Baird Lambasts Proponents of Palestinian UN Bid

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Well, that's not necessarily the case. We all know proportional representation as an electoral process is more democratic than plurality.

That is besides the point.

Mr. Baird is a member of the party in power representing the state however it was elected. Despite the fact that our electoral process is not perfectly democratic, they are still given the right to vote on the basis that Canada is acknowledged as a "state".

Similarly, despite the fact that many states are not democratic, they are given the right to a U.N. spot.

Yes, this includes all of those wacky despots!

Like I said.

Welcome to democracy. If it was elitism, we wouldn't let everyone in.

Now you are starting to make me angry.

So, if you had a World Federation of Really Nasty People representing the worst dictators that ever lived: Mao Tse-tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Idi Amin, Jean-Bédel Bokassa........you get the idea.........

So if they each held a vote in the Federation, then that federation, in your opinion, would represent the wishes of the people of those nations, and would be democratic....

Uh-huh.

Because that is basically what the UN is.........

Now, as for Canadian democracy.....the first past the post system is not perfect, I would prefer the preferential ballot myself.....but in our system each MP is fairly elected to represent the people of his riding, and the collection of these together in a party represents the will of that electorate.

To compare that to the manipulations of tyrants by considering their voice in the UN as "democratic" is an insult to both the free peoples of the world, and our intelligence.

Lefty brain-dead relativism at its worst.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Now you are starting to make me angry.

So, if you had a World Federation of Really Nasty People representing the worst dictators that ever lived: Mao Tse-tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Idi Amin, Jean-Bédel Bokassa........you get the idea.........

So if they each held a vote in the Federation, then that federation, in your opinion, would represent the wishes of the people of those nations, and would be democratic....

Uh-huh.

Because that is basically what the UN is.........


You're just upset because your "theory" means that China can't be in the U.N. since it's not a democratic nation.

I gave you a good opportunity to jump back in from a different angle a few posts back, but you decided to ignore that.

It's okay. I guess you'll have to continue banging your head against the wall on this.

Now, as for Canadian democracy.....the first past the post system is not perfect, I would prefer the preferential ballot myself.....but in our system each MP is fairly elected to represent the people of his riding, and the collection of these together in a party represents the will of that electorate.

To compare that to the manipulations of tyrants by considering their voice in the UN as "democratic" is an insult to both the free peoples of the world, and our intelligence.

Lefty brain-dead relativism at its worst.


Why don't you compare us to other, non-democratic nations who also participate in the U.N. democratic environment?

Like China or Russia?

Oh, because that would mean you have to admit you're wrong. :)
 

BruSan

Electoral Member
Jul 5, 2011
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Colpy; yer wast'n yer breath with these types; akin to the guy in the mental institution who was asked: "why do you beat your head against the wall" - "cause it feels so good when I stop".

Logic and deductive reasoning all flies in the face of their desire to argue white is black just for the sake of it.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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You'll have to explain the logic of Israel agreeing to a settlement with the Palestinians, when no agreement allows Israelis to continue taking Palestinian land.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
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You're just upset because your "theory" means that China can't be in the U.N. since it's not a democratic nation.

I gave you a good opportunity to jump back in from a different angle a few posts back, but you decided to ignore that.

It's okay. I guess you'll have to continue banging your head against the wall on this.



Why don't you compare us to other, non-democratic nations who also participate in the U.N. democratic environment?

Like China or Russia?

Oh, because that would mean you have to admit you're wrong. :)


WHERE did I say only democratic nations should be in the UN????????????????????????

Only in your fevered imagination.

The UN is a LOST CAUSE. Give it up, let it go, they are worse than useless. We should abandon them completely, and I don't give a hoot WHO they bring on board....

I would like to see an international congress of liberal democracies..........you know, that would promote real peace, human rights, and self-determination. But even that might be clumsy.

Personally, I would like to see a strong military and economic alliance of the English-speaking democracies:
Canada, the United States, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, India.......

And to hell with other international bodies.

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DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
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Northern Ontario,
Maxine would say

 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Moral relativity doesn't allow for that.

Did you miss your shots too?
There's petros version of substance.

I'm not sure how you got that impression, but recent polls indicate nearly twice as many Canadians support Palestinian Statehood compared to those who oppose it.
I support Palestinian Statehood.

What does that tell you about what you are erroneously trying to say?

Colpy, if you want to have a rational discussion, can you at least make an earnest statement about what we're actually talking about and then back it up?

How can you even say stuff like this and expect to be taken seriously?
Geeze I don't know. How can we take you seriously after you posted the following?

No idea, but having this goon as our foreign affairs minister is misrepresenting the country.

Sun....lmfao
Can't refute the article eh?

You can't form an opinion on your own?
We already know you can't.

I don't bow to the east and worship the SUN....
You also can't formulate reasoned responses.

A democracy of states cannot exclude some states just because they aren't democratic themselves.
True, but those undemocratic states, with horrendous human rights records, shouldn't be given a pulpit to preach at other states about their's. Nor should they be allowed any role or the ability to cast judgment on any state, in regards to human rights.

Where is the substance?
Not in your posts.

That's just what people on the right tend to say. :p

Speaking of elitism how do you get democracy from a two class theoracy?

You kick out the communist regimes.

That's why the U.N. would be sooooo much more democratic without the membership of China.

At least that's what an elitist bird told me once.

Birds beware....it's only days from hunting season.

I hope we all learned something today.

Something tells me it will fall on deaf ears though.

I have learned.
  1. Two class societies are democratic
  2. Lebensraum is an excuse to occupy a territory and demoralize it's people
  3. God is confused
  4. Democracy is wrong
  5. Sun worship is good and
  6. Elitism is good if you're the elite
How about you?

I learned that one of the main criteria for UN admission of a state is that the state must be "peace loving".

The criteria for admission of new members are set out in the United Nations Charter, Chapter II, Article 4, as follows:[3]

  1. Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.
  2. The admission of any such state to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.

Member states of the United Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Is blowing the **** out of Libya, backing al Qaeda, and allowing a nation to fall under Sharia law peace loving?

We must not be peace loving if Canada lost it's seat on the council?

No, but if we were as lucky as the U.S., we could be permanent members either way.
Way to prove Colpy right guys...
 
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CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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I love you too Bear. :p
Yep, that says "Take me seriously"...:roll:

Would you like to discuss Baird's commentary or just carry on with your simplistic assassination of his character and ever moving goal posts?

Or maybe we could just discuss how the title of your thread here, is tantamount to a lie. Considering Baird made no such statements to the "proponents of Palestinian UN bid", at the Security Council.

He made a speech at the General Assembly. Not the Security Council.
 
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Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Yep, that says "Take me seriously"...:roll:


Video link below

http://www.unmultimedia.org/tv/webcast/2011/09/canada-general-debate-66th-session.html


From Foreign Affairs - Transrcript


Just a little cut and paste.

Address by the Honourable John Baird, Minister of Foreign Affairs, to the United Nations General Assembly

Canada would not simply “go along” or look elsewhere when the Assad regime started killing Syrian men, women and children in a despicable and desperate attempt to cling to power.

We imposed tough sanctions on the regime and its backers.

Canada will not go along with a double standard that castigates some U.N. members for alleged failings while ignoring the notorious abuses of others.

We supported the aspirations of those peoples who sought for themselves and their countries brighter futures during the Arab Spring that just passed.

But we will not go along with the unilateral actions of the Palestinian Authority.

Just a few days ago, the Quartet laid the foundation for a return to negotiations.

Our government’s position has been clear—the only solution to this issue is one that is negotiated by the two parties themselves.

We continue to encourage both sides to accept these principles and return to direct talks based on a two state solution without delay or preconditions.

We uphold Israel’s right to exist.
We uphold its fundamental right, like any member state, to defend innocent civilians against acts of terrorism.

Just as fascism and communism were the great struggles of previous generations, terrorism is the great struggle of ours.

And far too often, the Jewish state is on the front line of our struggle and its people the victims of terror.

Canada will not accept or stay silent while the Jewish state is attacked for defending its territory and its citizens.

The Second World War taught us all the tragic price of “going along” just to “get along.”

It was accommodation and appeasement that allowed fascism to gather strength. As Winston Churchill said: “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”

We respect state sovereignty, but Canada will not “go along” or look the other way when a minority is denied its human rights or fundamental freedoms.

It is our common duty to uphold the rights of the afflicted. To give voice to the voiceless.

As citizens of the global community, we have a solemn duty to defend the vulnerable, to challenge the aggressor, to protect and promote human rights and human dignity, at home and abroad:

Women, Christians, Bahá'í and other victims of persecution in Iran.

Roman Catholics priests and other Christian clergy, and their laity, driven to worship underground in China.

Christians being driven out of Iraq by Al Qaeda and Copts being assaulted and killed in Egypt.

In Burma, the regime discriminates against several forms of Buddhism and restricts the activities of Muslims. In other places, the Ahmadiyya community faces violence.

Gays and lesbians threatened with criminalization of their sexuality in Uganda.

And other minorities subjected to persecution, oppression or violence.

Our nationalities are many, but we share one humanity.

I am pleased to report that Canada will be creating an Office of Religious Freedom within our Government at the heart of my own department.

The office will promote freedom of religion and freedom of conscience as key objectives of Canadian foreign policy.

The long history of humanity has proven that religious freedom and democratic freedom are inseparable.

As Franklin Roosevelt observed on the eve of global war: “Where freedom of religion has been attacked, the attack has come from sources opposed to democracy.

“Where democracy has been overthrown, the spirit of free worship has disappeared. “And where religion and democracy have vanished, good faith and reason in international affairs have given way to strident ambition and brute force.”

And this brings me to Canada’s support of multilateral institutions and multilateral action.

Some years ago, a former Secretary General referred to “enlightened multilateralism as the guarantor, not the enemy, of state sovereignty and the integrity of state.”

State sovereignty is not created by multilateral institutions.

Instead, multilateral institutions exist and derive legitimacy from the independent decisions of sovereign states.

Canada’s position in this regard was explained by our Prime Minister just last year.

Referring to multilateral action to address the world economic crisis, Stephen Harper said: “I saw world leadership at its best, a glimpse of a hopeful future—one where we act together for the good of all. The world we have been trying to build since 1945. The world we want for our children and grandchildren. It can be done if we act together. This is ‘enlightened sovereignty.’”

Multilateral institutions and multilateral action result from a collection of sovereign decisions based on individual states’ own interests: Not narrow self-interest in sovereignty’s name, but an expanded view of mutual interest in which there is room for all to grow and to prosper.

Canada calls this “enlightened sovereignty.”

It is the natural extension of enlightened self-interest.

As Canada’s Prime Minister noted when he addressed the General Assembly last year, the U.N. Charter is animated by “the idea that what’s good for others may well be the best way to pursue one’s own interests.”

In other words, enlightened sovereignty.

The world knows that we can accomplish great things by working together.

This year, collective action, under U.N. sanction, helped to limit the loss of life in Libya, and ultimately ended a criminal, illegitimate regime’s war on the people it claimed to represent.

Canada was proud to take part in its demise.

Our Royal Canadian Air Force flew 10 percent of the total strike sorties against Qadhafi’s forces, and our Royal Canadian Navy helped enforce the maritime blockade.

Canada has paid heavily—both in dollar terms and in priceless human toll—to fulfill our U.N. obligation to support the lawful government of Afghanistan.

We used our chairmanship of the G-8 to reach out to leaders from Africa and the Americas and to secure an agreement to enact the Muskoka Initiative for maternal, newborn and child health.

This progress will help to meet a Millennium Development Goal to reduce the appalling mortality among mothers and children in developing countries.

Working with like-minded nations, Canada continues to make significant financial contributions toward peace, humanitarian assistance, development aid and security in the Sudans.

Collective action does not mean uniformity.

For example, Canada is working closely with like-minded countries to advance human rights and democracy in Burma.

At the same time, we imposed the toughest sanctions in the world against that country’s repressive military regime.

Similarly, when Canada placed strong restrictions on Syria’s current regime, we acted independently, but in close consultation and cooperation with other nations.

In the defence of freedom and human rights, form cannot prevail over substance.

The determinant is what route produces the best results.

While multilateral action should be preferred, failure to achieve consensus must not prevent the willing from acting to uphold human rights and the Founding Principles of the United Nations.

Margaret Thatcher was once reported to have said: “Consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes…”

This leads to my third topic: the challenges to the relevance and effectiveness of this organization.

Canada has been a consistently reliable and responsible participant in U.N. initiatives around the world.

We are the seventh-largest contributor to U.N. finances. The citizens of the world deserve that the U.N. abide by the same principles observed by so many governments of member states:

accountability, transparency and ethics;
financial responsibility and fiscal austerity;
efficiency and the elimination of waste and duplication;
regular reviews to sunset unnecessary, redundant and obsolete mandates;
and zero tolerance for conflicts of interest, fraud and corruption.
Yet the challenges faced by this organization extend beyond financial probity and operational effectiveness.

This organization is a forum for debate and dialogue, but it must also be a force for positive action to make the world a better place.

As former Canadian Prime Minister John Diefenbaker told this Assembly during his defence of the world’s persecuted minorities: “We are not here in this assembly to win wars of propaganda. We are here to win victories for peace.”

The U.N.’s relevance and effectiveness are imperilled when the Founding Principles are observed in word but not in deed.

So it is when the presidency of the disarmament conference passes to a regime involved in the illicit transfers of weapons, material and technology.

Or when Iran, which mocks the values of this organization through outrages such as refusing to allow entry to UN observers on human rights, is permitted to seek leadership roles, such as a vice-presidency of the General Assembly and a spot on the Commission on Population and Development.

Or when objection is taken, on petty, procedural or process-based grounds, to reporting that speaks about credible allegations of war crimes committed in Sri Lanka.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Yeah WW2 is a really good thing to keep grasping onto after 66 years. Trying dealing with the issues of today sometime.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Yeah WW2 is a really good thing to keep grasping onto after 66 years. Trying dealing with the issues of today sometime.
Still more substance than the accumulative of your posts in this thread. Actually, most threads.