‘Painful summer ahead:’ Gas prices reach 211.9 in Metro Vancouver, expected to rise

The_Foxer

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Meanwhile in Europe....

Europeans Plan on Banning EV Charging To Avoid Blackouts​

2 weeks ago
Switzerland may ban electric vehicles from being used except for “essential” purposes this winter as government officials plan for a possible energy crisis during the winter months. Swiss officials drafted emergency proposals that restrict power usage if electricity shortages occur this winter. They include fewer hours for shop owners, limited use of streaming services, lower temperature settings on buildings of 20 degrees Celsius or 68 degrees Fahrenheit, bans on concerts, theater performances and sporting events, as well as only essential use of electric vehicles. The irony of the electric vehicle restriction is that present government policy has electric vehicles ramping up to 50 percent of new car sales by 2025. It’s tough to convince car buyers to go electric if the government restricts their use because of an electricity shortage. Switzerland fears possible blackouts because the country relies on hydropower for 60 percent of its electricity production, but in the winter months that production slows and the country must rely on imports to fill the gap. Electricity is expected to be in short supply in Europe this winter, so import reliance may become difficult.
This follows California;s rolling brown outs and such due to trying to switch to mostly solar power and then realizing everyone still runs their air conditioner after dark, etc etc Virtually all these 'green' initiatives wind up the same - people don't think about how it's ACTUALLY going to work and then there's consequences.

And the people don't hold the gov'ts to account for it, and then when it happens again they're all like "wot haaappppeennn?"
 
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Dixie Cup

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This follows California;s rolling brown outs and such due to trying to switch to mostly solar power and then realizing everyone still runs their air conditioner after dark, etc etc Virtually all these 'green' initiatives wind up the same - people don't think about how it's ACTUALLY going to work and then there's consequences.

And the people don't hold the gov'ts to account for it, and then when it happens again they're all like "wot haaappppeennn?"
Governments in both the U.S. and Canada seem to have missed a critical piece of information required for everyone who wants to drive an EV. Our electrical system cannot support this.

What about this can't they understand? What is it that people can't understand? Brown outs? Black outs? Seriously? That's what we have to look forward to?
 

pgs

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Governments in both the U.S. and Canada seem to have missed a critical piece of information required for everyone who wants to drive an EV. Our electrical system cannot support this.

What about this can't they understand? What is it that people can't understand? Brown outs? Black outs? Seriously? That's what we have to look forward to?
They will no longer be there in 2030 . They are simply virtue signalling . Kick the can down the road .
 

Ron in Regina

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This follows California;s rolling brown outs and such due to trying to switch to mostly solar power and then realizing everyone still runs their air conditioner after dark, etc etc Virtually all these 'green' initiatives wind up the same - people don't think about how it's ACTUALLY going to work and then there's consequences.

And the people don't hold the gov'ts to account for it, and then when it happens again they're all like "wot haaappppeennn?"
Currently a little more than 2% of new vehicles registered in Canada have been full EVs (About 5% more have been hybrids.) & now the Liberal/NDP are insisting nearly one-quarter must be electric by 2026, just four years from now?

How does Justin/Jagmeet imagine it is going to be possible for manufacturers to ramp up production by four or fivefold in under 48 months when there are already waiting lists of up to six months at dealerships just to supply current demand?

Let’s pretend for a minute, though, such a manufacturing miracle were possible, that still wouldn’t make Guilbeault’s green dream achievable.

Where would all the home charging stations come from? And the installations? And all the public charging stations along remote highways?

Beyond that, where would all the extra generating capacity come from to charge all those EVs?

Are there a bunch of new powerplants under construction in Canada? Or would we, like the Europeans faced with an energy crisis, have to turn back on all the coal-fired powerplants that “green” politicians have mothballed over the last decade and a half?

Whenever eco-righteous politicians announce these grand schemes, they never accompany their announcements with practical plans to make their schemes reality.

Electric vehicles in Canada are mostly urban commuter vehicles for upper-middle class drivers in just three cities. Two-thirds of all EVs sales are in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to people earning over $80,000 a year. Consumers everywhere else consider EVs unreliable for Canada’s long distances and harsh winters.

Are the Liberals going to shrink the country and warm its winters to reach their EV goals? Built everyone everywhere a heated garage that lives wherever REAL winter happens with their own recycled tax dollars? Not all Canadians live in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver.
 

pgs

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Nov 29, 2008
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Currently a little more than 2% of new vehicles registered in Canada have been full EVs (About 5% more have been hybrids.) & now the Liberal/NDP are insisting nearly one-quarter must be electric by 2026, just four years from now?

How does Justin/Jagmeet imagine it is going to be possible for manufacturers to ramp up production by four or fivefold in under 48 months when there are already waiting lists of up to six months at dealerships just to supply current demand?

Let’s pretend for a minute, though, such a manufacturing miracle were possible, that still wouldn’t make Guilbeault’s green dream achievable.

Where would all the home charging stations come from? And the installations? And all the public charging stations along remote highways?

Beyond that, where would all the extra generating capacity come from to charge all those EVs?

Are there a bunch of new powerplants under construction in Canada? Or would we, like the Europeans faced with an energy crisis, have to turn back on all the coal-fired powerplants that “green” politicians have mothballed over the last decade and a half?

Whenever eco-righteous politicians announce these grand schemes, they never accompany their announcements with practical plans to make their schemes reality.

Electric vehicles in Canada are mostly urban commuter vehicles for upper-middle class drivers in just three cities. Two-thirds of all EVs sales are in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to people earning over $80,000 a year. Consumers everywhere else consider EVs unreliable for Canada’s long distances and harsh winters.

Are the Liberals going to shrink the country and warm its winters to reach their EV goals? Built everyone everywhere a heated garage that lives wherever REAL winter happens with their own recycled tax dollars? Not all Canadians live in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver.
Capitalism baby , where there is a demand , it will be filled .
 

The_Foxer

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Where would all the home charging stations come from?
That's a bigger question than some might think. For detached home installations it's not a huge problem, tho the local grid would require upgrading at some point. But - stratas are another matter. They have their own infrastructure internally and most of them, even recent builds, wouldn't have the horsepower to handle even 1 in 6 of the parking stalls having charging stations suitable for full EV's. Not to mention running the power to the various stalls alone costs well into the thousands or even tens of thousands depending how much coring needs to be done. And owners don't want to vote for that when they don't own an EV, so you're not going to get early buy in.

Sure you can help mitigate the problem with load balancing, but that has it's own challenges and it doesn't change the fact that the building's electric infrastructure needs to get upgraded and that also costs huge bucks. Even townhouses have that problem.

I see this issue already on a daily basis - there is no universe where they can make that infrastructure happen in a few years, they'd have to pass a law requiring buidlings to be upgraded immediately or there just wouldn't be the time to do it.
 

The_Foxer

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Capitalism baby , where there is a demand , it will be filled .
Sure - in time. But not overnight. It's just not practical the way they're doing it. Capitalism works in a free market, not when gov't tips the scales in the market in one area. You can't "Mandate" the market sale of vehicles then hope that there won't be a ripple elsewhere.
 

petros

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Sure - in time. But not overnight. It's just not practical the way they're doing it. Capitalism works in a free market, not when gov't tips the scales in the market in one area. You can't "Mandate" the market sale of vehicles then hope that there won't be a ripple elsewhere.
Its super easy to achieve 25%. Ban ICEs in specific classes.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Imagine for a minute that it’s 2035. Imagine that ICE vehicles are a thing that is outlawed for any new sales. Filling stations are few and far between now.

People are forced to only buy EV’s, and then winter happens. Real winter, and it’s not Toronto/Vancouver winter, but Winnipeg/Regina/Edmonton and all rural surrounding areas winter.

Outside of the 1,000,000+ population areas were public transit really doesn’t work, and there isn’t any real greyhound or STC or regional bus lines that make any sense. Somebody in the country needs to drive an hour to the city to get groceries and a prescription and then get home in the winter (real world winter with -40°C). What happens?

Somebody drives their EV to work and their employer does not have somewhere for them to plug-in and they have to work for an eight or nine or 10 or 12 hour shift, and its actual real winter, and the EV has been sucking on its own nipples to try and keep its own battery warm for that time. Then they have to be able to get home so that they can repeat this the next day?

Imagine that the poor bastard above doesn’t have a single family separate dwelling with a garage but lives in an apartment building with an outside parking lot so they can’t heat their electric car and it’s batteries overnight while charging it so they only get a quarter of a charge that night maybe…. And it’s -30°C for a week or two or three straight.

I honestly looked last night for real world, actual real winter, EV battery degradation data, and all I could find was the same data set from England for winter conditions, showing the degradation from -1°C to -6 point some or another degrees Celsius…& that’s it. I couldn’t find anything for even -10°C or -20°C or -40°C.

I have an antidotal story from a friend of mine that owns a Tesla model three from last winter and it’s scary. He charges his car overnight in a heated garage and then commutes about 20 km to work in the morning and plugs his car in at work all day so that he can commute home about 20 km and park in a heated garage and charge his car all night again so it’s good to go in the morning. last winter he had 3/4 of a charge and he and his wife went to visit friends about 35 km away at -35°C for supper…. And after a couple of hours the commuted at home and damn near didn’t make it. That was 70 km round-trip on 3/4 of a charge and it was touch and go as to whether or not they were going to make it home.

That’s the reality of the prairies.
 

The_Foxer

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Imagine for a minute that it’s 2035. Imagine that ICE vehicles are a thing that is outlawed for any new sales. Filling stations are few and far between now.

People are forced to only buy EV’s, and then winter happens. Real winter, and it’s not Toronto/Vancouver winter, but Winnipeg/Regina/Edmonton and all rural surrounding areas winter.

Outside of the 1,000,000+ population areas were public transit really doesn’t work, and there isn’t any real greyhound or STC or regional bus lines that make any sense. Somebody in the country needs to drive an hour to the city to get groceries and a prescription and then get home in the winter (real world winter with -40°C). What happens?

Somebody drives their EV to work and their employer does not have somewhere for them to plug-in and they have to work for an eight or nine or 10 or 12 hour shift, and its actual real winter, and the EV has been sucking on its own nipples to try and keep its own battery warm for that time. Then they have to be able to get home so that they can repeat this the next day?

Imagine that the poor bastard above doesn’t have a single family separate dwelling with a garage but lives in an apartment building with an outside parking lot so they can’t heat their electric car and it’s batteries overnight while charging it so they only get a quarter of a charge that night maybe…. And it’s -30°C for a week or two or three straight.

I honestly looked last night for real world, actual real winter, EV battery degradation data, and all I could find was the same data set from England for winter conditions, showing the degradation from -1°C to -6 point some or another degrees Celsius…& that’s it. I couldn’t find anything for even -10°C or -20°C or -40°C.

I have an antidotal story from a friend of mine that owns a Tesla model three from last winter and it’s scary. He charges his car overnight in a heated garage and then commutes about 20 km to work in the morning and plugs his car in at work all day so that he can commute home about 20 km and park in a heated garage and charge his car all night again so it’s good to go in the morning. last winter he had 3/4 of a charge and he and his wife went to visit friends about 35 km away at -35°C for supper…. And after a couple of hours the commuted at home and damn near didn’t make it. That was 70 km round-trip on 3/4 of a charge and it was touch and go as to whether or not they were going to make it home.

That’s the reality of the prairies.
It's not just the prairies. Anywhere that gets below about -5 for more than a day or so will start to experience the same problems - and in some ways it's easier on the praries because you know it's going to happen and they'll figure out a cure. Like block heaters. But in some of the other areas where the temp doesn't drop that low all winter, just in short periods like the week the fraser valley just had, people could be rather surprised to discover it and get stranded very easily. And you can't just grab a gas can and top up if you run out.

I could see if they were saying plug in hybrids - that might work. But full ev's are impractical for so many reasons in much of Canada. Any decent sized metro they should be ok one way or another but that's it. So no - not three cities - but definitely not all cities/towns and for those just outside of cities it's an issue for full EV's as well.
 
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The_Foxer

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Its because of battery heaters that they drop. Without them it would be worse. Plug in half breeds dont have the heaters so you have to run the ICE to keep a charge on.
Sure - but that actually works. So plug in hybrids would make some sense in Candaa - you'd still massively cut emissions about 3/4 of the year and overall emissions would be radically lower. but you woudln't be as dependant on china for batteries, you wouldn't require massive charging infrastructure that we don't have, a lot of problems would be solved. But Pure EV's? I just don't see how they think that's a thing we can pull off in that time frame. Maybe in the future when battery tech improves.
 
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petros

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Sure - but that actually works. So plug in hybrids would make some sense in Candaa - you'd still massively cut emissions about 3/4 of the year and overall emissions would be radically lower. but you woudln't be as dependant on china for batteries, you wouldn't require massive charging infrastructure that we don't have, a lot of problems would be solved. But Pure EV's? I just don't see how they think that's a thing we can pull off in that time frame. Maybe in the future when battery tech improves.
Half breeds still have batteries from China, still use roadside chargers and still put out emissions whether running the engine or plugged in to a charger.
 

The_Foxer

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Half breeds still have batteries from China,
But don't rely on them as much and because they use far fewer you can also get enough batteries from elsewhere.
still use roadside chargers
Not really. that's what the gasoline part is for. You mostly plug them in at home. There's no NEED for roadside chargers, although i'm sure it would be nice if there were some here or there. But it's not necessary at all.

The vast majority of people commute to and from work and to pick up groceries and the kids. Most of those trips are less than 60 km round trip. So a plug in Hybrid with 125 km range will likely only use about half it's charge most days. On those rare cases where you've got longer to go or if you forgot to plug it in or something then the gas kicks in and you're fine without charging. But on average your actual gasoline consumption drops by about 75 - 90 percent over the year. So - no inconvenience of finding a charging station, and most of the emissions savings.

The idea is that if you run out of power when driving, your engine kicks in and charges your battery. So if there's no roadside charger no big deal.
and still put out emissions whether running the engine or plugged in to a charger.
No, no it doesn't put out emissions when it's plugged into a charger. At all.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that emissions are still created to create the power to charge them? That is true in some areas. In other areas not so much. BC, Quebec and the atlantics for example run almost entirely on hydro. No emissions. And, electrical generation facilities generally pollute less than a gas car engine. And of course we can improve and upgrade those over time - Alberta for example has made large investments in solar power and is looking at modular nukes to create power, and there's talk of expanding BC's grid to provide some of their energy needs.

It's a reasonable solution that addresses 90 percent of the issues that a true EV would address while avoiding 90 percent of the problems of an ev, It requires vastly fewer batteries so we're not entirely dependant on china. It reduces emissions without having to completely redo our power grid. They don't blow up as much. It's a much more practical solution given our technology today.
 

Taxslave2

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Governments in both the U.S. and Canada seem to have missed a critical piece of information required for everyone who wants to drive an EV. Our electrical system cannot support this.

What about this can't they understand? What is it that people can't understand? Brown outs? Black outs? Seriously? That's what we have to look forward to?
The whole electrical distribution system is beyond most people's ability comprehend. It seems the more time spent in a city, the dumber the greenie. They really don't know how food gets to skip the dishes, gas gets to their furnace, or what keeps the lights on. Worse, most of them don't care as long as it works. Lefty politicians will always do what they view as politically expedient, no matter how bad the idea.
 

petros

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But don't rely on them as much and because they use far fewer you can also get enough batteries from elsewhere.

Not really. that's what the gasoline part is for. You mostly plug them in at home. There's no NEED for roadside chargers, although i'm sure it would be nice if there were some here or there. But it's not necessary at all.

The vast majority of people commute to and from work and to pick up groceries and the kids. Most of those trips are less than 60 km round trip. So a plug in Hybrid with 125 km range will likely only use about half it's charge most days. On those rare cases where you've got longer to go or if you forgot to plug it in or something then the gas kicks in and you're fine without charging. But on average your actual gasoline consumption drops by about 75 - 90 percent over the year. So - no inconvenience of finding a charging station, and most of the emissions savings.

The idea is that if you run out of power when driving, your engine kicks in and charges your battery. So if there's no roadside charger no big deal.

No, no it doesn't put out emissions when it's plugged into a charger. At all.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that emissions are still created to create the power to charge them? That is true in some areas. In other areas not so much. BC, Quebec and the atlantics for example run almost entirely on hydro. No emissions. And, electrical generation facilities generally pollute less than a gas car engine. And of course we can improve and upgrade those over time - Alberta for example has made large investments in solar power and is looking at modular nukes to create power, and there's talk of expanding BC's grid to provide some of their energy needs.

It's a reasonable solution that addresses 90 percent of the issues that a true EV would address while avoiding 90 percent of the problems of an ev, It requires vastly fewer batteries so we're not entirely dependant on china. It reduces emissions without having to completely redo our power grid. They don't blow up as much. It's a much more practical solution given our technology today.
Batteries fron China are batteries from China. 25% less in a half breed or 100% in a Bolt its the same.

45Km can be 20KWh out of 24 hrs.
Thats not Sustainable. A half breed or a full EV need the same things, 240V, a heated garage and an occupation supplied 120V for a trickle charge just to keep batteries warm.

The charge drops are incredible with cold or hot temperatures. Its a leash.

Bullshit. Emissions arent regional on Federal turf. 61% of Canadian electricity is from hydro. If I live in Frozenmukluk NT needing diesel to charge my EV Im still charging with 61% hydro on a national average. If you live in BC you are still a consumer of nuclear, diesel, coal, natural gas, biomass, tidal, solar or fucking wind on a national scale.

When your engine cuts in using gasoline the entire premise of cutting emissions just shit the bed.

EVs and half breeds are 25% heavier. You though roads sucked now? In 2035 youll be wearing a kidney belt to survive Hwy 1.
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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It's not just the prairies. Anywhere that gets below about -5 for more than a day or so will start to experience the same problems
I think there’s going to be a BIG difference between -5°C and -35°C with respect to EV batteries…but try to find data about these batteries at -35°C or more for a week - and in some ways it's easier on the praries because you know it's going to happen and they'll figure out a cure. (???)

Oh, cool. Easier. Good times. “They’ll” (?) figure out a cure? “They’ll” who? Those imposing this bullying bullshit upon us? Politicians? The Free Market that isn’t being allowed in this EV situation?
Sure - in time. But not overnight. It's just not practical the way they're doing it. Capitalism works in a free market, not when gov't tips the scales in the market in one area. You can't "Mandate" the market sale of vehicles then hope that there won't be a ripple elsewhere.
The Free Market isn’t happening with EV’s.
New government regulations on zero-emission vehicles that will require manufacturers to ensure one-fifth of their cars, SUVs and trucks run on electricity by 2026, or pay a $20,000 per car penalty.

The government’s line is that it has to provide the regulatory lead to compel industry to make EVs available in Canada. It claims that mandates in provinces like British Columbia and Quebec have resulted in far greater uptake of electric vehicles. Fully electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles made up 7.2 per cent of sales in the first half of the year across the country but in B.C., they comprised 15 per cent of all car sales, while in Quebec the number was 11.4 per cent (it should be noted, both provinces have generous subsidies on offer to EV consumers, in addition to the $5,000 federal rebate).

Like block heaters. But in some of the other areas where the temp doesn't drop that low all winter, just in short periods like the week the fraser valley just had, people could be rather surprised to discover it and get stranded very easily. And you can't just grab a gas can and top up if you run out.
- and in some ways it's easier on the praries because you know it's going to happen and they'll figure out a cure. Like block heaters…
Like a heated garage so that the battery is in its optimal charging temperature of +23°C so that it can actually get a full charge without damaging the battery outside of this range shortening it’s lifespan & capacity at the same time?

That’ll be warmer than most European households this winter, saving the planet one heated garage at a time.