So ... when do they start taxing us to get the sun to rise in the west or to get gravity to pull from north to south? A tax to stop global warming.... What a bunch of freaking idiots. What we need is a new way of government.
Dion's national program brings hope
- Thread starter Avro
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I agree.There is WAY too much criticism of any plan from any party because of where it came from. I refrain from criticizing stupid conservative moves ,because there is enough of that going on,90% of the time. But,and this a big but,(bigger than libby's) I will not support a conservative action just because it is such. Having said that,Dion's plan is shallow.Not as bad as the Green's party plan,which would tax polluters at $50 a tonne immediately and give the windfall to students,but like Dion's plan it does not target pollution.Toronto is going to have an ever-increasing amount of smog days,that smog is locally owned and operated,taxing the oilsands is not going to make a whit(whiff) of a difference.Imposing a tax on the steel mills and the auto plants will reduce smog days because they will close down.I can reduce my 'carbon footprint' by riding a bycycle(built for 2),recycling my recyclables,and living green,but no,I want to travel,I want to drive,I want to enjoy life outside of the bubble boy's bubble.The liberal plan will force me closer to that,the green party has our heads in the bubble.That will leave just the politicians to travel the country taking notes and telling how well we are doing. BTW,you can still buy a license to hunt polar bears,with guns,on the frozen tundra,in Canada. Great googly moogly.
Also,the conservatives do have an enviromental plan,and Alberta already taxes emissions $15 a tonne,with the money actually funding emission control research. Don't expect cbc or ctv to bring that up in a conversation. They will not talk about these plans,but they will not stop anyone from saying that the plans do not exist.
He certainly did say that. Funny thing is that polls consistently show a majority favouring climate policy to address the issue, and they consistently show that Canadians prefer that the money be spent on other climate policies.
For instance, taxing carbon when there are few alternatives hurts. What does the person do who can't switch to public transit? But, then again, the whole point of a carbon tax in the first place is to be punitive on a bad habit. The whole point of being revenue neutral by cutting personal income and investment taxes is to reward earnings and savings, which are good for the economy.
Maybe the free market will prevail. Some intrepid person might invent electric trucks...oh wait, some guy did that in Vancouver, and our Government still hasn't licensed his vehicle for the road, while other countries have. That's pretty strange.
Hate to always be a damp blanket,BUT driving is not a bad habit,heating and lighting your house is not a bad habit,BBQ'ing a thick chunk of meat is not a bad habit. 'Blind faith 'because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy is a bad habit,unless you are listening to the band.The electric 'vehicles' that you are referring to could not reach 60k an hour,hmmm,that might not be a good thing to allow them on the roads. What the hey,to reduce polllution why don't we allow pensioners to drive their golfcarts on the roads?
Hmm, I guess contributing to respiratory illnesses is a good habit. Oh, and turning the Atlantic into an acid bath for chalky organisms that give us free oxygen is another great idea. And heavy metals like mercury polluting water and soils, then ending up in our food. Those do sound like good habits. Thanks for correcting my oversight.
Oh, and more of my shortsightedness. I thought having a viable alternative business would be good, you know, with high fuel prices and all. I also thought that entrepreneurs are the ones who grow products into industry changing companies, you know like Microsoft or Ford or General Electric. But I must have been wrong on that too.
You're not a damp blanket, you're a wet nap.
No doubt,I'm a wetnap that cleans the dirt off of the fingers of people who can't do it themselves. Your first paragraph replys to exactly what ?????? Something to do with Dion.I think. Tobacco,maybe. Heavy metals,like Metallica,or the batteries that run hybrid cars,that die after 7 or 8 years making your smug car unsaleable. Nah.it has nothing to do with anything on this thread but it makes you feel better. Your second paragraph about your shortsightedness means what?? Who is going to start this 'viable alternative business'.? Dion's plan somehow will make entrepeneurs develop products by making them poor? ....Grab your cloth grocery bag,the one that makes you feel GREEN,exchange it for a bad plastic one,and write a note to me telling why you can't live in the real world anymore. Then place the evil bag over your head,chant humans are bad until you feel fuzzy and warm,you're almost there, another minute or two. Do you see dying polar bears? Hmmm,that is good,you have reduced your 'carbon footprint'. That will make a difference,unless you get cremated and let all those silly carbon-based elements back in the air. Getting buried will only result in oil,down the line a bit. Damn,I wish I could help you,but if you believe that Dion's plan is sound there really is no hope. Cheers.
The provinces have been on the dole you say? What an ignorant thing.... get some damn education. There are no jobs here, because A) The fishing industry went to crap, B) Ever since Canada decided to develop more out west, the money went with it, C) We are not the country's slack asses, I'll leave that job up to you. There are no jobs out here, plain and simple, and while Canada pumps all their money out west into the Oil Sands and other developments, we're stuck here with thousands apon thousands of our work force and younger generation taking off out west to work in that filthy oil sands project, because they simply want to work.
But you're right.... we're all poor, lazy assholes as you like to make us out to be.... I got this computer I'm talking to you with right now from the money you gave us in taxes.... thanks buddy. Next, I'm gonna get a Mustang just for the hell of it.
Ignorant.
Ok, time to bring you back to school again:
^ You see this big colorful picture? It's called a Map..... can you say Map? Sure, I knew you could. Now little Juan, I know this looks a little complicated with all the big words and lines, but do you see down at the bottom of Nova Scotia where is says "Clarke's Harbour?" Well there is an island pretty much where that dot is above the name and it's called Cape Sable Island.... can you say Cape..... Sable...... Island? There you go, very good Juan.
That Island, Cape Sable Island, you can drive around in about an hour if you took your time, which I know since some of my family lives on that island. Now take a look all the way back up the picture to that place called PEI.....
Do you think it would take the same amount of time to loop around PEI as it would with that island you can't even see because it's so small by Clarke's Harbour?
Shake your head..... Nooooooo..... that's right, very good Juan.... here's a cookie.
Yes, we're doing it to ourselves, that's why thousands are leaving to work crap ass jobs out west because there are no jobs or business put back over here in comparison to the rest of the country.
Yes, we're doing it to ourselves just like Ontario's doing it to their auto industry and whom that province will soon be begging for work, money and funds...... like it's not going to happen in Alberta eventually once the oil sands are used up..... guess what's going to happen to Fort McMurray when it's all said and done? They're going to be begging for money and work too and the crap is going to hit the fan on them.
Oh but they did it to themselves apparently. You're still ignorant.
Here's another way to look at it:
You know when artists and musicians make their big announcement of going on a "Cross Canada Tour?" ~ Yeah some Cross Canada..... they almost always start the tour in Montreal...... and then head west. FU Too Musicians and Artists *Gives Finger* Usually the only one's that come and start their tours here, are the ones' who are from here.
Yeah.... I just don't understand why maritimers are so sarcastic and bitter all the time.... I just can't figure it out.... hmmmmm....
Oh wow, that was so educational, thank you for wasting my time yet again.
You send me a PDF listing off the MLA's for each provience and territory.... you bitched that PEI has 27 MLA's......
Holy snot rags, they beat out the Yukon, Northwest and Nunavut for MLA's..... *slaps forehead* who would have thunk it?
Man, I don't know why they shouldn't just have one MLA I guess.....
Go back to school, stop wasting my time.
Added:
Oh and...
THE TAX WILL NOT BE REVENUE NEUTRAL, COLLECTIVLY!
Now here's a garden hose and a golf ball son.... do what you do best!
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*shrugs* I didn't make it.... chances it's due to the amount of spacing they require between the copy/text so they just put in the more commonly known ones. They don't even have New Glasgow or Pictou marked on the map.... but it's purpose was met for what I needed it for.
Dion’s Green Shift Plan
June 19th, 2008 ·
The Federal Liberals unveiled their Green Shift Plan today:
To offset the GHG tax, the Liberals propose broad-based income tax cuts. The lowest tax rate will fall to 13.5% from 15% and the middle brackets (currently 22% and 26%) will see a cut of 1%. They also propose a new child tax benefit worth $350 on top of all existing benefits but plan to replace the $1,000 employment credit (worth $150 today) with a $1,850 refundable employment credit for Canadians earning less than $50,000 per year. Also, Mr. Dion also plans to enhance the Working Income Tax Benefit and make the Disability Tax Credit refundable. Corporations and small businesses will see a 1% cut in the tax rate.
The Green Shift book claims that at $40 per tonne the average direct cost to a household will be approximately $250. The Green Shift website has a calculator that can be used to estimate the tax savings.
Mr. Dion’s plan is certainly a bold political gamble, especially at a time when Canadians are paying more at the pumps and at the grocery store. It is unclear to me how the plan will cost an average family only $250 but the tax savings accruing to every household with an income of up to $100,000 ranges from $420 to $2,700. How can it be revenue-neutral unless it comes out of someone’s pocket? And who is that unfortunate person or family who will be paying more?
Beats the hell outa me. It can't be revenue neautral for everyone.
June 19th, 2008 ·
The Federal Liberals unveiled their Green Shift Plan today:
We will cut taxes on those things we all want more of such as income, investment and innovation. And we will shift those taxes to what we all want less of: pollution, greenhouse gas emissions and waste. We need to make polluters pay and put every single penny back into the hands of Canadians.
The plan proposes to tax greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions at $10 per tonne immediately and rise by an additional $10 per tonne each year until it reaches $40 per tonne within four years.
To offset the GHG tax, the Liberals propose broad-based income tax cuts. The lowest tax rate will fall to 13.5% from 15% and the middle brackets (currently 22% and 26%) will see a cut of 1%. They also propose a new child tax benefit worth $350 on top of all existing benefits but plan to replace the $1,000 employment credit (worth $150 today) with a $1,850 refundable employment credit for Canadians earning less than $50,000 per year. Also, Mr. Dion also plans to enhance the Working Income Tax Benefit and make the Disability Tax Credit refundable. Corporations and small businesses will see a 1% cut in the tax rate.
The Green Shift book claims that at $40 per tonne the average direct cost to a household will be approximately $250. The Green Shift website has a calculator that can be used to estimate the tax savings.
Mr. Dion’s plan is certainly a bold political gamble, especially at a time when Canadians are paying more at the pumps and at the grocery store. It is unclear to me how the plan will cost an average family only $250 but the tax savings accruing to every household with an income of up to $100,000 ranges from $420 to $2,700. How can it be revenue-neutral unless it comes out of someone’s pocket? And who is that unfortunate person or family who will be paying more?
Beats the hell outa me. It can't be revenue neautral for everyone.
I'm one of them. I have to survive on a disability pension that's gone up 6% since 1995 when it was knocked down by 20%. I don't pay income tax - but I have to pay the increased cost for groceries, gas, hydro - you name it.
So you'll be voting Conservative next time.......
Seriously, that REALLY sucks. Dion is a bloody professor....likeable, but not at all in touch with reality.
In Sociology, no less. Talk about Ivory Tower!
Praxius you doughhead.
For many decades now there has been a system of equalization payments. This was put in place so that the richer provinces helped ease the load on the provinces that were not so rich. Traditionally, the have provinces have been B.C., Alberta, and Ontario, and sometimes Quebec. The have not provinces have generally been all the rest.
I never called you lazy assholes. I said the maritimes have pretty much always been receiving equalization payments from the rest of Canada. That is the way Canada works and I like it that way. Just don't tell me that the other provinces have been sucking money out of the maritimes......It's just not true!
To you. I guess I need to explain it for you. Carbon emissions are the bad habit. You conflated the harm with activities that don't need to be harmful. It's rhetorical clap trap. Cars don't need gasoline to exist. So I spun your rhetorical crap, and threw in a taste of what is harmful about it(pollution.) Is that slowed down enough for you?
It was a jab. You're pro at giving them, but apparently not so keen on recognizing when your own words are spun in the same fashion.
Not people like you. People who can see beyond their noses perhaps.
It's called opportunity you dolt. When pollution is externalized, the costs are passed on. A carbon tax stops that, as would cap and trade. When the playing field is evened, that is an opportunity for innovation that wouldn't be possible due to the market economics of the current situation. How does renewable energy compete when dirty energy isn't penalized for causing health risks?
I bike to the grocery store with my backpack. No need for bags. I do have a better plan though. I'll not write you a note, and I'll go on living in the real world. Not Wally's world. I can live just fine without demagogues like you.
So, do you make a habit of telling people to asphyxiate themselves when they have a different outlook? What a vile bug you are.
Umm, no it won't. I'm not the right organism, nor would my body end up in the right conditions for oil. Pond scum like you might fare well though.
Another CanCon dolt who needs straw men. You definitely aren't in Kansas anymore, and you do need to seek the aid found in Emerald city. Where did I say it was sound? I, like the polled Canadians I mentioned, would rather see the revenue used for things like better public transit and research credits. Options that would work better with Dion's plan, that so far hasn't explained what and where the savings will come from.
Here's a bit of a different spin on this discussion.
Stephane Dion and his Green Shift plan are not being accepted with open arms out here in the West at all. Western Canada has lived through the National Energy Plan once already and will not put up with this sort of plan ever again. The N.E.P. was true economic oppression to Western Canada and it snuffed out the fledgling Saskatchewan oil industry for close to 15 years and pulled untold Billions out of Alberta crippling it's economic base. This will never be allowed to happen again. Talk of separation is going on out here in Western Canada now, and it's not just the wing-nut fringe element either. This is working its way into the daily conversations normal & rational people who remember the N.E.P. and the talk isn't passionate rhetoric; it's calm, cool, rational discussion to the effect that, if the Green Plan comes in with the Liberal Party, then Western Canada is out. The conversation is just too matter of fact to not be taken seriously. I couln't have pictured this just three months ago but it's happening right now, and it is very real. For those out there that are unaware of the "National Energy Plan" that this "Green Shift" plan is being perceived as the NEP-2
out in Western Canada, you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program
My question to you folks in Quebec and the Maritimes is, do you even know that this is happening out here in Western Canada? I understand that much of Eastern Canada generally leans Left politically (Liberal, or NDP, or Parti Quebecois), but right now between Alberta and Saskatchewan together there is exactly one Liberal MP and he (Ralph Goodale) will not be getting a seat in the next Federal election. Are you even aware of this movement towards Western separation in your half of Canada?
Again, I'm stuck wading through the media with different papers leaning Left in the coverage in the East and Right in the coverage in the West. Do the folks out in the East understand just how much of a threat to our economies and our way of life that the Green Plan is perceived as? This is not seen as some kind of 'save the environment program' at all, but purely as (much like the N.E.P. from '80-'85) a new way for the Liberal Party to buy votes in Eastern Canada with Western money and resourses as it knows it can't count on a single Liberal MP out of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Is this being spun in a completely different way out there? There are always at least two different sides to every story, and I'm curious as to what the other side could be. Can I get some input from someone in Quebec and someone in the Maritimes please?
Stephane Dion and his Green Shift plan are not being accepted with open arms out here in the West at all. Western Canada has lived through the National Energy Plan once already and will not put up with this sort of plan ever again. The N.E.P. was true economic oppression to Western Canada and it snuffed out the fledgling Saskatchewan oil industry for close to 15 years and pulled untold Billions out of Alberta crippling it's economic base. This will never be allowed to happen again. Talk of separation is going on out here in Western Canada now, and it's not just the wing-nut fringe element either. This is working its way into the daily conversations normal & rational people who remember the N.E.P. and the talk isn't passionate rhetoric; it's calm, cool, rational discussion to the effect that, if the Green Plan comes in with the Liberal Party, then Western Canada is out. The conversation is just too matter of fact to not be taken seriously. I couln't have pictured this just three months ago but it's happening right now, and it is very real. For those out there that are unaware of the "National Energy Plan" that this "Green Shift" plan is being perceived as the NEP-2
out in Western Canada, you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program
My question to you folks in Quebec and the Maritimes is, do you even know that this is happening out here in Western Canada? I understand that much of Eastern Canada generally leans Left politically (Liberal, or NDP, or Parti Quebecois), but right now between Alberta and Saskatchewan together there is exactly one Liberal MP and he (Ralph Goodale) will not be getting a seat in the next Federal election. Are you even aware of this movement towards Western separation in your half of Canada?
Again, I'm stuck wading through the media with different papers leaning Left in the coverage in the East and Right in the coverage in the West. Do the folks out in the East understand just how much of a threat to our economies and our way of life that the Green Plan is perceived as? This is not seen as some kind of 'save the environment program' at all, but purely as (much like the N.E.P. from '80-'85) a new way for the Liberal Party to buy votes in Eastern Canada with Western money and resourses as it knows it can't count on a single Liberal MP out of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Is this being spun in a completely different way out there? There are always at least two different sides to every story, and I'm curious as to what the other side could be. Can I get some input from someone in Quebec and someone in the Maritimes please?
I'm working in Alberta for the summer, I live and study in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia and Newfoundland are making money from the same resource. In fact Newfoundland won't be getting equalization payments this fiscal year due to the boom in off-shore oil. Newfoundland stands to lose almost as much as Alberta does. Alberta has bigger problems right now though. The market for Alberta bitumen is souring. Even without a Canadian carbon tax, American states and cities are looking for cleaner resources too, some already have carbon taxes, and US cities have taken the first step towards punishing dirty energy like tar sand, oil shale and liquified coal. No matter who is elected in the US, there will be some sort of cap and trade, likely including clauses which account for all emissions during the life cycle of fuel.
If Alberta were smart, they'd invest a hell of a lot more money in sequestration. I know Saskatchewan has ambitions to do the same. Better to cover your ass before it gets painful.
If Alberta were smart, they'd invest a hell of a lot more money in sequestration. I know Saskatchewan has ambitions to do the same. Better to cover your ass before it gets painful.
if Alberta were to produce 10,000,000 barrels of oil per day we could produce that amount each and every day for 47 years. and that is from the 175,000,000,000 barrels of oil that can EASILY be reached, there are a further 1 trillion barrels on top of that amount that can be produced as new technology comes online. At some time Albertas share will be about 25% - @ 200.00 per barrel that's 50.00 dollars per barrel x10,000,000 = $500,000,000 per day x 365 =$182,500,000,000/per year if we could get production up that high we could pay off the national debt in less than 5 years and save all our asses and nobody would have to pay any taxes ever- The Americans are going to change the classification of the oilsands to conventional oil to get around the dirty oil moniker- in short they would rather buy it from a stable democracy, who is geographicaly closer and a friend to them, than from some assholes from the middle east who want to destroy them. we could drop a hundred billion on the cleanup and turn the mines into pristine wilderness better than it was before. I don't know if any of you have been down the Athabasca river, but if you were to canoe down the river on a hot summers day you would see tons of bitumen(naturally) seeping out of the banks and into the ecosystem.