Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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Well, I suppose it will matter if a person manages to have happiness on earth only to find the path they led will bring them to eternal ruins. I have no doubt there are many immoral, unethical people that are happy as clams...so to speak. So rather than the goal be indiviual happiness, I think we need to seek the truth. Which may certainly have happiness as an integral part.
I guess I do not really believe it possible to be happy other than momentarily. At least I am not but then that has never been my goal. I view happiness as a bi-product of peace of mind. Happiness is fleeting but peace of mind is lasting and can be felt even in times of great distress and turmoil...it comes from stability of character.

I do not believe that people who are immoral and unethical can be happy, it's not possible. Everyone's truth is different cj I think that stability of character can only come when one has found their truth or at least their road which leads them forward to their truth. Truth evolves and changes as we grow. It has to because as we grow and expand ourselves our capacity to understand even bigger truths expands. It's like wisdom, wisdom is won with scars, so is truth.

So there we agree absolutely.
 

MHz

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But what if my god is different from your god?
I'm quite comfortable with the God of the Holy Bible. You aren't, you sure you aren't another version of the Job incident but you blame God for things that He isn't inflicting on your life?
 

Cliffy

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I'm quite comfortable with the God of the Holy Bible. You aren't, you sure you aren't another version of the Job incident but you blame God for things that He isn't inflicting on your life?
No. I just don't believe in that god. my god is quite gentle and loving and doesn't punish anybody because they don't worship at his feet.
 

Spade

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No, Goober. Judaism doesn't.

"Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion." Judaism 101

Hindus don't. Buddhists don't. And, I an sure you don't.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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No, Goober. Judaism doesn't.

"Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion." Judaism 101

Hindus don't. Buddhists don't. And, I an sure you don't.
I do sort of...what happens to people who are totally messed and need to work out huge issues Spade?
 

MHz

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No. I just don't believe in that god. my god is quite gentle and loving and doesn't punish anybody because they don't worship at his feet.
What's he done for you? What did God actually do to you, nothing, immoral persons pretending to be Christians unless you have some foundation that they were following some doctrine that is written down.

Considering the view of anybody who believes, and loves, the God in the whole Bible most people would be tempted to deny God on this concept alone.

Joh:12:42:
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him,
lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
 
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Sal

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What's he done for you? What did God actually do to you, nothing, immoral persons pretending to be Christians unless you have some foundation that they were following some doctrine that is written down.
it's not God that's the problem here MHz, it's man and his misinterpretation of everything in order to gain power and control over other people's lives...that is not god's will it is man's corrupt nature
 

MHz

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No, Goober. Judaism doesn't.

"Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion." Judaism 101

Hindus don't. Buddhists don't. And, I an sure you don't.
Go ahead and explain what these verses really mean.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might; for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job:14:12-14:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

it's not God that's the problem here MHz, it's man and his misinterpretation of everything in order to gain power and control over other people's lives...that is not god's will it is man's corrupt nature
Eve didn't temp Satan not did man teach thge fallen angels all about the varios sins the the law in Re:21 covers.
 

Sal

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Eve didn't temp Satan not did man teach thge fallen angels all about the varios sins the the law in Re:21 covers.
Sorry MHz, but I have no idea what you are talking about here nor the meaning of it so I can't address it.
 

Spade

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I do sort of...what happens to people who are totally messed and need to work out huge issues Spade?

Infinite torture forever simply doesn't cut it for a Gawd of infinite love. Even if a son of a bitch keys your car, it ain't gonna happen.
The Shoah, the horror inflicted by a Christian nation, was finite.
The honest man lives to correct the ills on Earth and puts his faith neither in seventy-two virgins nor cloudy harp concerts.
 

MHz

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Ge:3 says the serpent (Satan) was the one that brought corruption into the world, that was followed by angels taking women in marriage. The grief God felt in Ge:6 was for what fallen angels were teaching men.

Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and *****mongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

The book of Enoch is online and it gives the details of which angels taught their children and the giants (people with 24 fingers and toes) were the ones trying to kill off all the 5 fingered people. If that had not been happening the flood would never of happened. It took 10,000 Holy Angels to put the fallen angels in the Pit during the flood. When Enoch mentioned it it was a prophecy, when Moses mentioned it it was in the past.

Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

If it is confusing that is because I skip a few things and just do the highlights, there is a lot more references to the full understanding that results in accepting any doctrine. Just going over the book of Jude give a clearer understanding what was going before the flood.
 

Sal

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Infinite torture forever simply doesn't cut it for a Gawd of infinite love. Even if a son of a bitch keys your car, it ain't gonna happen.
The Shoah, the horror inflicted by a Christian nation, was finite.
The honest man lives to correct the ills on Earth and puts his faith neither in seventy-two virgins nor cloudy harp concerts.
yeah I wasn't really thinking of hell fire in the Christian sense or the eternity bit since eternity for sins committed during a limited life is ridiculous ... but I do believe we pay for our errs there's no free ticket so what how do you believe we pay for our errors?
 

MHz

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Infinite torture forever simply doesn't cut it for a Gawd of infinite love. Even if a son of a bitch keys your car, it ain't gonna happen.
The Shoah, the horror inflicted by a Christian nation, was finite.
The honest man lives to correct the ills on Earth and puts his faith neither in seventy-two virgins nor cloudy harp concerts.
Pretty funny and pretty delusional about what the Bible promotes. The only ones sent to hell are the 2/3 that are ready for war on the same day the 7th trump sounds. If you are not in that group and you die before that day you are fast asleep so if you are a believer you get resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 years, if you are not a believer you still sleep so from death to life is like a blink of the eyes and deat (sleeping or in hell covers all sins so all are sinless when the Great White Throne happens. The verses below belong to the GWT event and it gives no indication that there is more punishment coming. The great Tribulation is what the ones that go to hell experience.

Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

Re:7:9-17:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
Amen.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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Pretty funny and pretty delusional about what the Bible promotes. The only ones sent to hell are the 2/3 that are ready for war on the same day the 7th trump sounds. If you are not in that group and you die before that day you are fast asleep so if you are a believer you get resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 years, if you are not a believer you still sleep so from death to life is like a blink of the eyes and deat (sleeping or in hell covers all sins so all are sinless when the Great White Throne happens. The verses below belong to the GWT event and it gives no indication that there is more punishment coming. The great Tribulation is what the ones that go to hell experience.

Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

Re:7:9-17:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
Amen.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
I actually like that better than any other Christian belief about hell that I have encountered. Interesting.
 

MHz

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yeah I wasn't really thinking of hell fire in the Christian sense or the eternity bit since eternity for sins committed during a limited life is ridiculous ... but I do believe we pay for our errs there's no free ticket so what how do you believe we pay for our errors?
That's good because the Bible doesn't promote that, the ones sent to hell are the ones mocking Lucifer (Satan) in Isa:65, those men are also the ones in the verses below and they are the ones building house in the New Earth, Jerusalem in this chapter is New Jerusalem and all the ones alive for the 1,000 years are in the city, it is the ones that are resurrected at the GWT that are in that lasy part of the chapter, actually the ones called 'the rest' are who that whole chapter is about.

Isa:65:12-15:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
 

cj44

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Sep 18, 2013
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MHZ: Instead of delving into the when and how regarding the second coming, would it not be better to focus on the essential teaching of Jesus. FAITH. I think if we try to go deep and answer all the questions we end up with a hot mangled theological mess. We will not know the hour or day. And thus far even Christiandom has not concluded a premillenial or postmillenial course of events. Methinks we thinks too much. I burned out a good chunk of my grey matter reading your last post.