, measles and chicken pox. I'm not dead. (even after immunizations)

lol Good point. I had my shots and am not dead or autistic.

 

[petros]

lol Good point. I had my shots and am not dead or autistic.

What was the formulation of shots in our time and what are they today?

In the past 100 years 75,000 new chemicals compounds have been manufactured by man.

If you are baffled why the rates of autism in the young and dementia in the old are rising then start reading about what you eat and lather over yourself to futilely try to offset old age.

 

[Praxius]

Did you die from the pox or measles, though?

Let me check....

How do you know that the shots did not prevent you from dying of the diseases? How do you know the shots didn't give your immune system the edge it needed to fight off the diseases?

Before my first post in this thread, I already knew this argument would be made. This type of argument always reminded me of the religious debate.

If your loved one survives a tragic accident or incident, it's God's will..... if they died a horrible death, well that was part of God's plan.

In either case, God somehow takes credit..... in relation to this topic, you're trying to argue that the vaccine in some way did what it was supposed to do, based on no evidence whatsoever.

You say that because I already got the vaccine as a child, it reduced the impact of the actual illness when I contracted it..... yet I can equally argue that because I got the vaccine, it opened the door for me contracting the illness in the first place or was the direct infection that caused my illness in the first place and the reason why I survived was due to my already existing and strong immune system.

Since neither can be argued as absolute, the point is moot on either side, thus moving on.

Just because a child gets a disease and doesn't die from it, does not mean the disease can't kill either.

Never said it couldn't...... but does that mean because something may have a chance, perhaps even a remote chance of causing death in some extreme cases.... suddenly everybody should be put at risk for even greater side effects and illnesses from a vaccine..... just to give the illusion that we're somehow protecting these very remote cases from remote chances of death?

Reminds me of the Bike Helmet laws..... because of a couple of kids who weren't responsible enough or taught properly how to ride and operate a bike safely, got hit by a car or fell of their bikes in such a way that gave them brain damage or died..... suddenly now everybody in society has to weak bike helmets. But then again, there's no real possibility of any major side effects from wearing a helmet, besides looking like an idiot, so there's some level of justification for the law.

But pressuring or even forcing people to get a vaccine regardless of their own personal health conditions and risks, just to satisfy some people's hangups on the "Possibility" of one poor little child dying from contracting an illness..... is just as ludicrous as forcing someone not to have peanuts in their lunch due to the remote possibility of someone allergic smelling it and dying.

I already got freaks telling me where and when I can smoke, telling me what drugs I am allowed to use or not, telling me what sort of protective gear I need to wear when I go mountain biking, telling me what I can eat or not eat where because of someone else's problems..... and of course, now we have people trying to tell me what I should inject into my own body so they can have their own peace of mind.

Let's face the facts shall we?

You, Karrie and a few others in here don't give two sh*ts what happens to me or how my body reacts to the side effects of these vaccines, which I know first hand, isn't pleasant and at times I do feel like I'm dying....... you guys only care about yourselves and perhaps your children if you have them, or perhaps worry about some imaginary child that doesn't exist that may or may not come into contact with me.... thus you'd rather me put myself at risk, rather then put your own children and yourself at risk just for the sake of you being safe.

So in turn, why in sweet hell should I give two sh*ts back at what happens to you or your families?

You guys want to get vaccines, all the power to you, I won't stop you..... protect yourself and your loved ones..... I will do the same, as I have no obligation to protect you, your family or abide to your personal hangups.

 

[Praxius]

In the meantime, there are folks who refuse vaccinations running around endangering kids before the kids have a chance to develop immunities or get vaccines. How very noble.

Honestly, what makes you think I give a damn about those kids?

If those kids don't have a developed immune system, then why the hell are their parents taking them out in public in the first place??

 

[darkbeaver]

To the person who claims that a study shows that children die within 3 days of receiving the vaccine. This is NOT a real study at all, it was never published in any real medical journal, and it is totally and completely fake. It was written as a letter, from a NON_PHYSICIAN.

I am so sick of these fanatics faking science. They make things up, quote articles that simply do not exist, and manipulate and twist the few that actually do.

The reality is, around the world, millions of children have, and still do, die of measles, rubella, chicken pox, pertussis, etc. Nothing you can claim, or the fact that YOU did not die from them, changes that simple fact.

Hello Old Medic
Show us the real science, give us a link, until you do you're just another pusher of unproven remedies. In any case the facts are that addressing poverty (or will you argue it's not a killer) is far more expensive than a little shot of junk which earns the dealer billions on the backs of the sick and as the information provided indicates does not in any studied case result in suppression of outbreaks with out the hygene and nutrition angle being positively addressed. Are you just another professional skeptic reader or do you have links to studies that we may read?

 

[AnnaG]

What was the formulation of shots in our time and what are they today?

In the past 100 years 75,000 new chemicals compounds have been manufactured by man.

If you are baffled why the rates of autism in the young and dementia in the old are rising then start reading about what you eat and lather over yourself to futilely try to offset old age.

I haven't wondered about autism much, but I have wondered about the cause of the abysmal rise in asthma and other things.

 

[AnnaG]

Let me check....

lol I already checked me this morning.

Before my first post in this thread, I already knew this argument would be made. This type of argument always reminded me of the religious debate.

If your loved one survives a tragic accident or incident, it's God's will..... if they died a horrible death, well that was part of God's plan.

In either case, God somehow takes credit..... in relation to this topic, you're trying to argue that the vaccine in some way did what it was supposed to do, based on no evidence whatsoever.

Nope. I am simply wondering how you came to the conclusion that yours had no effect. Hence my questions.

You say that because I already got the vaccine as a child, it reduced the impact of the actual illness when I contracted it..... yet I can equally argue that because I got the vaccine, it opened the door for me contracting the illness in the first place or was the direct infection that caused my illness in the first place and the reason why I survived was due to my already existing and strong immune system.

That's not what I stated. In fact, it was a question I asked rather than a statement.

Since neither can be argued as absolute, the point is moot on either side, thus moving on.

Exactly. So why make statements you have no intention of supporting? Like I posted, "How do you know ...."?

Never said it couldn't...... but does that mean because something may have a chance, perhaps even a remote chance of causing death in some extreme cases.... suddenly everybody should be put at risk for even greater side effects and illnesses from a vaccine..... just to give the illusion that we're somehow protecting these very remote cases from remote chances of death?

If you don't want to be subjected to stuff that the rest of the public wants, change gov't or change public opinion.

Reminds me of the Bike Helmet laws..... because of a couple of kids who weren't responsible enough or taught properly how to ride and operate a bike safely, got hit by a car or fell of their bikes in such a way that gave them brain damage or died..... suddenly now everybody in society has to weak bike helmets. But then again, there's no real possibility of any major side effects from wearing a helmet, besides looking like an idiot, so there's some level of justification for the law.

How about that, huh? How many vaccines are there? How many are enforced by law for people to take?

But pressuring or even forcing people to get a vaccine regardless of their own personal health conditions and risks, just to satisfy some people's hangups on the "Possibility" of one poor little child dying from contracting an illness..... is just as ludicrous as forcing someone not to have peanuts in their lunch due to the remote possibility of someone allergic smelling it and dying.

Who forces people to avoid peanuts in their lunch?

I already got freaks telling me where and when I can smoke, telling me what drugs I am allowed to use or not, telling me what sort of protective gear I need to wear when I go mountain biking, telling me what I can eat or not eat where because of someone else's problems..... and of course, now we have people trying to tell me what I should inject into my own body so they can have their own peace of mind.

Some of those things you mention have an effect on other people. If you expect me not to object you blowing cigarette smoke at me, you have an enlightening coming.

Let's face the facts shall we?

Please do that.

You, Karrie and a few others in here don't give two sh*ts what happens to me or how my body reacts to the side effects of these vaccines, which I know first hand, isn't pleasant and at times I do feel like I'm dying....... you guys only care about yourselves and perhaps your children if you have them, or perhaps worry about some imaginary child that doesn't exist that may or may not come into contact with me.... thus you'd rather me put myself at risk, rather then put your own children and yourself at risk just for the sake of you being safe.

So now you make a statement as to what I care about or not? Do you have evidence as to what I care about or not?

So in turn, why in sweet hell should I give two sh*ts back at what happens to you or your families?

Fine. Care only about yourself. Don't expect many friends of good character.

You guys want to get vaccines, all the power to you, I won't stop you..... protect yourself and your loved ones..... I will do the same, as I have no obligation to protect you, your family or abide to your personal hangups.

But you want to reserve the right to endanger others? Nice guy.

 

[darkbeaver]

Ah, looks like another voice of reason has joined us. Glad to have you aboard, Old Medic.

No Dexter it's just your own comfortable reflection in the force in the force, an allie to bolster your own rickety foundation. You have nothing but faith that it may be reason. It may well be an delusion by way of a bit of underdone potatoe.:smile:

 

[VanIsle]

Local news for you then:
Authorities confirm 83 measles cases in B.C.

Thanks. The article states that the outbreak has moved on to Northern BC so it might be why I never heard about it. It also states this:

Although it looks like the measles outbreak will be done within a month, the centre is still concerned that some people in B.C., such as certain religious communities, refuse vaccinations.
I think most of us understand who that means and that would probably mean in every province in Canada.​

 

[karrie]

You, Karrie and a few others in here don't give two sh*ts what happens to me or how my body reacts to the side effects of these vaccines,....

Holy crap, over react much? I made one solitary statement regarding the reason people get up in arms about breakthroughs like this, why they take them seriously. I never said you should have to get it, or disregarded that you had an immune reaction to the shot Prax. I will walk away and go find someone who's not flying off the handle to converse with though and leave you to foam all over yourself rather than me.

 

[AnnaG]

Honestly, what makes you think I give a damn about those kids?

I assume most people give a hoot about life and other people. It's a natural thing because most people actually do give a hoot about other forms of life. Are you telling me that you don't?

If those kids don't have a developed immune system, then why the hell are their parents taking them out in public in the first place??

Parents may not let their kids roam around in public. However those parents may roam around in public, the people that visit those parents may roam around in public, the pets may wander around in public, 5the bugs that wander in and out of the house may be in public contact, etc. etc. etc. Get my drift?

 

[AnnaG]

Hello Old Medic
Show us the real science, give us a link, until you do you're just another pusher of unproven remedies. In any case the facts are that addressing poverty (or will you argue it's not a killer) is far more expensive than a little shot of junk which earns the dealer billions on the backs of the sick and as the information provided indicates does not in any studied case result in suppression of outbreaks with out the hygene and nutrition angle being positively addressed. Are you just another professional skeptic reader or do you have links to studies that we may read?

Why would he show you the real science? You have a habit of refusing evidence from science.

 

[AnnaG]

No Dexter it's just your own comfortable reflection in the force in the force, an allie to bolster your own rickety foundation. You have nothing but faith that it may be reason.

Well, a little faith couple with the evidence that science has discovered anyway. Which is countered by your faith that science is bilgewater.

It may well be an delusion by way of a bit of underdone potatoe.:icon_smile:

Or a nickelbag of pot a day?

 

[Praxius]

..... Nope. I am simply wondering how you came to the conclusion that yours had no effect. Hence my questions......

.... Exactly. So why make statements you have no intention of supporting? Like I posted, "How do you know ...."?

I know based on being inside my own body, knowing my own first hand experiences of what happened shortly after getting a shot and what has not occurred since the last time I got a shot. Each time I got a shot, within days after, I contracted the exact illness it was supposed to protect me from, or I contracted another illness shortly after being shot..... since the last incident, 15 years ago, where I got really sick for a week and was when I decided to never get another shot again, I have never once had any illness beyond the common cold or a mild visual headache from lack of sleep.

Did I go and take blood samples and provide my own scientific research to proof these connections?

No, but it's still more then what you have backing up your own assumptions in regards to my personal situation with vaccines.

If you don't want to be subjected to stuff that the rest of the public wants, change gov't or change public opinion.

I don't have to change anything, as it is not illegal for me to refuse getting vaccinated..... but if that does change and people try and make it law that we all need to get shots, then you can bet I'll either fight it to the bitter end, or leave the country.

Since I'm leaving the country anyways......

How about that, huh? How many vaccines are there? How many are enforced by law for people to take?

My example was towards bike helmets and the laws relating to them, which I said was a perfect example and there's some remote justification on making it law to wear helmets, since there are no known major side effects or health concerns if one wears one.

I never said vaccines were enforced by law...... yet.

Who forces people to avoid peanuts in their lunch?

Schools, some Universities and some Workplaces.

Some of those things you mention have an effect on other people. If you expect me not to object you blowing cigarette smoke at me, you have an enlightening coming.

As would you.

So now you make a statement as to what I care about or not? Do you have evidence as to what I care about or not?

Simple answer to your question: Why are you continually arguing against my own personal opinion and position on this matter and continually swaying justification of vaccines for everyone to take if your position isn't as I claim?

Your response is your answer.

In fact, how about I simplify it for you better..... every single one of your responses in this thread alone matches exactly to my previous comment about you and everyone else's selfish point of view, hypocritically finger pointing at the selfishness of those who don't get vaccines, while ignoring your own selfish point of view that everybody should be vaccinated for your own peace of mind, regardless if a child vaccinated ends up suffering from some serious illness like Autism...... to you, them suffering the rest of their lives with Autism is far better then the chance of them contracting chicken pox and the even more remote chance of them dying..... and them possibly risking the spread of the illness to others.

You don't give a crap about what happens to people who get vaccinated, their risks of Autism and other serious illnesses are isolated and remote to just them and them contracting one of these illnesses is acceptable to you, because they can't spread this illness to you. Based on all your previous arguments, you couldn't give two craps about me getting vaccinated, then again coming down with another serious sickness that keeps me in bed or even the hospital for a week or two, me missing out on work and my own personal life suffering because of it..... because your own self security (which somehow is my responsibility) is more important.

What makes you more important then anybody else to suggest or even dictate everybody should get vaccinated or else they're a risk to society?

That's what you're suggesting afterall.... go look back at your posts. If it wasn't directly you saying it, it was another member with you agreeing with them.

I already acknowledge that Vaccines are important and very effective for some people..... but for other people like myself, they cause many more problems then they solve and they are clearly not for everybody.

Which is why I have the position that individuals should choose for themselves what they do and what's best for them.... they should not be dictated, pressured by guilt or enforced by law to do one thing or the other.

Fine. Care only about yourself. Don't expect many friends of good character.

Do I sound like someone with a pile of friends to begin with or someone who really cares? :-?

But you want to reserve the right to endanger others? Nice guy.

And with your own mentality, you already reserved the right to endanger others.... the difference is that I'm aware of my position and I accept it..... you're still stuck in this Holier then Thou attitude that your position is some how more right, when it isn't.

But that comment above just proves exactly my point towards what you and a few others in here think..... in that you only think about yourselves and when someone doesn't abide by some procedure that will protect you at their own expense, then they're not "nice guys" because they're not considering your best interests.

You still never answered my question..... if you don't give a damn about other people's lives and health in regards to their known side effects to vaccines..... then why should those same people give a damn about you?

 

[Cliffy]

What with human over population and pollution of the environment from mindless consumerism, why bother with vaccines? We could use a few less parasites, no?

 

[Praxius]

Holy crap, over react much?

I haven't even begun.....

I made one solitary statement regarding the reason people get up in arms about breakthroughs like this, why they take them seriously. I never said you should have to get it, or disregarded that you had an immune reaction to the shot Prax. I will walk away and go find someone who's not flying off the handle to converse with though and leave you to foam all over yourself rather than me.

Really?

...... THIS is why people get up in arms about the breakthrough mini-epidemics, because if you do pass it on to others, it is often high risk groups like infants who haven't had a chance to get the shot yet, and run a higher mortality risk

So it's always the fault of the person who doesn't get vaccinated, regardless of the existing health risks that person faces just to protect some unknown/faceless person out there from their own health risks..... when those with those known health risks should use common sense and get shots themselves or stay away from public places until they do.

My entire argument towards why I don't get vaccinations was ignored by you just so you could selectively focus on one part of what I said to somehow further justify your own position while still trying to sound right...... when in reality, it's not right, it's selective-hypocrisy.

I acknowledge that some people have health issues in regards to contracting one or more of these illnesses, yet the onus of their own protection is on themselves or their parents to get the vaccine for them, or restrict how often they venture into public places..... there is no justification for me to purposely subject myself to further serious health risks like I did in the past on some off-chance those people may contract something from me..... I sacrificed my own health while getting a vaccine, when I never needed the vaccine in the first place...... Where are these people's sacrifice for me?

There isn't any...... so I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.... while all the preachers of morality sit on their hypocritical high horses, patting themselves on the back like they did something wonderful.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You have nothing but faith that it may be reason.

Like you'd know the difference.