2SLGBTQQIA+

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Fuck you, Pete. Fuck you.
If you weren't such a horrific fucking bigot I wouldn't ride you.

Did you know I hate "christians" too or you are just too fucked up to read people?

Did you know I have nothing against gays or lesbians or trans?

Just like the born agains who foghorn their religion, I dont care for INTRUSIVE gays, lesbians or trans who foghorn their sexuality. If you want the world to know, take out a fucking a ad.

But...think about this, if you want inclusivity you have to include those who you are opposed and they need to include you.

YOU ARE NO FUCKING DIFFERENT THAN THEY ARE!
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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I’ve tried to build bridges between LGBTQ and conservative circles where possible —  which can be difficult. Extremists on both sides call you either a fascist or a groomer.

But I’ve often found that using a classical liberal framework works well, which means championing an individualistic approach to rights and freedoms. Let people live their lives as they wish, unencumbered by external, particularly governmental, interference. Under that framework, common ground between LGBTQ people and conservatives isn’t hard to find.

For example, in the summer of 2021, Michelle Rempel Garner wrote a public letter advocating for the legalization of poppers — a recreational party drug often used by gay men. In a National Post opinion piece, I argued in defence of her letter. Why should the government interfere in the private lives of consenting adults using a substance comparable to alcohol? It’s government overreach. Readers responded well. The rest at the above link….
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Yep. You can use legalizing marijuana as a parallel. If a substance is not a substantial, immediate risk to life or health (and even if it is, in my opinion, but let's leave that aside for the moment), what business has the government that permits alcohol and cigarettes banning it?

Newsflash, gummint: Using poppers ain't what makes 'em gay. Might as well ban size-18 sequin gowns.
 

The_Foxer

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Aug 9, 2022
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I’ve tried to build bridges between LGBTQ and conservative circles where possible —  which can be difficult. Extremists on both sides call you either a fascist or a groomer.

But I’ve often found that using a classical liberal framework works well, which means championing an individualistic approach to rights and freedoms. Let people live their lives as they wish, unencumbered by external, particularly governmental, interference. Under that framework, common ground between LGBTQ people and conservatives isn’t hard to find.

For example, in the summer of 2021, Michelle Rempel Garner wrote a public letter advocating for the legalization of poppers — a recreational party drug often used by gay men. In a National Post opinion piece, I argued in defence of her letter. Why should the government interfere in the private lives of consenting adults using a substance comparable to alcohol? It’s government overreach. Readers responded well. The rest at the above link….
You really have to start putting quotes around things you quote. I thought that first bit was you talking till i happened to see it in the article. And i've noticed that quite a bit. Just put a couple of " "'s around stuff you quote so we know :)

Having said that i have advocated for gays in the conservative party many times and in fact one of the candidates who ran in vancouver that i worked on the campaign for was gay himself, married and everything. The writer is correct that the argument we were able to sell effectively is "gov't shouldn't be in the business of deciding who you sleep with" and "we don't need gov't to tell people how to run their lives. You don't have to approve of people being gay or gay marriage and they don't have to approve of you owning firearms - but we should all stand up for the idea that the gov't should let people do what they want as long as it's not infringing on the rights of others".

More or less. This was a big discussion within the party early on. As you may recall the original position of the CPC is that if it came to power it would call a vote on whether or not gay marriage should be allowed (or if it should be called something else etc). However it was generally accepted that we should let the gays be gays and that it wasn't worth making an issue about it any further and we should look for common ground.

When the cpc did come to power they instead held a vote on whether or not they should even be talking about this any more and it was soundly defeated even by the cpc, and the issue was never raised again.

Turns out that even amongst those conservatives who dislike gays or the use of 'marriage' to describe their permanent relationships (and those conservatives are in the minority), even for them their hatred of gov't interference in people's lives tends to be even greater and they'd rather see the gays treated fairly than see gov't regulation on what people can or can't do with their love lives.
 
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The_Foxer

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In recent Quebec Provincial elections a Conservative gay ran for the Premier seat.....

Did it get mentioned?
They barely mentioned that a black girl ran for leadership :) In fact The first time she ran all the media can talk about is how exciting it was that Kamala Harris in the US was a black girl that was getting involved in politics. There was Zero talk of how a black girl in Canada was running 4 leader of the conservative party.

There are a number of gays serving with the conservatives at the moment but you will never hear about it.
 

Serryah

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Dec 3, 2008
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I’ve tried to build bridges between LGBTQ and conservative circles where possible —  which can be difficult. Extremists on both sides call you either a fascist or a groomer.

But I’ve often found that using a classical liberal framework works well, which means championing an individualistic approach to rights and freedoms. Let people live their lives as they wish, unencumbered by external, particularly governmental, interference. Under that framework, common ground between LGBTQ people and conservatives isn’t hard to find.

For example, in the summer of 2021, Michelle Rempel Garner wrote a public letter advocating for the legalization of poppers — a recreational party drug often used by gay men. In a National Post opinion piece, I argued in defence of her letter. Why should the government interfere in the private lives of consenting adults using a substance comparable to alcohol? It’s government overreach. Readers responded well. The rest at the above link….

I'll agree to extremists on the 'left' side of the GLBTQIA+ issue.

Personally, I don't like Pride parades. I get the meaning behind them and all but, I just never really liked them.

Personally, I hate the EXTREME flamboyant, in your face "Accept that I'm Gay/Trans" types. IMO they're doing so much more damage to us as a community than anyone (save the extremes on the other side of course).

The problem is, these people are also the ones that keep the issue in the public face so it is talked about, so it is dealt with, and they're not shoved back into the closet. Its the "we're here" push to keep us valid. As much as they are a PITA and don't seem to help, in their way, they do, and the rest of us rational people work to tone things down to a 'discussion' level.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the solution is for the 'extreme' end of the GLBTQIA+ (and then there's the Wackadoo end, where Lesbians want to ban "men" for example and they're a whole other level of WTF)
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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They barely mentioned that a black girl ran for leadership :) In fact The first time she ran all the media can talk about is how exciting it was that Kamala Harris in the US was a black girl that was getting involved in politics. There was Zero talk of how a black girl in Canada was running 4 leader of the conservative party.

There are a number of gays serving with the conservatives at the moment but you will never hear about it.
It's show acceptance is easy and foghorning is pointless. Nobody gives a shit, shut up and live your life.
 

The_Foxer

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So do it. If you are in love, you deserve it. If someone disagrees let them, they have Rights to their opinions too but it won't impact the love you claim unless you want it to. Are people marrying just to spite others or is it for love?
This is indeed the most logical argument. Its' basically the same argument used with conservatives who had concerns about gay marrange. "Who cares, if it's not harming you then let them do what they want'.

Gays (and a certain poster here) should have the same attitude - who cares if they like me or gay marriage? I'll go get married if i want and they and their opinion isn't my problem.

IF both sides took that attitude we'd literally have nothing to talk about on the subject - it would just 'work'.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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I know a lot of married gay people are scared it won't, though I hope it does. Precedent doesn't mean anything anymore with this court so...
It goes beyond that. If the Extreme Court overturns Lawrence v. Texas, states will once again be able to make homosexual sex a crime.

And if they go after Loving v. Virginia, they can bring back laws forbidding interracial marriage.
 
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Serryah

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It goes beyond that. If the Extreme Court overturns Lawrence v. Texas, states will once again be able to make homosexual sex a crime.

And if they go after Loving v. Virginia, they can bring back laws forbidding interracial marriage.

That's what the fear is, yeah. The worst part is there are people GLAD for this possibility which just... does not compute. Other than these kinds of people are absolute fucking pieces of shit and shouldn't breed, but ya know :p
 

pgs

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It goes beyond that. If the Extreme Court overturns Lawrence v. Texas, states will once again be able to make homosexual sex a crime.

And if they go after Loving v. Virginia, they can bring back laws forbidding interracial marriage.
But why would they want to ?
 
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The_Foxer

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But why would they want to
Good question. Even better is how. Courts can't just set aside precedent regardless of what the freak out drama queens on the left say.

Roe vs wade was always a very iffy and controversial decision. Legal experts have questioned it for years. The more recent finding that abortion is not protected by the constitution is very detailed and has solid reasoning. It's not just a matter of deciding to throw something out because you don't like it. Any other case would have to have serious flaws to be thrown out same as this one.

So when they say this somehow opens the door to other cases being thrown out, it's complete and utter garbage. I doubt either of these two have even read the recent court decisions OR the court cases they're now claiming to be afraid will somehow be overturned.

It's this kind of fearmongering that makes so many people simply dismiss the left these days.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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That's what the fear is, yeah. The worst part is there are people GLAD for this possibility which just... does not compute. Other than these kinds of people are absolute fucking pieces of shit and shouldn't breed, but ya know :p
There's also Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird (the contraceptive cases), which Thomas has already said he would vote to overrule if they came before the Court.
 
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Serryah

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There's also Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird (the contraceptive cases), which Thomas has already said he would vote to overrule if they came before the Court.

I'd like to hope that it won't go that way, these things won't be overturned, but again, precedent doesn't matter anymore, and a lot of these were resolved under the 14th, were they not?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I'd like to hope that it won't go that way, these things won't be overturned, but again, precedent doesn't matter anymore, and a lot of these were resolved under the 14th, were they not?
Yep. The argument is over the "Due Process Clause" of the Fourteenth Amendment, which states in pertinent part

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. . .
One side of the debate is of the opinion that this means only that a state can deprive people of life/lib/property only by "due process," either a judicial proceeding or a law duly debated and passed. This is called "procedural due process."

The other side, called the "substantive due process" side argues that the "liberty" the state cannot deprive people of includes the liberty to marry whom they please, the liberty to use contraceptives, the liberty to have sex with whom they please, etc. The "procedural due process" side says that no such thing exists, states may do as they please as long as they follow the usual and Constitutional legislative or judicial requirements.

The argument in Loving v. Virginia was that it wasn't discriminatory: people of all races were equally forbidden to marry outside their races. Equal, right? (Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, it was never used except against White/Black marriages.) Same thing with the contraception cases. They argued that the various laws against contraception were equal and non-discriminatory, and therefore within the state's discretion, so long as the proper procedures were followed.

Personally, I think it's all by the way. The Ninth Amendment states, in full, “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

It's the old "seas" argument. One side views the law, all of it, from the Constitution down to local traffic ordinances, as a "sea" of individual rights within which certain "islands" of government power are identified and limited, by due process. The other side views the law a "sea" of government power with which are "islands" of individual rights, only those expressed in the Constitution and limited thereby. This view was best expressed by rejected Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork, who said "I find no right to privacy in the Constitution," and concluded that no right not laid out in the Constitution exists.

And who decides what rights the people have? Well, under Anglo-American-Canadian common law, going back to 1250 AD ("historical and traditional," right?) that power lies in the hands of judges. The right to be secure in your home was first enunciated by an English judge, not passed by Parliament or declared by the Crown. Considering that the U.S. and Canada basically took the judicial systems of England lock, stock, and barrel, it is only logical to conclude that whatever right a judge says you have, you have. The only way to change that is for a higher-level judge(s) to say otherwise, or for Congress or Parliament to pass a law limiting or eliminating the right.

So the Right is playing with fire here. If they're so hell-bent on eliminating rights properly found by the highest judges in the land, what prevents those same judges from eliminating the rights they love so much (mostly the rights to be an asshole and carry a gun)?

It's important to understand that all of this is merely a brake on government power, not a ban. "Both sides" have rights they hate and want to eliminate. All of this legislative and judicial folderol simply makes the governments slow down a little, and gives time for thought and debate before acting. By its very terms, the Constitution can be amended, including repealing parts of it (as we did with Prohibition), and the laws can be changed.

At the moment, the Right has the whip hand, because our government/legislative structure permits minority rule under the correct circumstances. For most of the 1955-2016 period, the Left held the whip hand.
 
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