HANDGUNS!!!!.......YIKES!!!!....in canada

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Regina, SK
Remember, this is simply for the sake of argument.....I do not necessarily accept the opening premise........
It's not a premise, it's a conclusion, based on a careful statistical analysis, that right to carry laws have no impact on the level any type of violent crime. That means in either direction, up or down. And in turn, that means the incidence of violent crime is the wrong evidence to use in attempting to justify right to carry laws as good public policy. It doesn't make the case.

The Miami police chief, and apparently you too, fell for the post hoc fallacy. Formally, it's post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for after this therefore because of this. Falling rates of violent crime after right to carry laws were introduced does not necessarily mean the latter caused the former, and proper statistical analysis in fact shows that it didn't, according to the authors of that document I found with Google.

It seems to me completely implausible that something subject to as many complex cultural and socioeconomic influences as the level of violent crime is, can be explained by something as simple as the level of people allowed to carry concealed handguns. This looks to me like another case of a remark usually attributed to that famous old curmudgeon, H.L. Mencken: "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

I'd have sworn he had "plausible" in there too, but I looked it up, and apparently my memory fooled me again.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Vancouver Island
When people are applying for guns, they can appear very responsible, hard working, no
criminal record, married, children, owns a house, but they don't have to tell 'whoever they
are applying to,
that they take drugs from time to time, that they have a drinking problem, that they
have a bad temper, and that they fight with their spouse quite often, so, on paper they
would be part of the stat that says, 'responsible' gun owners.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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In that particular case, it apparently did, though there may have been other ways to deal with that situation that would also have worked, but you can't--or at least shouldn't--generalize an anecdote into a basis for public policy.

I disagree. It is quite right and responsible to take personal experience more seriously than statistics from another country. My bias is derived from my authentic experience as opposed to an unauthentic experience which comes to me from statistical research which may or may not be credible, relevant or accurate. I am dubious of the research specifically because it comes from another country, a different demographic, law system, rules and regulations and above all culture. I would be a fool to let such research usurp my own authentic experience.

In particular, there's the issue of who defines what "responsible" gun ownership means in a legal sense, and precisely what it means.

Who defines "responsible" gun ownership are the people with the guns. The government can pass as many laws as it likes but at the end of the day only responsible people are likely to follow them. It is my opinion also that many responsible people may not follow them either if they are too draconian. Herein is where gun owners truly have the power and an appeal needs be made to their authentic experience or the argument loses credibility. Your never going to convince a Canadian gun owner their guns are a danger because some Americans are irresponsible. You will convince non gun owners with scary statistics and unauthentic experience but, as I think I have shown, that doesn't really matter much.

By far suicide is the most common cause of gun deaths in Canada. Only 0.4 of gun deaths out of 100,000 people is homicide. The annual rate of gun suicide is 2.0 per 100,000. So violent crime perpetrated by guns is really very minimal. Source

The current homicide rate in Canada is 1.8 per 100,000 This means 1.4 murders per 100,000 are by other means than guns. It seems like the panic over gun crime is mostly hyperbole. Source

In the USA homicide rate by gun is 3.98!!! That is a staggering difference at almost 10 times Canada's rate and so using facts derived from the US is terribly misleading.

What do you think might have happened if those scoundrels had also qualified as responsible gun owners and had been armed at the time of this event?

In the US they may have qualified as responsible gun owners but in Canada (as our gun rates attest to IMO) they wouldn't have qualified. Obviously they were criminally minded and I doubt very much they could have gone through the riggers required to own a handgun here. It's a lot more difficult than just showing a drivers licence like in some parts of the USA.

Obviously, since they are criminally minded, it was only luck that they were not armed since getting an illegal hand gun in Canada is really no big deal. Restricting gun ownership serves only to strip guns from responsible people.

It worked out as it did only because the veteran was the only one who happened to be armed.

Maybe. That's a pretty big assumption. It might have worked out because the scoundrels didn't have the patients to legaly aquire a gun; a trate common in such people, which I argue is why so few people are murdered by guns in Canada.

In Canada it is very likely that a gun owner is responsible but in the USA it isn't anywhere near as likely. I think that is what the statistics truly demonstrate.
 
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Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
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BC
When people are applying for guns, they can appear very responsible, hard working, no
criminal record, married, children, owns a house, but they don't have to tell 'whoever they
are applying to,
that they take drugs from time to time, that they have a drinking problem, that they
have a bad temper, and that they fight with their spouse quite often, so, on paper they
would be part of the stat that says, 'responsible' gun owners.

The glaring similarity all criminals have is an appetite for immediate gratification, something your list of vices missed, and as a matter of fact, such a character flaw does actually mean such people are much less likely to get a gun licence.

If the person you described were to get a gun in Canada then he/she would probably only use the gun on themselves to commit suicide.

It is an error to assume that criminals get their guns through legal means. Most gun murders are committed with stolen guns. Those guns typically come from American visitors.

One person I knew, back in the day, who made his living selling such things (and stealing cars) told me to find a gun all he needed to do was look for American plates, break in, look under the seat and in the glove box and he would find a gun 1 time in three.

So if your going to ban guns you better ban Americans too.
 
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#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Cool! I used to have a Browning Hi-Power. Got it when they first came out in 1969. Did a lot of plinking with it (never killed anyone with it). It was fun. Sold it to buy an antique single action revolver, which is also fun to plink with.

Just to be a nitpicker, the Browning Hi-Power was around during WW2. It was an officer's side arm in the Canadian military, also used by the Military police.

 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Was this .45 caliber?

Nope.

It was the last handgun designed by John Browning.......intended to be an inprovement on the 1911 :)......the design was finished by M. Saiuve (sp) after Browning's death. (he was the head armourer at FN) The gun came out in 1935, it is in 9mm, with a magazine capacity of 13 rounds. It is single action, exceptionally simple to strip, absolutely dependable, a a great piece.

I have two. :)

The most issued military sidearm of the twentieth century......
 
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Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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There is no real use for handguns in society other than to kill people. They don't have some side benefit that provides any compensation. Handguns and the people that own them have to go. One way or the other, it's time to clean up the criminal element that would harm or allow others to harm peaceful people.

A total handgun ban in Canada and a swift and severe response to those criminals who would attempt to disobey the ban is the only answer.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
There is no real use for handguns in society other than to kill people. They don't have some side benefit that provides any compensation. Handguns and the people that own them have to go. One way or the other, it's time to clean up the criminal element that would harm or allow others to harm peaceful people.

A total handgun ban in Canada and a swift and severe response to those criminals who would attempt to disobey the ban is the only answer.

A total handgun ban will take handguns away from laws abiding citizens only. Do you really think Snake, Guito, Hasseim and Moogooboogoo are going to turn theirs in just because there's a law? What's one more broken law to guys who do it every day?
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
I have a better idea, let's ban the criminals that use guns.

I think then you find that the gun itself is innocent.
 

Twig

Nominee Member
Sep 8, 2008
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Ontario
A total handgun ban in Canada and a swift and severe response to those criminals who would attempt to disobey the ban is the only answer.

How would that be enforced. After the fact?? I don't think someone intent on breaking the law and using a gun in the commission of a crime is going to think much about the consequences of their actions.

LW is right the three stooges won't turn their guns in because it's the law just like they didn't register them in the great gun registry a few years back. How inconsiderate.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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There is no real use for handguns in society other than to kill people. They don't have some side benefit that provides any compensation. Handguns and the people that own them have to go. One way or the other, it's time to clean up the criminal element that would harm or allow others to harm peaceful people.

A total handgun ban in Canada and a swift and severe response to those criminals who would attempt to disobey the ban is the only answer.

Yawn........the facts:

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/2008/922.htm

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/2008/feb26.htm

Read'em and weep.......
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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A total handgun ban will take handguns away from laws abiding citizens only. Do you really think Snake, Guito, Hasseim and Moogooboogoo are going to turn theirs in just because there's a law? What's one more broken law to guys who do it every day?

Who cares? One thing it does mean is that anyone with a gun is a dangerous armed criminal and can justifiably be shot on sight no questions asked. No fuss no muss and thankfully, no pesky trials and shifty lawyers to get them off on a technicality.

What's more, let's create law that attaches responsibility to the manufacturer of the gun and whomever they sold it to. If they can show that it was a legal sale in the US then the responsibility can be shifted to that person/company/group. I suppose that extradition from the US to Canada won't be too difficult so justice can be done.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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How would that be enforced. After the fact?? I don't think someone intent on breaking the law and using a gun in the commission of a crime is going to think much about the consequences of their actions.

LW is right the three stooges won't turn their guns in because it's the law just like they didn't register them in the great gun registry a few years back. How inconsiderate.

As I mentioned, open season. Handgun owners are supposed to be registered right now along with the weapons they have so taking those away shouldn't be too difficult, one way or the other. Then, simply seeing the gun is justification to blow their heads clean off.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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Toronto
Unforgiven, do you think that by stripping legal handgun owners of their weapons that you will see a measurable reduction in gun crime in areas like Jane & Finch?
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Oh bleat bleat bleat, ya friggin sheep. According to stats, your the type of person most likely to rape a woman and molest children. What's that tell ya white boy?

Here's a fact, every person killed with a handgun, would otherwise be a live today.

Here are some numbers to explan to us Colpy.

In 1992, handguns were used in the murders of 33 people in Britain, 36 in Sweden, 97 in Switzerland, 128 in Canada, 13 in Australia, 60 in Japan and 13,220 in the United States.

What's up with that?
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Unforgiven, do you think that by stripping legal handgun owners of their weapons that you will see a measurable reduction in gun crime in areas like Jane & Finch?

There should be no such thing as a legal hand gun owner in Canada. I would say that after ten years of strict border control and making American handgun manufactures responsible for anyone that is harmed by their weapons without exception, there would be no killings anywhere in Canada from an idiot with a handgun.

Get rid of shooting clubs, gun clubs, gun shops, no collectors, none of that crap. We don't need it here.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Gun people like to yell violation of their so-called right to bear arms, which is an american oddity not Canadian. What possible good is a handgun other than personal entertainment. It is useless as as a hunting weapon at a range greater than about ten feet. If you want a weapon for defence, a 12 GA shotgun is superior to any handgun and they are not disallowed under any law.