Transgender is a Mental Disorder

[Tonington]

Baloney.

Lol, no it's not. This is standard scientific practice Colpy. You state a hypothesis and test it. You test it on the most homogenous population you can, and then evaluate outcomes based on differences that we can control for. Would it help you if I simply called one of them the control group?

If you think it's OK to compare the treatment responses of a healthy athlete with no heart disease diagnosis, and someone that has some form of cardiovascular trauma, then you're not able to have this discussion.

Even if you could pin down the population of pre-operative transgenders, the stats would be so very skewed.

Yes, well that sometimes happens. We don't have the luxury of doing bad analysis because the population distribution isn't to our liking.

.......say if that population had a suicide rate of 50% more than those that completed the operation, the conclusion would be that the operation was an effective treatment, and THAT is BS

Lol, is it? You may not like the answer, but that is clearly the conclusion you have to draw from that.

I see your problem now, you call anything that you don't like or agree with BS, or skewed. See, to us practicing scientists, this means something different. Skewed means the population deviates from some assumed distribution. So, what does that tell you about the assumption?

..........as the rate of post operative suicides would STILL be 20 times the norm.

Nobody is denying that people like transgendered aren't at a higher risk of suicide Colpy. Your good doctor is saying however that the treatment is dangerous and ineffective, however he's not using good data to support his claims.

BTW, the John Hopkins Medical School is the second best on earth, only the Harvard Medical School is better.

Perhaps you should argue with them.

Ahh, appeal to authority. I have no problem with John Hopkins or Harvard Medical. But, no scientist worth one pound of lab reagent or more would ever accept results simply because it came from some institution...that's ridiculous.

I do have a problem with scientists who make claims in the popular press that they know damned well they would not get away with in the scientific publishing. You know, avoiding the self-correcting nature of science, by having their conclusions reviewed by people who know what skewed means. Scientific peers.

This discussion we're having is what the peer review process is designed for. It's clear you don't understand that.

You never hesitate to tell people who don't have a good grasp of history exactly that. I'm telling you that you don't have a good grasp of the scientific method.

 

[skookumchuck]

And of course Ton, you have a good grasp because you get paid for being a scientist. Nice try.

 

[Tonington]

And of course Ton, you have a good grasp because you get paid for being a scientist. Nice try.

No, instead of saying 'I'm a scientist, trust me', you know, I actually explained myself. :roll:

Colpy throwing scientific methods developed and used successfully over the last 4 centuries out the window:

"Controls, we don't need no stinking controls!"​

:lol: You guys are hilarious.

 

[Walter]

Colpy throwing scientific methods developed and used successfully over the last 4 centuries out the window:

Sounds like the AGW crowd.

 

[Tonington]

Sounds like the AGW crowd.

Lol, an article of faith among the illiterati.

 

[damngrumpy]

If someone is different don't forget to label them, when you can't fit them into
a quality label declare they have a mental condition. Can't we just leave them
alone? We don't find them acceptable because they make us uncomfortable
That is not a reason to label them they are who the are just accept the fact.
Some do develop mental issues and that's because we pressure them with labels
and silent abuse.
I find radical religious people fundamentalists like the Westburro Baptist Church
or ISIS to have a mental condition also but you don't have label them they label
themselves and carry guns.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

No, instead of saying 'I'm a scientist, trust me', you know, I actually explained myself. :roll:

Foolish Tonington. That's not scientific method. Scientific method is believing whatever the guy with the fanciest credentials says, or perhaps what the "consensus" of most of the guys with the fancy credentials are. Or, not to put too fine an edge on it, believing the guy who puts a pseudo-scientific gloss on your prejudices and arguing that he must be right coz he's got fancy paper on the wall.

All this forming of hypotheses and testing those hypotheses is just Galilean superstition. Appeal to authority is how you get to The Truth.

 

[JLM]

Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder. Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary in the Wall Street Journal, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

Makes perfect sense to me but what would an old "dinosaur" like me know about it. People are so f**Ked up nowadays that it is hard to say what is normal!

 

[damngrumpy]

All the people who think we're normal are crazy

 

[JLM]

All the people who think we're normal are crazy

\


And all the people who are crazy are normal!

 

[skookumchuck]

No, instead of saying 'I'm a scientist, trust me', you know, I actually explained myself. :roll:

Colpy throwing scientific methods developed and used successfully over the last 4 centuries out the window:

"Controls, we don't need no stinking controls!"​

:lol: You guys are hilarious.

I guess we got that way by believing all the scientists that worked for several drug industry greats.

 

[Tonington]

I guess we got that way by believing all the scientists that worked for several drug industry greats.

So it's a repetition thing. Hmm you might want to get that checked out. Seems problematic. I'll be sure to mention this funny effect at our next portfolio meeting however. Might be marketable. :roll:




Back on the subject, there's a newsletter from John Hopkins which was written in May of this year on the very subject.

A number of posters also noticed the same thing I did:

Susanna Boudrie says:

May 2, 2014 at 11:49 pm
Paul McHugh misinterprets Dr Cecilia Dehjne’s 2011 study to defend his ideology. However the study did not reach the conclusions he is falsely stating.​

Zoe Brain says:

May 4, 2014 at 12:46 am
The Swedish study did indeed show that post-op Trans people had more problems than the general population.

Similar studies on post-op cancer and heart patients show that morbidity and mortality is also increased compared to the general population. We cannot conclude that surgical treatment of cancer or heart patients is not useful, simply because outcome is not perfect. This is fairly basic science.​

And Dr. Dehjne showed up as well:

Cecilia Dhejne says:

May 4, 2014 at 4:12 pm
Some clarifications regarding a study that was published in 2011 by myself and co-workers. The study showed a three times elevated hazard ration for overall mortality compared to the general population for the period 1973-2003 (i.e. the time period in the study).The main causes of death were suicide, cardiovascular disease and smoke related cancer. If the study period was divided to before or after 1989 it was evident that mortality after 1989 was not significantly different from the general population. The study was not designed to answer the question if gender confirming surgery imposed specific risks or benefits. Therefore the findings cannot be to argue for or against endocrine or surgical treatment. As pointed out earlier, the same type of outcome are observed for other diseases and no one would argue against treatment of cancer, diabetes or bipolar disorder; all demonstrate an increased overall mortality. The suggested conclusion is to focus on improvement in care. Gender confirmation surgery and endocrine treatment only aims at amelioration of gender dysphoria. Many studies and a meta-analysis confirms a decrease in gender dysphoria complaints. Individuals with gender dysphoria may also suffer from depression, PTSD, and also consequences from gender related abuse, sexual trauma, discrimination, and hate crimes. I do think we have to address these questions on a societal levels as well as in in the health care system in order to improve general health among those who suffer from gender dysphoria.​

Apparently, the good Dr. McHugh also wrote in one of his books that his mind was made up before the studies had even been performed. Go figure.

 

[taxslave]

Who the hell wants to be normal? Sooooo boring.

 

[JLM]

Who the hell wants to be normal? Sooooo boring.

Still it beats the hell out being one of these "heads" I see running loose in public! -

 

[Colpy]

What you are missing is that we are not dealing with some physical condition..........

I would say that a suicide rate 20 times the norm indicates some mental problems. And I don't need a degree to reach that conclusion.

Simple as that.

 

[B00Mer]

What you are missing is that we are not dealing with some physical condition..........

I would say that a suicide rate 20 times the norm indicates some mental problems. And I don't need a degree to reach that conclusion.

Simple as that.

What'cha think Colpy, interested in one time stepping over to the wild side??

She may give you the ride of your life... :lol:

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

What you are missing is that we are not dealing with some physical condition..........

What you are missing, as Tonington has so clearly demonstrated, is science.

OK, you have a political opinion. Yay, you. Just don't call it science.

Funny part is you are doing EXACTLY what you accuse warmers of doing. . . trying to do science by popularity, authority, politics, anything but effective statistical and experimental protocols.

 

[Tonington]

What you are missing is that we are not dealing with some physical condition..........

I would say that a suicide rate 20 times the norm indicates some mental problems. And I don't need a degree to reach that conclusion.

Simple as that.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. I'm not denying that transgender people are at a higher risk of suicide than the overall rate for the entire population. You shouldn't need a degree for any of this discussion Colpy.

 

[Colpy]

 

[personal touch]

If electro-shock don't work, try beating it out of them.

how old are you?65, I would suspect,or more so some type of teaparty follower.