Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Are you saying you believe that God makes people, ill, blind, lame etc on purpose?
No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others. Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other. The current gathering of Jews in Israel is promoted as having God involved, if the Gentile Church is not also gathered the the Jews have not been gathered by God. The concept is easy to grasp, a bit harder to accept but is true none the less. The judgment if sinners means they are dead before any resurrection takes place that would literally fulfill the resurrection described in Eze:37.

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others. Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other.
. Israel or Judea? We know God doesn't think too highly of Judea (Jews) or he wouldn't have sent Jesus to proclaim a New Testament would he?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Jesus' message is clear as a bell and always has been to those who didn't waiver or follow a heretic.
Sure, assuming he was who he's claimed to be. But I don't buy that claim, as you'll see next.
I'm still waiting on your reasoning as to why God is a fiction.
Don't recall you asking for it, but it's pretty simple and I've said it here before: the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that he exists and has certain characteristics are insufficient to justify accepting the claim as true, so I don't. In the absence of positive evidence, doubt is the default position.
What do you call the energy that turns matter into living self-aware, conscious beings or makes a crystal grow?
Why would I need to call it anything but energy? As a geologist you should certainly know there are perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanations for crystal growth, and as for the other point, there's a lot we don't know yet about how that works, there's a lot we don't know about a lot of things, but saying god did it doesn't explain anything, it just avoids trying to find an explanation. End of the research program.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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I don't credit god with anything, I'm convinced he's entirely fictional, and one of the nastiest characters to be found in fiction anywhere.
What is you thoughts on the wreckage of the 737 in Russian and Flight 93 in terms of wreckage left behind? I see is the ultimate proof to 9/11 being nothing but a false flag operation committed by America on Americans and no fiction included.

Meaning you would prefer if He doesn't make an appearance in your town anytime soon.
There is no 'demand' that a person read and have faith trough that exercise. Proof is said to be available for about 3 1/2 years before any judgments take place and even then it is only about who is alive for the 1,000 year reign and who has to wait for the GWT before they are given that same reward. (gift)

If God says we should forgive people their sins at 70 x 7 times or 490 times. If God did less 'sins' in the OT are we to forgive Him? No it is up to the persons that He sinned against to forgive Him.. How many of those sins were done as a teaching tool for Christ and that He will use all those skills on the day the 7th trump sounds in the mission to eliminate sin and death from the earth once and for all times. The fire that burnt Sodom didn't solve any OT problem but it did allow Christ to have the skill to use that same fire to burn Satan's Babylon and send several angelic being into the fiery lake. All the ones God killed in the OT (including the ones that were drowned by the flood are gathered again and given life in the New Earth.` The (beheaded) for the word of God section in Re:20:4 even covers the resurrection of the 12 Tribes.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.


Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.

Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.

. Israel or Judea? We know God doesn't think too highly of Judea (Jews) or he wouldn't have sent Jesus to proclaim a New Testament would he?
The whole House of Israel.

Eze:37:16-17-19:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.

Judea had to exist and being born in that land made then a Jew, Judea ceased to be in 70AD so that is when the last Jews were born a Jew. The verse below applied to Gentile standing on the area that is calle Judea in the Bible, it is not a reference to any remannat of the 12 Tribes,

M't:24:15-17:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
119,287
14,653
113
Low Earth Orbit
Sure, assuming he was who he's claimed to be. But I don't buy that claim, as you'll see next. Don't recall you asking for it, but it's pretty simple and I've said it here before: the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that he exists and has certain characteristics are insufficient to justify accepting the claim as true, so I don't. In the absence of positive evidence, doubt is the default position.Why would I need to call it anything but energy? As a geologist you should certainly know there are perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanations for crystal growth, and as for the other point, there's a lot we don't know yet about how that works, there's a lot we don't know about a lot of things, but saying god did it doesn't explain anything, it just avoids trying to find an explanation. End of the research program.
You have definitive proof Jesus wasn't who he claimed to be or is it based on
What makes you believe it's fiction?
Gibbs couldn't nail the how and why, only approximations and potentials of the growth of crystals.

From Laplace to Einstein to Planck to Heisenberg to Hawking are all baffled at randomness and probabilities.

Without the consciousness of the observer there is nothing is there? How does the mind pull it all together and why?

Einstein said it best "God doesn't play dice".
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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The word blind in scriptural allegory does not mean physically blind but does mean ignorant, without understanding,not illuminated.
Of course the sins of the fathers follow the children, poverty begets poverty, pride begets pride, mistakes are replicated ignorance is passed on. None of the old scriptures taken literally will get you anywhere but kneeling before a false idol. AMEN
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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No, I'm saying He can't correct it for some and not include all others.
yet apparently, he did.


Israel is going to be resurrected to their full strength, on that same day the Gentile Church is also given the same reward so you cannot have one without the other. The current gathering of Jews in Israel is promoted as having God involved, if the Gentile Church is not also gathered the the Jews have not been gathered by God. The concept is easy to grasp, a bit harder to accept but is true none the less. The judgment if sinners means they are dead before any resurrection takes place that would literally fulfill the resurrection described in Eze:37.
say you such as you believe

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
yes but my God is different, I know him on a personal basis and this that you quote is not him.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
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Red Deer AB
yet apparently, he did.


say you such as you believe

yes but my God is different, I know him on a personal basis and this that you quote is not him.
Under the signs following rule, healed of an infliction yet not spared from the grave. It was done to show the person healing people was sent by God, it was not a reward for righteous living.

M'r:16:17-18:
And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover
.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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Under the signs following rule, healed of an infliction yet not spared from the grave. It was done to show the person healing people was sent by God, it was not a reward for righteous living.
there is no reward via God for living righteously other than drawing to us what we put out...that is the law of the universe, thus it is the law of what you call God.

Christ also tells us that as we believe so shall it be done and we are capable of doing greater than he did, he told us this.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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You get to experience the 1,000 years events, no all would want to experience Satan after the 1,000 years so God leaves their resurrection until after that is done.

Did He give you the time frame of as soon as you read a few verses or is it after He is around to give you further instruction?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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You get to experience the 1,000 years events, no all would want to experience Satan after the 1,000 years so God leaves their resurrection until after that is done.

Did He give you the time frame of as soon as you read a few verses or is it after He is around to give you further instruction?
Sorry, but to quote Lewis Black, "the god of the Jews was a prick." Why? Because they were 10 hairs short of being baboons and needed rules to straighten them out. The OT was written to scare them into submission. That is why it is irrelevant today. They are no longer baboons.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
17,135
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48
You get to experience the 1,000 years events, no all would want to experience Satan after the 1,000 years so God leaves their resurrection until after that is done.

Did He give you the time frame of as soon as you read a few verses or is it after He is around to give you further instruction?
I don't come from a Christian perspective MHz, so I have no idea about your question. In the end things will likely be as each of us perceives them, no?
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Sorry, but to quote Lewis Black, "the god of the Jews was a prick." Why? Because they were 10 hairs short of being baboons and needed rules to straighten them out. The OT was written to scare them into submission. That is why it is irrelevant today. They are no longer baboons.
They were 'slaves' in Egypt for 430 years, I'm sure they were well acquainted with submission before the exodus and the Torah came along.

I don't come from a Christian perspective MHz, so I have no idea about your question. In the end things will likely be as each of us perceives them, no?
No, as one of us perceives it and I don't think you have a clear emough understanding to make an informed choice at the moment.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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The creator was correct- And he also loves hockey.
Hockey is barbaric and played by Neanderthals. God loves barbaric Neanderthals?

No, as one of us perceives it and I don't think you have a clear emough understanding to make an informed choice at the moment.
And who are you to judge that?

Has all your mental masturbation over the meaning of the bible given you hairy palms?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
119,287
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Low Earth Orbit
They were 'slaves' in Egypt for 430 years, I'm sure they were well acquainted with submission before the exodus and the Torah came along.


No, as one of us perceives it and I don't think you have a clear emough understanding to make an informed choice at the moment.

slaves? I,venever heard of Jewish labourer. Have you?

What is you thoughts on the wreckage of the 737 in Russian and Flight 93 in terms of wreckage left behind? I see is the ultimate proof to 9/11 being nothing but a false flag operation committed by America on Americans and no fiction included.

Meaning you would prefer if He doesn't make an appearance in your town anytime soon.
There is no 'demand' that a person read and have faith trough that exercise. Proof is said to be available for about 3 1/2 years before any judgments take place and even then it is only about who is alive for the 1,000 year reign and who has to wait for the GWT before they are given that same reward. (gift)

If God says we should forgive people their sins at 70 x 7 times or 490 times. If God did less 'sins' in the OT are we to forgive Him? No it is up to the persons that He sinned against to forgive Him.. How many of those sins were done as a teaching tool for Christ and that He will use all those skills on the day the 7th trump sounds in the mission to eliminate sin and death from the earth once and for all times. The fire that burnt Sodom didn't solve any OT problem but it did allow Christ to have the skill to use that same fire to burn Satan's Babylon and send several angelic being into the fiery lake. All the ones God killed in the OT (including the ones that were drowned by the flood are gathered again and given life in the New Earth.` The (beheaded) for the word of God section in Re:20:4 even covers the resurrection of the 12 Tribes.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.


Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.

Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.


The whole House of Israel.

Eze:37:16-17-19:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.

Judea had to exist and being born in that land made then a Jew, Judea ceased to be in 70AD so that is when the last Jews were born a Jew. The verse below applied to Gentile standing on the area that is calle Judea in the Bible, it is not a reference to any remannat of the 12 Tribes,

M't:24:15-17:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Read Kings sometime, there is no love between Israel and Judea
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
They were 'slaves' in Egypt for 430 years, I'm sure they were well acquainted with submission before the exodus and the Torah came along.


No, as one of us perceives it and I don't think you have a clear emough understanding to make an informed choice at the moment.

They were the Hyksos and they ruled and ruined Eygpt, they were well aquainted with usary even then they played the victim.


Israel was not a country, it was never a country, it is not now a country, Israel is a station or degree of the illuminated and when you've been illuminated you know and remember how the primal con works.

Eden was the fall to flesh the commitment to matter the test of souls in hell. You and I are students of matter, souls consigned to the trials and tribulations of the carnal state and hounded and hopefully enlightened by the temptations of the beastly you. A contest between the beastly you and the saintly you. And that's all it's about.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
They were the Hyksos and they ruled and ruined Eygpt, they were well aquainted with usary even then they played the victim.


Israel was not a country, it was never a country, it is not now a country, Israel is a station or degree of the illuminated and when you've been illuminated you know and remember how the primal con works.

Eden was the fall to flesh the commitment to matter the test of souls in hell. You and I are students of matter, souls consigned to the trials and tribulations of the carnal state hounded hardened by the temptations of the beastly you.
What kinda beast are you?

I'm more of a holographic universe kinda guy. You are all in my dream and I have no idea why.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
I am the material me beast, flesh and blood, used flesh and blood, nearly worn out flesh and blood, that reminds me, I have cannabis out in the lab. The holographic you is the spiritual you the sum of your mind quickened by the great super conscious engineer of all, ain't you?
That's where we get all the ideas I figure. There's nothing new under any suns, never can be, everything that can be already is, especially ideas. Oh look at the clock, time , bedtime, must smoke/worship first, maybe I'll sleep with a little help from my green spirit stuff. Arthritis is bothering me something awful last few months Cliffy, I'm getting tired of the fleshy experience everything squeaks and crunches in my joints and my muscles hurt all the time and there's five months of frozen hell to get through, a barometric nightmare. How's that for moaning eh, time to sleep, goodnight Cliffy.