Israeli Planes Attack Gaza Targets

EagleSmack

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I can get a PhD in history, he's a fat retard. **** all those GOP circus chimps, they're a calamity of the human race.



No it didn't, unless you take the bible as absolute truth.


Someone needs a history lesson! Do you think the Bible is the only source of Judaic history?

Now who's a retard?



They're white, they ****ing came from Germany and all over Europe (Israeli's).


Wow... you're a genius!

Seriously?
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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You call it "even-stephen" because hundreds of years before Israel's existence some Jews were persecuted. So that then in your mind entitles Jews today to oppress the Palestinians so to make it "even-stephen". This is ridiculous simply put. I'm at a lost for words how dumb your thought process works.



That's happening to Palestinian families tenfold.

This is just a plague covering the whole mid-east that Israel is trying to hold back the best they can and doing a great job.

This is not just Saudi Arabia, but most of the Muslim world today. Now lets see how this Muslim Brotherhood changes their world. Cannot believe that some of you actually believe in this and condone it when it is done by others. You cannot defend it, your positions have already been noted.

"DUBAI (Reuters) - Rights group Amnesty International has described as "deeply shocking" Saudi Arabia's beheading of a woman convicted on charges of "sorcery and witchcraft," saying it underlined the urgent need to end executions in the kingdom.
Saudi national Amina bint Abdul Halim bin Salem Nasser was executed on Monday in the northern province of al-Jawf after being tried and convicted for practicing sorcery, the interior ministry said, without giving details of the charges.
"The citizen... practiced acts of witchcraft and sorcery," Saudi newspaper al-Watan cited the interior ministry as saying. "The death sentence was carried out on the accused yesterday (Monday) in the Qurayyat district in al-Jawf region."
Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy, has no written criminal code, which is instead based on an uncodified form of Islamic sharia law as interpreted by the country's judges.
http://news.yahoo.com/amnesty-says-saudi-beheading-sorcery-shocking-091838743.html
DUBAI (Reuters) - Rights group Amnesty International has described as "deeply shocking" Saudi Arabia's beheading of a woman convicted on charges of "sorcery and witchcraft," saying it underlined the urgent need to end executions in the kingdom.
Saudi national Amina bint Abdul Halim bin Salem Nasser was executed on Monday in the northern province of al-Jawf after being tried and convicted for practicing sorcery, the interior ministry said, without giving details of the charges.
"The citizen... practiced acts of witchcraft and sorcery," Saudi newspaper al-Watan cited the interior ministry as saying. "The death sentence was carried out on the accused yesterday (Monday) in the Qurayyat district in al-Jawf region."
Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy, has no written criminal code, which is instead based on an uncodified form of Islamic sharia law as interpreted by the country's judges."
http://news.yahoo.com/amnesty-says-saudi-beheading-sorcery-shocking-091838743.html
 

In Between Man

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That's happening to Palestinian families tenfold.

Quit trying to deflect criticism. First of all, Jews are not invading civilian homes and stabbing innocent babies to death, but more importantly you said ALL acts of violence against Israel was justified. All acts would include the murder of the Fogel family. Are you actually going to say that this specific act of murder is justified, or does your moral compass still somewhat work? Was the Fogel family murder justified?

Further, "Palestinian" civilians lose their lives because Hamas uses them as human shields by operating close to civilian buildings. In fact, the Israelis LIMIT their military operations and make every effort to minimize civilian casualties:

Aerial Strike on Hamas Weapons Facility in Gaza - YouTube
 

earth_as_one

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You want to trade gory links regarding Israeli and Palestinian war crimes???? You'll loose that challenge. There are way more gory images on the internet of Israeli war crimes than their adversary's war crimes against Israel.

Probably the most horrific war crime ever committed by Israel was when the IDF secured the perimeters of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982 and then sent in their mercenaries to commit genocide. Several thousand civilians, mostly women and children were brutally slaughtered. Women were gang raped, tortured and murdered in the most horrendous ways often in front of their children. Israel's mercenaries even sliced up pregnant women just for kicks. During these 3 days of extreme barbaric cruelty,the IDF prevented Palestinians from escaping, provided food and alcohol to their mercenaries and lit up the night skies with flares as they observed the genocidal carnage like some kind of cruel perverted voyeurs. The Israel general responsible for that carnage (Ariel Sharon) eventually became an Israeli Prime Minister.
 

In Between Man

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CDNBear

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You want to trade gory links regarding Israeli and Palestinian war crimes???? You'll loose that challenge. There are way more gory images on the internet of Israeli war crimes than their adversary's war crimes against Israel.

Probably the most horrific war crime ever committed by Israel was when the IDF secured the perimeters of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982 and then sent in their mercenaries to commit genocide. Several thousand civilians, mostly women and children were brutally slaughtered. Women were gang raped, tortured and murdered in the most horrendous ways often in front of their children. Israel's mercenaries even sliced up pregnant women just for kicks. During these 3 days of extreme barbaric cruelty,the IDF prevented Palestinians from escaping, provided food and alcohol to their mercenaries and lit up the night skies with flares as they observed the genocidal carnage like some kind of cruel perverted voyeurs. The Israel general responsible for that carnage (Ariel Sharon) eventually became an Israeli Prime Minister.
Still demonizing the Heebs eh.
 

ironsides

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You want to trade gory links regarding Israeli and Palestinian war crimes???? You'll loose that challenge. There are way more gory images on the internet of Israeli war crimes than their adversary's war crimes against Israel.

Probably the most horrific war crime ever committed by Israel was when the IDF secured the perimeters of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982 and then sent in their mercenaries to commit genocide. Several thousand civilians, mostly women and children were brutally slaughtered. Women were gang raped, tortured and murdered in the most horrendous ways often in front of their children. Israel's mercenaries even sliced up pregnant women just for kicks. During these 3 days of extreme barbaric cruelty,the IDF prevented Palestinians from escaping, provided food and alcohol to their mercenaries and lit up the night skies with flares as they observed the genocidal carnage like some kind of cruel perverted voyeurs. The Israel general responsible for that carnage (Ariel Sharon) eventually became an Israeli Prime Minister.

Sorry EAO, your wrong again. You want credibility, at least identify the right people. Israel may have looked the other way, but were under no obligation to interfere with a Lebanese internal problem. After the assassination of Bachir Gemayel, leader and president-elect of the Lebanese Kataeb Party, a Maronite group, also called Lebanese Forces militia group, entered the camp and murdered inhabitants during the night.

 

Just the Facts

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:lol: The Philistines have NOTHING to due with the "Palestinian" identity! From your own article:

10th–7th centuries BC: Philistines lose most of their distinctive culture and absorb that of surrounding peoples

Yup, the Philistines were a Hellenic people. The Palestinians were the Jews. As EAO pointed out in a past thread, we know this to be as long ago as around 500 bce as evidenced by Greek writings, particularly Aristotle. Palestine is NOT Philistin, the Greeks had unique terms for both.
 

MHz

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:lol: The Philistines have NOTHING to due with the "Palestinian" identity! From your own article:

10th–7th centuries BC: Philistines lose most of their distinctive culture and absorb that of surrounding peoples
Goliath was a Philistine, the point that makes is that Israel was stolen from them through war by the 12 Tribes, they lost posession through war by Neb in about 600BC and they never regained possession at any time since then. Why should they be granted possession some 2600 years later? And all the other $benifit$ that come with it wereas the inhabitans of the land for many generations get exiled or killed.
 

earth_as_one

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No, Israel in a very ancient country that had been trying to re-occupy Jerusalem and pretty much all of Israel as the UN partitioned in 1948 for over 2,000+ years. The Palestinians are interlopers who squatted on their land.
Actually genetic testing proves that some Jews left this area 2000 years ago while others remained behind. The descendents of the Jews who remained converted to Islam and became Palestinians.
Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Sorry EAO, your wrong again. You want credibility, at least identify the right people. Israel may have looked the other way, but were under no obligation to interfere with a Lebanese internal problem. After the assassination of Bachir Gemayel, leader and president-elect of the Lebanese Kataeb Party, a Maronite group, also called Lebanese Forces militia group, entered the camp and murdered inhabitants during the night.

If you truly believe your statement about Israel not having any responsibility because their mercenaries were Lebanese and this was an internal Lebanese problem, then you must also believe that no one should have stopped the Rwandan genocide either. According to your logic that genocide was an internal Rwandan problem. You must also believe the Nazi death camps were an internal German problem.

The fact is the IDF didn't look the other way. They secured the perimeter of these refugee camps. Their mercenaries crossed Israeli checkpoints repeatedly to enter and leave the camps. During the three days it took to kill all these people, the IDF watched watched the slaughter from observation posts overlooking the camps. The IDF prevented people from escaping. The IDF supplied the arms used to commit the massacre. The IDF resupplied the mercenaries during the 3 days it took to slaughter all these people. At night, the IDF lit up the sky over the refugee camps with flares. After the slaughter, Israeli bulldozers buried bodies in mass graves. At one point the IDF did intervene to prevent their mercenaries from slaughtering 20 foreign nurses and doctors who were in the camp.

...Just outside the camp we were ordered to take off our hospital clothing and we were lined up against a wall. It was at that moment that an Israeli army officer drove up in an army vehicle. He saved our lives, ordering the militiamen to hand us over to the Israelis. Alongside the southern and western borders of the camps we saw Israeli tanks and halftracks. After interrogation in their military headquarters the Phalangists took us to the Israeli forward command post just 75 meters (250 feet) away. It was a 4 or 5 story building at the edge of Shatila. (Some weeks later I was on the top floor. It offered excellent views of the destruction in Shatila). The Israeli soldiers were clearly uncomfortable, being confronted with more than 20 Europeans and Americans...
Why Sharon is a War Criminal (by Dr. Ben Alofs) - Media Monitors Network

If the Israelis didn't know what was going on then how did they know that their mercenaries were about to execute a group of foreign doctors and nurses??????

The IDF had the ability to prevent this atrocity before it happened and the ability to stop it once it started. Instead the IDF under the leadership of General Ariel Sharon created the conditions for genocide and let the slaughter continue until everyone in the camp was dead.

If Syrian troops had crossed into Israel, surrounded a Kibbutz and allowed their Palestinian allies to slaughter the Jewish inhabitants, I doubt you would have trouble blaming the Syrians.

What is truly disgusting here is how not a single Israeli apologist here will even condemn this atrocity. If you believed Palestinians are human beings, then you should feel some compassion.

...there were women lying in houses with their skirts torn torn up to their waists and their legs wide apart, children with their throats cut, rows of young men shot in the back after being lined up at an execution wall. There were babies - blackened babies babies because they had been slaughtered more than 24-hours earlier and their small bodies were already in a state of decomposition - tossed into rubbish heaps alongside discarded US army ration tins, Israeli army equipment and empty bottles of whiskey....
SABRA AND SHATILA By Robert Fisk
 

Colpy

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gore0bsessed

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Quit trying to deflect criticism. First of all, Jews are not invading civilian homes and stabbing innocent babies to death, but more importantly you said ALL acts of violence against Israel was justified. All acts would include the murder of the Fogel family. Are you actually going to say that this specific act of murder is justified, or does your moral compass still somewhat work? Was the Fogel family murder justified?

Further, "Palestinian" civilians lose their lives because Hamas uses them as human shields by operating close to civilian buildings. In fact, the Israelis LIMIT their military operations and make every effort to minimize civilian casualties:

Aerial Strike on Hamas Weapons Facility in Gaza - YouTube

Israeli's are invading civilian homes firstly.
When I said acts of violence are justified, I was referring to actions that work towards bringing Palestinians independence. Going into homes and massacring Israeli families doesn't help accomplish that goal so I wouldn't condone that. That's rarely happening if at all anyways, your video is stupid propaganda.
There are plenty of statistics available (some posted in this thread by EAO) that dismiss that idiotic notion that Israel try to minimize civilian casualties. Furthermore, some IDF soldiers have come out and said they were literally told to target civilians.
 

Colpy

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There are plenty of statistics available (some posted in this thread by EAO) that dismiss that idiotic notion that Israel try to minimize civilian casualties. Furthermore, some IDF soldiers have come out and said they were literally told to target civilians.

As I have pointed out over and over and over on these threads, the numbers prove that contention is a lie, and the numbers are provided by HAMAS.

Simple as that.
 

gore0bsessed

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Someone needs a history lesson! Do you think the Bible is the only source of Judaic history?
What are you talking about?



Wow... you're a genius!

Seriously?

I appreciate that but it really doesn't take a genius to know many of the Jews that flocked to Israel in the 40s were German-born(whites).

As I have pointed out over and over and over on these threads, the numbers prove that contention is a lie, and the numbers are provided by HAMAS.

Simple as that.

No you've never supplied anything sufficient or at all convincing that would even come remotely close to contradicting the reality of Israeli war crimes.
 

EagleSmack

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What are you talking about?

You are insinuating that the Bible as the sole source of Judaic history and dismissing every other piece of evidence about the Jewish people in the Holy Land.


I appreciate that but it really doesn't take a genius to know many of the Jews that flocked to Israel in the 40s were German-born(whites).



Many did, but not all. And they weren't all German, they came from all over Europe and the US for that matter. There were many Jews already there.
 

gore0bsessed

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You are insinuating that the Bible as the sole source of Judaic history and dismissing every other piece of evidence about the Jewish people in the Holy Land.

The bible and various other religious texts are the main "evidence" of the existence of this ancient Israel. When you ask a nutjob Israeli why they think they have mores rights to the land over the Arabs they're refer to the bible, not any actual historical facts. Non-secular Israeli's, who aren't completely retarded, won't even attempt to justify their government's aggression over the Palestinians. They realize they have no more rights over the land then the Palestinians.



Many did, but not all. And they weren't all German, they came from all over Europe and the US for that matter. There were many Jews already there.
Yeah, I said they came from Germany and all over Europe. They're were mostly white Europeans.. There were Jews in Israel before 1948 but there weren't nearly as numerous as the Arabs.

Yup, the Philistines were a Hellenic people. The Palestinians were the Jews. As EAO pointed out in a past thread, we know this to be as long ago as around 500 bce as evidenced by Greek writings, particularly Aristotle. Palestine is NOT Philistin, the Greeks had unique terms for both.

lol

The Palestinian people, (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī) also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العرب الفلسطينيون‎, al-‘Arab al-Filasṭīniyyūn), are an Arabic-speaking people descended from peoples indigenous to Palestine.[17]

Were the Philistines not "indigenous to Palestine" (Canaan)? Yes! They were.
 

EagleSmack

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The bible and various other religious texts are the main "evidence" of the existence of this ancient Israel.

No... it really isn't. Not by a long shot is the bible the main evidence. It suits your argument to make that claim but it is hardly the main evidence.

For example... ever hear of King Herrod? Massada?

Real people and real places.



When you ask a nutjob Israeli why they think they have mores rights to the land over the Arabs they're refer to the bible, not any actual historical facts.

Yes, a strongly religious Jewish person will say that.

Non-secular Israeli's, who aren't completely retarded, won't even attempt to justify their government's aggression over the Palestinians. They realize they have no more rights over the land then the Palestinians.

Oh I doubt that! Do you think every Jew in Israel is Hacidic?


Yeah, I said they came from Germany and all over Europe. They're were mostly white Europeans.. There were Jews in Israel before 1948 but there weren't nearly as numerous as the Arabs.

No they weren't as numerous than the arabs (and still aren't) but that is somewhat irrelevant to the claim of whose land it is.
 

ironsides

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What are you talking about?





I appreciate that but it really doesn't take a genius to know many of the Jews that flocked to Israel in the 40s were German-born(whites).



No you've never supplied anything sufficient or at all convincing that would even come remotely close to contradicting the reality of Israeli war crimes.


Since most of the accounts of ancient Israel and the Holy Land come from the Bible and have for the most part been proven true, the Bible is historical book of the area. The following is 100% copied by me, but prove it wrong.



"In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx -- yes, that Karl Marx.)

In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described that land: "A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human."

In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker; The book estimated the total population of Jerusalem at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Transjordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and actually encouraged by British mandatory authority.

Prior to the Second World War, Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will leave and come to Palestine."

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946, and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks. Over 80% of the original British Mandate land was given to Arabs, without population transfer of Arabs from the land designated for Jews.


In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel.

In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors.

Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (but where did they get this number?). Based on population census, the estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time.

From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, 58 synagogues in Jerusalem were destroyed, and the Jews and Christians were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1964 only, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat. The idea became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel re-captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the defensive Six-Day War of 1967,

Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel.

Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy.


There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab nations.

The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Pan-Arabism, or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate, declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus, Spain, for example, must eventually be re-conquered."


by: Annt Hu DeShalit:

 

gore0bsessed

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The guy with the PhD is correct.

Current company, whom I suspect failed Milk and Cookies in pre-school, is completely wrong.

Here....watch and learn.

Michael Coren: Newt Gingrich is right - YouTube

If Palestinians are invented peoples, I wonder what the Native Americans think of Americans :lol:

Since most of the accounts of ancient Israel and the Holy Land come from the Bible and have for the most part been proven true, the Bible is historical book of the area. The following is 100% copied by me, but prove it wrong.



"In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx -- yes, that Karl Marx.)

In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described that land: "A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human."

In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker; The book estimated the total population of Jerusalem at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Transjordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and actually encouraged by British mandatory authority.

Prior to the Second World War, Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will leave and come to Palestine."

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946, and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks. Over 80% of the original British Mandate land was given to Arabs, without population transfer of Arabs from the land designated for Jews.


In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel.

In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors.

Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (but where did they get this number?). Based on population census, the estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time.

From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, 58 synagogues in Jerusalem were destroyed, and the Jews and Christians were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1964 only, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat. The idea became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel re-captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the defensive Six-Day War of 1967,

Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel.

Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy.


There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab nations.

The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Pan-Arabism, or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate, declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus, Spain, for example, must eventually be re-conquered."


by: Annt Hu DeShalit:

This is all grossly misleading and seems to be propaganda horse****. The writer demonizes Arabs while making Jews seem holier than thou. I won't address it further than that.

Good quote from someone that makes a good counter to Gingrich's comment

this reminds me of a question i posed here a while ago which never really got much attention: At what point does indigenity begin? for instance, everyone knows that the aboriginal peoples of the americas are commonly known collectively as Native Americans, but couldnt those of european, african, or asian descent who have lived on those continents for several generations also be called "native Americans"?

just because the palestinians were not originally native to israel/palestine doesnt means that they arent (one of) its native peoples NOW. the fact that the name is pretty much invented doesnt invalidate their status as a people. after all, "America" is an invented name; "Britain" is an invented name; the peoples of eastern North Africa are called the Berbers, which is just an archaic form of "barbarian"; as another example, most of the people of Italy likely arent even "real" Italians--they would Genovese, Venetians, Napoletani, Sicilians, and so on (the original Italy just happened to be in power when the states in the region were unified)