Palestinian - Why Mahmoud Abbas’s U.N. statehood bid is great for Israel -- and the U

[earth_as_one]

That's the easy part; 2 options really:

1. Keep reelecting Hamas under the guise of a democratic process and despite it being contrary to the best interests of the PA; lean on the 'democratic process' as the excuse (kinda like Quebec and separation).
2. The PA can wring their hands and rail to the heavens every time that missiles are lobbed into Israel - while secretly being highly satisfied with the result.

Those stupid Palestinians. They obviously have no idea that democracy is about electing a corrupt enemy collaborator who represents his own self interests who has been proven willing to sell out fellow Palestinians out for a small amount of money and limited amount of power.

From the Isrealie perspective, why would they agree to negotiations unless the Palestinians actually were to agree to anything. They've already tried mulitple times to no affect. They gave up Gaza in hopes it would bring peace. That really succeeded didn't it? Abbas may be an honerable man, but he is the lone wolf so to speak. Hamas has no intention of agreeing to ANYTHING without completely destroying Israel. Until the Palestinians themselves are made aware of what is happening and revolt (not unlike Egypt), nothing will change and there is nothing that Isreal can do to make things better. It takes two to tangle and it seems the world wants Isreal to give everything and the Palestinians nothing. Not gonna happen.

JMHO

I completely understand your ignorance. You obviously believe what our MSM has told us about how generous the Israelis have been. Who wouldn't want to exchange arable land and aquifers for a smaller amount of desert and toxic waste dumps? That would be like trading in your brand new Lamborghini for a used Lada. Of course the Lada dealer will tell you what a generous deal you are getting. You can trust a used car dealer right? They are at least as trustworthy as Israeli politicians and our MSM who claim that Palestinians have refused generous Israeli peace offers. Listening to the Palestinian viewpoint would be completely unnecessary to have an informed opinion.

Seriously, you should read the details of those "generous" deals Israel offered Palestinians:
The Myth of the Generous Offer

Abbas an "honorable man"... what planet are you from? Have you ever heard of the Palestinian papers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers


You and CM should read my previous post, because neither of you have a clue about who is screwing over the Palestinian people. That would be Israel, the US and Palestinian dictator Abbas.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/i...estinian-why-mahmoud-abbas-s.html#post1680861

Abbas's only chance of having any legitimacy in the eyes of Palestinians is if his cooperation with the Israelis and the Americans led to full Palestinian statehood, instead of just an increase in his personal wealth and more arms for his mercenaries to defend him from angry Palestinian mobs who view Abbas as an enemy collaborator.

 

[MHz]

As for Hamas, that's a different matter. As for giving up Gaza though, that's like the Uk giving Hong Kong back to China, or more like giving part of it back.

Steal it in the beginning and then get a big white hat because you give a few scraps back? Lets plot the map(UN 181) down on gOOgle earth and see how much of the area that is controlled has a field or a house or an industry or anything that has value. The only rule used to transfer the land was the rule of the gun. This is one case where contracts should be the 'rule' or both sides should be given ability to fight

 

[earth_as_one]

I agree with this Jewish Canadian's viewpoint:

Baird isn't seeing whole picture in Mideast (with video)

David Lorge Parnas's should be recognized for his courage to stand up for Jews across Canada who oppose the Harper government's support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity and support universal freedom and justice for everyone... including Palestinians who suffer Israeli oppression and injustice.

I also agree with this comment:

David Lorge Parnas is to be heartily congratulated for having the courage of his convictions in condemning Israel's policies toward the Palestinian people and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird's support of those repressive policies. Parnas' commentary displays a prophet-like wisdom.

Progressive and secular Jews in Canada and Ottawa have been far too timid in voicing their objection to Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories. We have allowed ourselves and our children to be intimidated and bullied into silence in our synagogues, temples and schools by the right-wing Jewish Zionist establishment, which sycophantically supports Israel and its reactionary policies. It is time to fight back and speak out.

The Jewish community is highly diversified in terms of its religious practices, politics and support of Israel. It is a myth to suggest the Jewish community is monolithic in its views on anything. Politicians, and the media too, must come to terms with the fact that the Zionist establishment does not speak for everyone within the Jewish community.

The Zionist establishment in Ottawa has, I believe, done its best to silence criticism of Israel, by attempting to impose a rigid political uniformity and discipline, to silence dissent. It is time for those Jews who disagree with Israel's policies toward the Palestinians to speak out publicly against them so that politicians hear us. Silence is complicity.

Time to speak out

 

[MHz]

That's the easy part; 2 options really:

1. Keep reelecting Hamas under the guise of a democratic process and despite it being contrary to the best interests of the PA; lean on the 'democratic process' as the excuse (kinda like Quebec and separation).
2. The PA can wring their hands and rail to the heavens every time that missiles are lobbed into Israel - while secretly being highly satisfied with the result.

Give them some batteries and the new ones can have guidance systems so it is military only that gets targeted, that should mean Israel lift the mandatory join rule (with no punishment), watch the numbers drop to zero, not because they are afraid but because war is a ****ing waste of time for both sides.

Lets put all of Quebec under the same conditions that came into place when PM Trudeau delcared part of the Province under Martial Law. Would the government that let that continue for 20 years get voted out at the first election? (when the gov itself is living the lifestyle of the rich and famous)

Contrary to your best interests. and that interest rates as zero unless you move there or would you like somebody in \NK to decide where you should live and work?

 

[captain morgan]

Those stupid Palestinians. They obviously have no idea that democracy is about electing a corrupt enemy collaborator who represents his own self interests who has been proven willing to sell out fellow Palestinians out for a small amount of money and limited amount of power.

What exactly does this mean?.. Is this just a diversion from the point I brought up?

I completely understand your ignorance. You obviously believe what our MSM has told us about how generous the Israelis have been.

Fun Fact for ya EAO: Democracy comes with responsibilities

Who wouldn't want to exchange arable land and aquifers for a smaller amount of desert and toxic waste dumps?

Spare me please.. That land was a wasteland before the Israelis developed the aquifers and put in the effort to grow crops.

That would be like trading in your brand new Lamborghini for a used Lada. Of course the Lada dealer will tell you what a generous deal you are getting.

Palestine can't afford a Lada let alone a Lamborghini. Your comment is a simple and sad argument supporting entitlement

You can trust a used car dealer right?

When you can't afford to buy a car, it really doesn't matter what the salesman says

You and CM should read my previous post, because neither of you have a clue about who is screwing over the Palestinian people. That would be Israel, the US and Palestinian dictator Abbas.

Exchange the word 'post' for propaganda... That ought to give you an idea of the force that I see in your selective offerings

 

[MHz]

I agree with this Jewish Canadian's viewpoint:

Baird isn't seeing whole picture in Mideast (with video)

David Lorge Parnas's should be recognized for his courage to stand up for Jews across Canada who oppose the Harper government's support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity and support universal freedom and justice for everyone... including Palestinians who suffer Israeli oppression and injustice.

I also agree with this comment:

David Lorge Parnas is to be heartily congratulated for having the courage of his convictions in condemning Israel's policies toward the Palestinian people and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird's support of those repressive policies. Parnas' commentary displays a prophet-like wisdom.

Progressive and secular Jews in Canada and Ottawa have been far too timid in voicing their objection to Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories. We have allowed ourselves and our children to be intimidated and bullied into silence in our synagogues, temples and schools by the right-wing Jewish Zionist establishment, which sycophantically supports Israel and its reactionary policies. It is time to fight back and speak out.

The Jewish community is highly diversified in terms of its religious practices, politics and support of Israel. It is a myth to suggest the Jewish community is monolithic in its views on anything. Politicians, and the media too, must come to terms with the fact that the Zionist establishment does not speak for everyone within the Jewish community.

The Zionist establishment in Ottawa has, I believe, done its best to silence criticism of Israel, by attempting to impose a rigid political uniformity and discipline, to silence dissent. It is time for those Jews who disagree with Israel's policies toward the Palestinians to speak out publicly against them so that politicians hear us. Silence is complicity.

Time to speak out

Maybe it is what the rats do when the ship is sinking. Doe he have any published views on Judge Goldstone or 'cast lead'.?

"Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird painted an oversimplified picture of the situation in Gaza.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/B...t+with+video/7608604/story.html#ixzz2Dou6j8qV"
​

 

[earth_as_one]

What exactly does this mean?.. Is this just a diversion from the point I brought up?

Fun Fact for ya EAO: Democracy comes with responsibilities

Spare me please.. That land was a wasteland before the Israelis developed the aquifers and put in the effort to grow crops.

Palestine can't afford a Lada let alone a Lamborghini. Your comment is a simple and sad argument supporting entitlement

When you can't afford to buy a car, it really doesn't matter what the salesman says

Exchange the word 'post' fro propaganda... That ought to give you an idea of the force that I see in your selective offerings

Please take a moment to inform yourself on the facts:

Only Israeli politicians, their supporters and ignorant people would describe trading arable land and aquifers in exchange for a small amount of desert and toxic waste dumps as "generous".

Read the details about What Israel really offered and its obvious that if Arafat had agreed, he'd have been subject to international ridicule. The offer was so bad, that if he did agree, he probably would have been assassinated by his own body guards.
The Myth of the Generous Offer

Regarding the last Palestinian election, you should also inform yourself about what really happened.

The Gaza Bombshell
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
The Gaza Bombshell | Vanity Fair

Regarding the myth that the Palestinians were nomadic camel jockeys and that the region was a barren land until the Zionists made it bloom. Complete fabrication. The Palestinians were already farming all of the arable land. Not only was this area developed farmland before the Zionists showed up, Palestinian farmers were among the most productive in the world:

In 1891, a Zionist of the first hour, Asher Ginzberg (under the pseudonym Ahad Ha'am, "one of the people"), wrote after a visit to Palestine:

"We abroad are accustomed to believe that Palestine nowadays is almost entirely desolate; a barren dessert where anyone can buy land to his hearts content. In fact, that is not so. All over the country it is hard to find arable land that is not cultivated."

In reality, before the Zionists came to Palestine, the "Bedouin" (arable farmers) exported 30 million tons of wheat per year; the area of Arab-owned orchards trebled between 1921 and 1942; groves of oranges and other citrus groves multiplied seventy fold between 1922 and 1947; and the production of vegetables was in 1938 ten times what it had been in 1922.

To take only the example of citrus fruit, The PEEL Report, presented to the British Parliament by the Secretary of State for Colonies in July 1937, and basing itself on the rapid growth of the orange-groves in Palestine, estimated that of the 30 million cases of oranges by which world production was expected to increase in the following 10 years, the producers and exporters would be as follows:

- Palestine: 15,000,000

- U.S.A: 7,000,000

- Spain: 5.000,000

- Other countries (Cyprus, Egypt, Algeria etc): 3,000,000

This "projection" and the data can be found in the PEEL REPORT, Chapter 8, paragraph 19, PG.214.

If we take an account of the progress of agriculture in all countries during the last 50 years, and especially of the incredible amount of "AID" received by Israel from outside, it becomes clear that, in this field, there is no "miracle of Israel."

The myth of the Jews make the desert bloom (by Abdul Kader Suliman) - Media Monitors Network

 

[petros]

More likely the Harper government's position on Israel is influenced by individual Zionists and Zionist groups with power and money.

Sorry dude but I can't buy that one with Keebeck being a pain in the *** and a bucket full of First Nation that haven't signed treaties or are negotiating land claims.

Even not voting at the UN would have him pegged as somebody that can't be worked with.

 

[MHz]

Fun Fact for ya EAO: Democracy comes with responsibilities

I notice how fast Hezbollah was recognized as the 'democratic government' and just how fast the STL was benched by the 'only court not influenced by politics'. lol

Spare me please.. That land was a wasteland before the Israelis developed the aquifers and put in the effort to grow crops.

So if even one scrap of paper can be found and dated to before the action the the action would have been for those things that just happened to 'fall into your hands' The whole Golan Heights being 1 of the areas in question. Britain had control of the area for 30 years and a deal with the Arabs to give it to them to develop, that never got off the ground so the dusty conditions can bet put at the Brits feet rather than the Arabs.

Palestine can't afford a Lada let alone a Lamborghini. Your comment is a simple and sad argument supporting entitlement

What a ****ing joke, OPEC are their cousins and Jerusalem is a Holy City, they would have 10x the money the Jews have gotten through gifts and compensation payments. The other Arabs quit sending money when Israel took over the bank accounts, another war crime.

When you can't afford to buy a car, it really doesn't matter what the salesman says

Why even shop where the only quality stuff is on the banned list anyway. A prudent shopper goes to all the lots before making a decision. We aren't given that choice, we buy what NATO tells us to buy

 

[captain morgan]

So if even one scrap of paper can be found and dated to before the action the the action would have been for those things that just happened to 'fall into your hands' The whole Golan Heights being 1 of the areas in question. Britain had control of the area for 30 years and a deal with the Arabs to give it to them to develop, that never got off the ground so the dusty conditions can bet put at the Brits feet rather than the Arabs.

Didn't the Israelis capture the Golan Heights during the 6 Day war?

Sucks to be the loser in a conflict, especially when you were the aggressor to begin with.

What a ****ing joke, OPEC are their cousins and Jerusalem is a Holy City, they would have 10x the money the Jews have gotten through gifts and compensation payments. The other Arabs quit sending money when Israel took over the bank accounts, another war crime.

I see.. So your answer is to begging for crumbs at someone else's table instead.

Why even shop where the only quality stuff is on the banned list anyway. A prudent shopper goes to all the lots before making a decision. We aren't given that choice, we buy what NATO tells us to buy

Quality stuff like bomb making supplies and batteries for electric wheel chairs?

 

[MHz]

Didn't the Israelis capture the Golan Heights during the 6 Day war?

6 Day War Israel Palestine pt2 of 2 1967 Arab Israeli War - YouTube

It is a war crime to make money off an area considered to be 'occupied territory'. If the post invasion had plans is place to use the land productively then it was a war of naked aggression with land and resourses as the prime objective.

Sucks to be the loser in a conflict, especially when you were the aggressor to begin with.

Proving that 'your side' are liars as well as 'bullies'.
Gaza survive the invasion and the 20 year military occupation that followed. All that undone on the 1st vote in decades, a collective WTF from the Rothschild stooges. Some things even Master Card can't but. Like the reservation sitting on top of a lot of valuable natural resources.

I see.. So your answer is to begging for crumbs at someone else's table instead.

Compa5red to what they were originally promised it is nothing to what they actually received, today that is breaking a contract, I'm suggesting Gaza do some history on how these ****ers write contracts with all the loop-holes helping just them. Cuba could train medics and Venezuela start the legal review as far as contracts with the 'international community' as dictated by closed door meetings, no use arguing Civil Law in a court designed to only hear Admiralty Law arguments.

You are in fair of full disclosure for Gaza before they sign on the dotted line right?

Quality stuff like bomb making supplies and batteries for electric wheel chairs?

Never happy, firs you bitch that the targeting is too 'random' then you bitch that they improve the aim so the ones targeted with pin-point accuracy, all still without a war-head, how about a blow up stripper made of durable vinyl made from all the umbrellas imported from India. Probably even find something wrong with that.

How many times does Gaza have to back Israel into the same old corner before Israel admits they can never defeat them and lays down it's arms in the first act of total surrender?? (drips with ironic sarcasm)

Back to Syria, high ground is now an eye in the sky so the area ceases to hold any military advantage other than providing a place for 'sitting ducks', so no justification for any occupation by Israel or Israeli interests and the field modifications should be part of a plan based on who shares the same resources. How much of the profit taken from the land is given to the Syrians that were displaced 'by military aggression.

 

[earth_as_one]

Didn't the Israelis capture the Golan Heights during the 6 Day war?

Sucks to be the loser in a conflict, especially when you were the aggressor to begin with.




I see.. So your answer is to begging for crumbs at someone else's table instead.



Quality stuff like bomb making supplies and batteries for electric wheel chairs?

What? Who started the 6 day war again????

Please explain how an Israeli surprise attack against the Egyptian air force did not start the 6 day war?

...On May 23, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.”

In an document entitled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR struck first.”

Additionally, the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive, stating that “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period” (emphasis added).

Although the Arabs had numerical superiority in terms of military hardware, “Nonetheless, the IDF [Israeli Defense Force] maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations.”

...Four days before Israel’s attack on Egypt, Helms met with a senior Israeli official who expressed Israel’s intent to go to war, and that the only reason it hadn’t already struck was because of efforts by the Johnson administration to restrain both sides to prevent a violent conflict.

“Helms interpreted the remarks as suggesting that Israel would attack very soon”, writes Robarge. He reported to Johnson “that Israel probably would start a war within a few days.”

“Helms was awakened at 3:00 in the morning on 5 June by a call from the CIA Operations Center”, which had received the report “that Israel had launched its attack” and that, contrary to Israel’s claims that Egypt had been the aggressor, Israel had fired first....

Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’ | Foreign Policy Journal


Israel's first and most critical move was a surprise attack on the Egyptian Air Force. Egypt had by far the largest and the most modern of all the Arab air forces, consisting of about 420 combat aircraft,[87] all of them Soviet-built and with a heavy quota of top-of-the line MiG-21 capable of attaining Mach 2 speed. Initially, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.[h]

Of particular concern to the Israelis were the 30 Tu-16 "Badger" medium bombers, capable of inflicting heavy damage on Israeli military and civilian centers.[88] On June 5 at 7:45 Israeli time, as civil defense sirens sounded all over Israel, the IAF launched Operation Focus (Moked). All but 12 of its nearly 200 operational jets[89] left the skies of Israel in a mass attack against Egypt's airfields.[90] The Egyptian defensive infrastructure was extremely poor, and no airfields were yet equipped with hardened aircraft shelters capable of protecting Egypt's warplanes. Most of the Israeli warplanes headed out over the Mediterranean Sea, flying low to avoid radar detection, before turning toward Egypt. Others flew over the Red Sea.[91]

Meanwhile, the Egyptians hindered their own defense by effectively shutting down their entire air defense system: they were worried that rebel Egyptian forces would shoot down the plane carrying Field Marshal Abdel Hakim Amer and Lt-Gen. Sidqi Mahmoud, who were en route from al Maza to Bir Tamada in the Sinai to meet the commanders of the troops stationed there. In any event, it did not make a great deal of difference as the Israeli pilots came in below Egyptian radar cover and well below the lowest point at which its SA-2 surface-to-air missile batteries could bring down an aircraft.[92]

Although the powerful Jordanian radar facility at Ajloun detected waves of aircraft approaching Egypt and reported the code word for "war" up the Egyptian command chain, Egyptian command and communications problems prevented the warning from reaching the targeted airfields.[91] The Israelis employed a mixed attack strategy: bombing and strafing runs against planes parked on the ground, themselves, and bombing the runways with special tarmac-shredding penetration bombs developed jointly with France to disable them and leave surviving aircraft unable to take off. The runway at the Arish airfield was spared, as the Israelis expected to turn it into a military airport for their transports after the war. The surviving aircraft were later taken out by several more attack waves. The operation was more successful than expected, catching the Egyptians by surprise and destroying virtually all of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground, with few Israeli losses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Preliminary_air_attack

Le Monde on 28 February 1968:
Israeli Chief of Staff Rabin said this: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on 14 May would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

On 14 April 1971,
Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar:
Mordecai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government. “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

On 3 June 1972, LeMonde published an article by General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff where he wrote: “All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, have never been considered in our calculations. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our ‘defence’ against the Egyptian threat. This force was to crush once and for all the Egyptians at the military level and their Soviet masters at the political level. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel’s existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army.”

The lies about the 1967 war are still more powerful than the truth - Alan Hart

 

[CDNBear]

What? Who started the 6 day war again????

Egypt.

 

[earth_as_one]

That's right, CB, Egypt started the war by bombing their own air force... very clever of the them. I bet the Israelis never saw that coming...

 

[CDNBear]

That's right, CB, Egypt bombed their own air force... very clever of the them.

I didn't say that, stop lying.

Egypt still started the war.

Just because Israel fired the first round, doesn't negate Egypt's amassed troops, and threats of invasion.

One of the coolest precedents set by the courts is, if you point a gun at me, I don't have to wait until you pull the trigger to use deadly force.

 

[MHz]

Egypt.

Proving that time travel is possible for bear because that is right off the pages of the 1965 playbook describing how to bomb runways located in, ..... wait for it..... Egypt.

 

[DaSleeper]

That guy EAO doesn't have an antiJew bone in his body:roll:

 

[CDNBear]

Proving that time travel is possible for bear because that is right off the pages of the 1965 playbook describing how to bomb runways located in, ..... wait for it..... Egypt.

See the post above yours.

 

[earth_as_one]

"Firing first" is also known as "Starting a war".

Actually Isrsael fired the first round against Egypt, the second round against Syria and Jordan and the third round were Israeli land invasions into the Sinai, Golan Heights, the West Bank and Gaza.

Perhaps you can list the attacks against Israel during that war that happened before Israel "fired first"...

 

[CDNBear]

"Firing first" is also known as "Starting a war".

Unless faced with eminent danger.

It's a lovely legal precedent.

Sorry it doesn't jive with your need to demonize Israel.