Is it up to us to believe in God?

[elgazzaradel]

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional...
Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while...
This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create the universe in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been....
As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course...
He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others...
He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end.
He chose some part of the universe - we call it Earth -...
He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free. No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening.
He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed for them at that time....
He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation. Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind. Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe... He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing....
But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown....
Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions...
Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing.....
So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life....
People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture...

What do you think? Share your opinions..

 

[AnotherMother]

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional...
Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while...
This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create the universe in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been....
As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course...
He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others...
He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end.
He chose some part of the universe - we call it Earth -...
He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free. No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening.
He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed for them at that time....
He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation. Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind. Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe... He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing....
But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown....
Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions...
Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing.....
So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life....
People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture...

What do you think? Share your opinions..

Dinasaurs pre dated the written word? But I still had the kids believe in the giant rabbitt who snuck in the house at night and brought replicas of himself in the form of chocolate. And the flying reindeer what they were easily led to believe. Thats ok. They can think
for themselves when they are older. Get a Big Bang out of that one!

 

[Corduroy]

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional...

Depends on the God. Some people think God rewards good people and punishes bad people. Still others believe that good and bad are largely irrelevant and that God rewards people who believe and punishes people who don't. And of course I'm sure there are mixes and other options.

To those who believe God rewards belief and punishes non-belief, believing in God is not optional. They may pretend that God gives them the choice, but the choice is coercive and thus not a real choice. If a psychopath holds a gun to your head and says "sing me a song or I'll kill you" is he really giving you options? But it's worse than that because in the case of the divine psychopath its "worship me forever or be tortured forever," and the former isn't all that different from the latter.

So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life....
People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture....

If your scenario is true, I agree it is a very important matter and one should not get distracted with the petty details of life. I don't understand why the religious are so preoccupied with power and influence on Earth or why they don't run hysterically through the streets shouting "don't you know you're going to Hell!?!"

But I don't believe in any of that so I am free to distract myself with petty details. And it's great that I don't believe I have a celestial nanny watching over me and tsk-tsking my behaviour. I'm free to engage in whatever debauchery I feel like. It's a wonderful thing. If the God I described above (the divine psychopath) existed, I paraphrase Mikhail Bakunin in saying that it would be necessary to abolish him.

 

[MHz]

Some people think God rewards good people and punishes bad people.

If your scenario is true, I agree it is a very important matter and one should not get distracted with the petty details of life. I don't understand why the religious are so preoccupied with power and influence on Earth or why they don't run hysterically through the streets shouting "don't you know you're going to Hell!?!"

it would be necessary to abolish him.

And you wonder why some are not treated very nicely? With the two groups, what become of the ones who are punished, like the ones your example suggests you would belong to?

 

[gopher]

I'll worship any god that will give me a wealthy wife or two or three.

 

[In Between Man]

deleted post

 

[lone wolf]

Belief in a God is one thing. Being sucked into Church headgames is another....

 

[china]

Depends on the God. Some people think God rewards good people and punishes bad people. Still others believe that good and bad are largely irrelevant and that God rewards people who believe and punishes people who don't. And of course I'm sure there are mixes and other options.

To those who believe God rewards belief and punishes non-belief, believing in God is not optional. They may pretend that God gives them the choice, but the choice is coercive and thus not a real choice. If a psychopath holds a gun to your head and says "sing me a song or I'll kill you" is he really giving you options? But it's worse than that because in the case of the divine psychopath its "worship me forever or be tortured forever," and the former isn't all that different from the latter.

If your scenario is true, I agree it is a very important matter and one should not get distracted with the petty details of life. I don't understand why the religious are so preoccupied with power and influence on Earth or why they don't run hysterically through the streets shouting "don't you know you're going to Hell!?!"

But I don't believe in any of that so I am free to distract myself with petty details. And it's great that I don't believe I have a celestial nanny watching over me and tsk-tsking my behaviour. I'm free to engage in whatever debauchery I feel like. It's a wonderful thing. If the God I described above (the divine psychopath) existed, I paraphrase Mikhail Bakunin in saying that it would be necessary to abolish him.

Corduroy ,

Depends on the God. Some people think God rewards good people and punishes bad people.

What is god ?

 

[Praxius]

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional...

Oh boy, this should be good......

Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while...
This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create the universe in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been....
As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course...
He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others...
He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end.

If he, or "God" already knows how it will all end, why bother doing any of this in the first place? That's like watching a movie you wrote, you acted in, you recorded and you already know the ending to.... Bottom line, it'd be pretty damn boring.

He chose some part of the universe - we call it Earth -...
He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free.

Well that's good, cuz we already pay for everything else in our lives..... no wait, in many places we pay for our water, never mind. I guess I should be grateful there's no "God Tax" on top of it all.

No wait, there is.... the tax is us being obligated to believe and worship God or later on be sent to prison, or Hell if you will.

No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening.

Just because something is life threatening, doesn't mean other people are prevented from denying these things to others, through force & violence.

He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed for them at that time....

Why? Why would we need to be aware of these things later on, but not anytime earlier? Why not keep us dumb & ignorant forever? Humans being smart and intelligent is what led to people leaving religions and not believing in God in the first place.

He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation.

Well that's a little self-centered.

Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind.

All other creatures on this planet have minds of their own as well.... they just work differently. Ever own a cat, dog or some other pet and notice their reactions to pain, happiness, sadness, etc.? They have minds of their own, just as we do.

Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe...

So birds are not aware of the themselves compared to the universe around them? I suppose they just continually fly into walls and trees all the time because they're not aware of those things?

He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing....

The entire concept of God creating the universe is directly related to everything being created from nothing..... sez Genesis anyways. You sure you know what you're talking about?

But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown....

You sure it's a "He?"

If time & space is irrelevant to God, then why would Gender be?

Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people.

Ah, you mean "Crazies?"

Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions...

Asked? Wouldn't God already know? Why would God have to Ask??

Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing.....

And thousands of people for centuries used to say that we can't fly, that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the Earth and aliens would invade us from Mars..... that doesn't make them right.

So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life....

No, the biggest matter in life is to live your life, to understand & explore all that you can, and to look out for your fellow human being, your fellow creature and everything else that matters..... because God won't do it.... because God doesn't exist. We are all on our own and we are responsible for everything that we do.... we are derrived from this planet, this planet is derrived from other elements from the Universe, the Universe is derrived from the Big Bang and the Big Bang is derrived from a previous Universe that existed long before this one which collapsed in on itself, much like how our's will over time.

What started it all? Who created the Universe?

Maybe we did...... but answering that question would bring about more answers then asking "Who created God?"

You could say God has always existed, but that's just short sighted and a cop out.

People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture...

And some people get so involved in believing Santa created everything and is watching everything you do, that they simply ignore the whole picture because it's too complicated and scary to them. They want the dependance on something more powerful then they are controlling every aspect of our lives.... they want the comfort in believing that everything they do and everything around them is none of their responsibility because some magical being in the sky is controlling it all and has a "Plan"

In the end, it is entirely up to us to determine if we believe in a God or not..... we determine which answers make us feel better at night when we sleep soundly on our pillows..... beliving in a God is optional because it's been optional for me since I moved out and left the Church. It being optional is true, because my existence is living proof..... and so is many other people living their lives without believing in a God.

But thanks for that assumption-scenario.... it entertained me for a couple of minutes.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional.

I don't find it astonishing at all, I think it's entirely predictable. Does it not occur to you that it's their rationality that leads them to conclude such belief is optional?

Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while.
...
What do you think? Share your opinions..

Okay. I think that if there were any good evidence to support those assumptions you make in the bits that I replaced in your post with the ellipsis, you might have a point. But there isn't, as far as I know, so my opinion is that such speculations are pointless. To give them a point, the existence of a deity such as you describe has to be established, and it hasn't been. There's no evidence to offer or argument to be made in support of his existence that doesn't apply equally well to countless other deities humanity has invented that are now, by any sensible standard, extinct. In fact I've never encountered any evidence or argument that doesn't admit of a much simpler explanation than the hypothesis that's there's a supernatural being that has some interest in us. I'm one of those very rational people you refer to, and not only do I think belief in god is optional, I think the god you're talking about, in common with every other god anyone has ever talked about, is a human invention with no reality outside the realm of ideas.

 

[Cliffy]

Gawd damn it Dex (I just had to say that) this is a 4 year old thread. You are right, there is no evidence or rational for a personal god. The war god of the desert is not someone any of us would dream up if we were to feel the need to invent a god. I think if there was a creator, it would be benevolent and would be highly amused at all this mental masturbation over whether or not it existed.

 

[Praxius]

..... Okay. I think that if there were any good evidence to support those assumptions you make in the bits that I replaced in your post with the ellipsis, you might have a point. But there isn't, as far as I know, so my opinion is that such speculations are pointless. To give them a point, the existence of a deity such as you describe has to be established, and it hasn't been. There's no evidence to offer or argument to be made in support of his existence that doesn't apply equally well to countless other deities humanity has invented that are now, by any sensible standard, extinct. In fact I've never encountered any evidence or argument that doesn't admit of a much simpler explanation than the hypothesis that's there's a supernatural being that has some interest in us. I'm one of those very rational people you refer to, and not only do I think belief in god is optional, I think the god you're talking about, in common with every other god anyone has ever talked about, is a human invention with no reality outside the realm of ideas.

Haven't you heard?

Thousands of people through the Centuries, like himself, saying that God exists and has done all of this, is the evidence you seek..... kind of like how hundreds of Global Warming-supporting scientists claim the world is going to end is all the evidence people need to believe it actually is...... regardless of contradictions & evidence replaced with assumptions and speculations.

It people shout long enough that the sky is falling, then apparently is really is.

 

[damngrumpy]

Are you saying believing in God is not optional? Are you suggesting that in a democratic
state people should be forced to believe regardless of what they really believe? And if so
how the hell do you intend to enforce that? God is a concept, some people believe in a
form of God even though everyone does not believe the same things about God. Some
do not believe in anything. I for example am so sick of hearing about what we have to
believe or can't believe I think I will worship the number 17 sounds logical to me regardless
of what others think. You don't think I am right? Well show me your scientific proof that the
living God of the ancients being two thousand years ago, is still alive and thriving. To do
that you will have to show me photo's of Heaven itself.
The point is, no one has to believe anything, and belief is in fact optional, the reason is we
live in a free society and we have the right to our beliefs, but I am sure there are people like
you who would really like to change that, so God the ego maniac can be master of the
universe. Its either that or you are making the rules for God.

 

[Cliffy]

Maximus Prime is god.

 

[talloola]

Its either that or you are making the rules for God.

Those are wise words indeed, and the very truth, any and every rule or word said to be from god, is actually manufactured by man.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Gawd damn it Dex (I just had to say that) this is a 4 year old thread.

Yes, I spotted that on the OP, but I'm not the one who resurrected it. It didn't generate any interest the first time, but I thought if somebody wants to talk about it again, I'll put my two bits worth in. I have a reputation to maintain, after all...

 

[Cliffy]

Yes, I spotted that on the OP, but I'm not the one who resurrected it. It didn't generate any interest the first time, but I thought if somebody wants to talk about it again, I'll put my two bits worth in. I have a reputation to maintain, after all...

Your reputation is unsullied.

 

[Praxius]

...... I for example am so sick of hearing about what we have to
believe or can't believe I think I will worship the number 17 sounds logical to me regardless
of what others think.

And I shall worship 7 of 9's catsuit. :lol:

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Haven't you heard?

Thousands of people through the Centuries, like himself, saying that God exists and has done all of this, is the evidence you seek...

Yes, I've heard that, and the claim is false, that isn't evidence. It's hearsay, anecdote, and speculation. At best.

 

[Cliffy]

I want a shot at the god title. Three rounds, no holds barred.