Proof That a Price on Carbon Works

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
It's revenue neutral, they reduced emissions and they are consistently one of the top economic performers.


"The carbon tax appears to have had an impact on greenhouse gas emissions from B.C., which according to the latest federal data were lower in 2013 than in 2005. However, the province’s emissions have inched up slowly since 2009."

 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
One thing that a carbon tax would alter: many cities would feel the pressure to lift restrictions on high-density developments. You can't raise the tax on carbon and then prevent high-density residential development next to the central business district. To due so would essentially force significant numbers of the population into poverty.

In short, a carbon tax in Canada can rise only gradually at no faster a rate than city infrastructure can adapt.

Canadian cities are not built for carbon efficiency,they're built for cars. And urban infrastructure does not change overnight.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
It's revenue neutral.

The income received would be offset by other tax reductions.

It's not a difficult concept.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Actually, this is a big problem in the Ottawa region, including Gatineau.

On the one hand, governments want to encourage us to leave our cars at home and walk, cycle, or ride to work instead. On the other hand, they have a plethora of bylaws preventing high-density development.

How are we ever to convince people to leave their cars at home when they can't live near work and transit service is pathetic due to buses catering to such a small population scattered over Canada's geographically-largest city!

You can't have it both ways.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
"The carbon tax appears to have had an impact on greenhouse gas emissions from B.C., which according to the latest federal data were lower in 2013 than in 2005. However, the province’s emissions have inched up slowly since 2009."


The reductions are based on targets that they met.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
Actually, this is a big problem in the Ottawa region, including Gatineau.

On the one hand, governments want to encourage us to leave our cars at home and walk, cycle, or ride to work instead. On the other hand, they have a plethora of bylaws preventing high-density development.

How are we ever to convince people to leave their cars at home when they can't live near work and transit service is pathetic due to buses catering to such a small population scattered over Canada's geographically-largest city!

You can't have it both ways.

Of course you can't have it both ways.

The whole point is to incentvize low carbon alternatives and if we don't make the effort, then you lose the reward from that incentive.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
It's revenue neutral.

The income received would be offset by other tax reductions.

It's not a difficult concept.

It's revenue neutral for the government, not the individual.

If you earn a high income and live in a small high-density town surrounded by farmland, and cycle to the grocery store, you obviously stand to benefit from lower income tax and a higher carbon tax.

If you earn a low income, live on the outskirts of a geographically-large low-density city, work downtown, live far from any shop, and own a gas-guzzler, a shift from income tax to a gas tax will hurt you.

Yes it's revenue neutral for the government, but only on the sense that the lower taxes one pays will be offset by the higher taxes another pays.

That doesn't mean I oppose a carbon tax though. I still support it because it would be more user-pay. Those who'd end up paying more would deserve to pay more. Why should the rest of us subsidize them when their lifestyle should be a luxury, not a privilege?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
revenue neutral means there is no incentive to reduce usage.

Again, when the government says revenue neutral, it means it only on a mass scale, not on an individual scale.

Plus, as people and cities adapt to the new reality, it would gradually become revenue negative as people plan to pay less.

On the plus side though, public transit would become more efficient and so depend less on subsidies and fewer highways would be needed as there would be fewer cars on the road.

So less revenue, but less expenditure too.

Of course you can't have it both ways.

The whole point is to incentvize low carbon alternatives and if we don't make the effort, then you lose the reward from that incentive.

That means that if you introduce a carbon tax, this would pressure cities to eliminate many of their anti-high-density-development bylaws or they would soon become unaffordable and people would move out of town or insist on higher wages, pushing inflation up.

I personally think putting such pressure on such cities would be a good thing by forcing them to give their heads a shake.

It would kill NIMBYism in a heartbeat when it comes to high-density development.

Honestly, geographically large low-density cities far from farmland would suffer the most from a carbon tax, while geographically small high-density towns surrounded by farmland would likely boom in such an environment due to lower income tax and GST combined with an already carbon efficient urban infrastructure.

A city like Ottawa would likely suffer more than any other city in Canada. Then again, that might be a good thing to smarten it up a bit.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
Of course it's revenue neutral for the government.

It's based on the budget.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
Ah, short-term thinking. Sure teaching a person to fish is more expensive on a yearly basis than just giving him a fish (extra education costs). On the flip side though, I'd rather pay more now to have the unemployed working and paying taxes next year than pay less now and support the unemployed for the rest of their lives. I prefer pay now, save later over save now, pay forever.


Well again... that's just not the Massachusetts model. Our welfare package is second only to Hawaii. Not working gets you a lower to middle class living here.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,415
14,308
113
Low Earth Orbit
It doesn't work like you think. You can't just hop in your vdub bus and drive to the country to stock up on bacon and cookies.