A balanced Canadian approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[earth_as_one]

Winning or loosing doesn't make you good or bad. What makes you a bad person is how you win or loose. Both Israelis and Palestinians have committed war crimes. I am against war criminals. I'm on the side of innocent people being attacked by war criminals.

 

[YukonJack]

Hypothetical:

Israel and "Palestine" were in front of the international court.

"Palestine" indignantly declared: The whole trouble started when those blasted Jews hit back!!!!

 

[PoliticalNick]

Hypothetical:

Israel and "Palestine" were in front of the international court.

"Palestine" indignantly declared: The whole trouble started when those blasted Jews hit back!!!!

And just when did the palestinians start this whole thing? Was it in 1948 when the league of nations took their land and gave it someone else or at some other point?

 

[earth_as_one]

I've been following Ban Ki-Moon since he came UNSG. At first he never said very little about this conflict. However, it appears he is coming to the same conclusions as previous UNSGs regarding Israel/Palestine.

Haaretz 30.03.11

UN chief: Israel's occupation is 'morally, politically unsustainable'

United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called on Israel Wednesday to halt settlement building in the West Bank and put a stop to all forms of violence and incitement, the UN News Center reported...

...“Time is of the essence in realizing the two-State solution, " Ban said, "the occupation that started in 1967 is morally and politically unsustainable, and must end. The Palestinians have a legitimate right to the establishment of an independent and viable State of their own."...

...The secretary general continued, saying “actions that prejudge the outcome of the process must stop,” referring to Israel's continued settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem , demolition of Palestinian homes and other forms of violence and incitement...

...Ban reportedly condemned the recent escalation in rocket fire from Gaza to Israel, calling on both sides to prevent civilian casualties and act in conformity with international law, reiterating his “strong condemnation” of the recent bombing in Jerusalem, in which a 59-year-old British tourist was killed and over 30 wounded.

He stressed that "Israel has the right to live in peace and security within internationally recognized and secure borders."...

UN chief: Israel's occupation is 'morally, politically unsustainable' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[CDNBear]

I've been following Ban Ki-Moon since he came UNSG. At first he never said very little about this conflict. However, it appears he is coming to the same conclusions as previous UNSGs regarding Israel/Palestine.

Haaretz 30.03.11
UN chief: Israel's occupation is 'morally, politically unsustainable' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

So does this mean you'll stop calling it a war crime, since you agree it's just morally wrong?

I actually agree with Mr Moonie on this one.

Do you?

 

[earth_as_one]

The Rwandan genocide could be described as morally wrong too.

Why are you so eager to excuse war crimes and crimes against humanity. Is it because Palestinians are terrorists and deserve to be treated worse than animals?

Can you actually debate a topic without insulting or demeaning everyone who has a different opinion than you?

 

[CDNBear]

The Rwandan genocide could be described as morally wrong too.

So the answer is no then.

Splitting hairs is just silly. Mr Moonie would say "illegal" if he actually thought it was.

Why are you so eager to excuse war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Please show me a direct quote, where I have excused, proven, in a court of law, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Because I can show where you have tried and convicted one group, without so much as a single application of law. While on the other hand, demand that a court of law must decide if another group is actually guilty.

Your idea of just application of the law is skewed, and definitely driven by moral relativism.

Is it because Palestinians are terrorists and deserve to be treated worse than animals?

You said that, not me.

Can you actually debate a topic without insulting or demeaning everyone who has a different opinion than you?

Yes, yes I can, unless they believe anecdotal stories over documented evidence. Support neo Nazi groups in anyway shape or form. Have an ever spinning moral compass. Believe everyone has the right to jurisprudence, except the Joos.

Then they get served a healthy dose of reality or they just get treated like the dummies/scum they are.

Why?

Have you actually conceded to fact somewhere I'm unaware of?
Have you denounced Hamas completely?
Have you denounced the Hezbollah completely?
Have you denounced the Muslim Brotherhood completely?
Have you stopped believing every anecdotal story out of Palestine?
Have you stopped placing a greater burden of proof on the Joos then their Arab neighbours?
Have you simply answered my question as to why Israel is to blame for the malnutrition in Gaza, when Gaza is exporting food?

 

[earth_as_one]

So the answer is no then.

Splitting hairs is just silly. Mr Moonie would say "illegal" if he actually thought it was.

....

You mean like this:

By JPOST.COM
01/21/2011

Ban Ki-moon: Settlements are illegal, hamper talks

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon criticized the continued building of settlements in the West Bank, calling them illegal and saying he is "very concerned at the lack of progress towards peace," speaking to a UN General Assembly committee on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Friday, AFP reported.

Ban said: “Settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory are illegal under international law, contravene the Road Map obligations of Israel, undermine confidence, prejudge the outcome of the permanent status negotiations and hamper efforts at bringing the parties back to the negotiating table,"...

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=204696

I could correct all your misperceptions, but what would be the point? I doubt you will ever stop trying to justify Israel's brutal, cruel and inhuman treatment of fellow human beings.

Can you actually debate a topic without insulting or demeaning everyone who has a different opinion than you?

...Support neo Nazi groups in anyway shape or form. Have an ever spinning moral compass. Believe everyone has the right to jurisprudence, except the Joos.

Then they get served a healthy dose of reality or they just get treated like the dummies/scum they are...

Question answered...

I have no interest entering into a debate with someone whose main response consists of personal insults and deliberate misquotes.

 

[CDNBear]

You mean like this:

Yep, and I agree, in part. Any land taken after 67, should not be be settled. Full Stop!

I could correct all your misperceptions, but what would be the point?

If you use fact, based on your own standard, that you demand from us, you might see me agree with you more. Or even better, you might actually see me concede.

But you have two standards, one for Palestinians and one for the Joos.

I doubt you will ever stop trying to justify Israel's brutal, cruel and inhuman treatment of fellow human beings.

I already challenged you to prove that.

I can and have proven with your own words, on numerous occasions, 99.9%, of everything I have accused you of.

You have to date, not once even remotely supported your claims about me, with a single in context quote.

But I bet you think you're on the high ground still.

Question answered...

Did you think that was directed at you EAO?



Feeling guilty?

I have no interest entering into a debate with someone whose main response consists of personal insults and deliberate misquotes.

You mean you can't support you accusation, so you'll run away, under the usual excuse and whining.

Good, I wouldn't want you to go crying to the mods again.

 

[ironsides]

I've been following Ban Ki-Moon since he came UNSG. At first he never said very little about this conflict. However, it appears he is coming to the same conclusions as previous UNSGs regarding Israel/Palestine.

Haaretz 30.03.11
UN chief: Israel's occupation is 'morally, politically unsustainable' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

What Ban Ki-Moon thinks is really not important. What is important is will Israel annex the territory or not. The Palestinians have played around to long. It is time to for Israel to end the problem. There is no way they will give it back.

 

[earth_as_one]

The area was annexed back in 1967 for all practical purposes. Israel has since moved on to ethnic cleansing... by force or by bureaucracy.

...60 per cent of the Israeli-occupied West Bank that was eventually supposed to be handed over to its Palestinian inhabitants...leaf through the pile of demolition orders lying on the table in front of Abed Kasab, head of the village council in Jiftlik, and it all looks like ethnic cleansing via bureaucracy. Perverse might be the word for the paperwork involved. Obscene appear to be the results...houses that cannot be permitted to stand, roofs that must be taken down, wells closed, sewage systems demolished; in one village...electrical poles cemented into concrete blocks standing on the surface of the dirt road. To place the poles in the earth would ensure their destruction – no ... hole more than 40cm below the ground... a batch of demolition papers for Jiftlik last December, all duly delivered, in Arabic and Hebrew... numbers 143912 through 145059, all from "The High Planning Council Monitoring [sic] Sub-Committee of the Civil Administration for the Area of Judea and Samaria".

Judea and Samaria – for ordinary folk – is the occupied West Bank.... requests to build houses are either delayed for years or refused; houses built without permission are ruthlessly torn down; corrugated iron roofs have to be camouflaged with plastic sheets in the hope the "Civil Administration" won't deem them an extra floor – in which case ...rip the lot off the top of the house... up to 150,000 Palestinians and 300,000 Jewish colonists living – illegally under international law – in 120 official settlements and 100 "unapproved" settlements or, in the language we must use these days, "illegal outposts"; illegal under Israeli as well as international law, that is – as opposed to the 120 internationally illegal colonies which are legal under Israeli law. Jewish settlers, needless to say, don't have problems with planning permission...

The winter sun blazes through the door of Mr Kasab's office and cigarette smoke drifts through the room as the angry men of Jiftlik shout their grievances. "I don't mind if you print my name, I am so angry, I will take the consequences," he says. "Breathing is the only thing we don't need a permit for – yet!" The rhetoric is tired, but the fury is real. "Buildings, new roads, reservoirs, we have been waiting three years to get permits. We cannot get a permit for a new health clinic. We are short of water for both human and agricultural use. Getting permission to rehabilitate the water system costs 70,000 Israeli shekels [about £14,000] – it costs more than the rehabilitation system itself."

...Oxfam, for example, asked the Israelis for a permit to build a 300m2 capacity below-ground reservoir along with 700m of underground 4in pipes for the thousands of Palestinians living around Jiftlik. It was refused. They then gave notice that they intended to construct an above-ground installation of two glass-fibre tanks, an above-ground pipe and booster pump. They were told they would need a permit even though the pipes were above ground – and they were refused a permit.

As a last resort, Oxfam is now distributing rooftop water tanks....an even more outrageous example of this apartheid-by-permit in the village of Zbeidat, where the European Union's humanitarian aid division installed 18 waste water systems to prevent the hamlet's vile-smelling sewage running through the gardens and across the main road into the fields. The £80,000 system – a series of 40ft shafts regularly flushed out by sewage trucks.... the aid workers have been told by the Israelis that work "must stop" on six of the 18 shafts – a prelude to their demolition, although already they are already built beside the road – because part of the village stands in Area C. Needless to say, no one – neither Palestinians nor Israelis – knows the exact borderline between B and C. Thus around £20,000 of European money has been thrown away by the Israeli "Civil Administration"

...this storm of permission and non-permission papers is intended to obscure the terrible reality...Many Israeli activists as well as western NGOs suspect Israel intends to force the Palestinians here to leave their lands and homes and villages and depart into the wretchedness of Areas B and A. B is jointly controlled by Israeli military and civil authorities and Palestinian police, and A by the witless Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas. Thus would the Palestinians be left to argue over a mere 40 per cent of the occupied West Bank – in itself a tiny fraction of the 22 per cent of Mandated Palestine... Add to this the designation of 18 per cent of Area C as "closed military areas" by the Israelis and add another 3 per cent preposterously designated as a "nature reserve" – it would be interesting to know what kind of animals roam there – and the result is simple: even without demolition orders, Palestinians cannot build in 70 per cent of Area C....a series of large concrete blocks erected by the Israeli army in front of Palestinian shacks. "Danger – Firing Area" was printed on each in Hebrew, Arabic and English. "Entrance Forbidden." What are the Palestinians living here supposed to do? Area C, it should be added, is the richest of the occupied Palestinian lands, with cheese production and animal farms. Many of the 5,000 souls in Jiftlik have been refugees already, their families fled lands to the west of Jerusalem – in present-day Israel – in 1947 and 1948. Their tragedy has not yet ended, of course. What price Palestine?

In the West Bank's stony hills, Palestine is slowly dying - Middle East, World - The Independent

Eventually Israel and the occupied territories will consist of Jewish only colonies and a series of prisons for non-Jews. Jews will live a life of state subsidized privilege. Non-Jews will only know walls, guard towers and razor wire from birth until death. They will live their lives closely watched and face constant discrimination, harassment, arrests and assassinations. If they behave, they may be allowed to work for adequate food and water. If they misbehave, they will know hunger and thirst.

 

[petros]

How about we wait until Jesus comes back and let him decide.

 

[ironsides]

Winning or loosing doesn't make you good or bad. What makes you a bad person is how you win or loose. Both Israelis and Palestinians have committed war crimes. I am against war criminals. I'm on the side of innocent people being attacked by war criminals.

Innocent people, just who are these innocents. For example: Obama has gotten us involved in destroying Gadhafi's Libya. We will probably succeed in doing just that. I was not in favor of it (in this case a innocent civilian) and if some Libyan decides to take revenge against the U.S. because of it and hurts me, I deserve it for allowing Obama to do what he did. There are many things we can do as civilians, but do not. In some ways those rebels who are civilians (not innocents) are doing what they think is right. As I have said before, there are no innocents in a conflict, just those who chose to fight and those who hide. Both have made choices for themselves and families, but they both are part of the conflict.

 

[earth_as_one]

When a suicide bomber takes out a bus, I'm on the side of the other people on the bus. When soldiers herd 50 men, women and children into a house and drop a bomb on it, I'm on the said of the men women and children.

 

[earth_as_one]

Amnesty International 2010 Annual Report regarding Israeli and the Occupied Palestinian Territories:

Israeli forces committed war crimes and other
serious breaches of international law in the Gaza
Strip during a 22-day military offensive code-named
Operation “Cast Lead” that ended on 18 January.
Among other things, they carried out indiscriminate
and disproportionate attacks against civilians,
targeted and killed medical staff, used Palestinian
civilians as “human shields”, and indiscriminately
fired white phosphorus over densely populated
residential areas. More than 1,380 Palestinians,
including over 330 children and hundreds of other
civilians, were killed. Much of Gaza was razed to the
ground, leaving vital infrastructure destroyed, the
economy in ruins and thousands of Palestinians
homeless.

Israeli forces continued to impose severe
restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the
Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) throughout
2009, hampering access to essential services and
land. The restrictions included a military blockade of
the Gaza Strip, which effectively imprisoned the
1.5 million residents and resulted in a humanitarian
crisis. Despite this, Israel often stopped
international aid and humanitarian assistance from
entering Gaza. Permission to leave Gaza to receive
medical treatment was denied or delayed for
hundreds of seriously ill Palestinians and at least
28 individuals died while waiting for permission to
travel. Israeli forces continued to forcibly evict
Palestinians, demolish their homes and expropriate
their land in the occupied West Bank, including East
Jerusalem, while allowing Israeli settlements to
expand on illegally confiscated Palestinian land.

Throughout the year, Israeli forces used excessive
and, at times, lethal force against Palestinian
civilians. Allegations of ill-treatment against
Palestinian detainees continued and were rarely
investigated. Hundreds were administratively
detained without charge; others were serving
sentences imposed after unfair military trials. Israeli
soldiers and settlers who committed serious human
rights abuses against Palestinians enjoyed virtual
impunity.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129

Canada's position regarding Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories:

Canada is “morally obliged” to stand up to threats against Israel, Prime Minister Stephen Harper told a Jewish audience in downtown Toronto Thursday night as both he and Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff sparred over which party is the stronger supporter of democracy in the Middle East.

Opponents who say that Canada has “lost its way” when it comes to its foreign policy are using “code for the view that Canada should go back to being ambivalent about our relationship with Israel and its fundamental right to defend itself,” Mr. Harper said. “Our party will never do that. We will always stand by [Israel].”

Both he and the Liberal leader addressed a sold-out crowd of 1,000 at the event hosted by the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee. It was held at the Royal Conservatory of Music.

The Liberals have a long association with the Canadian Jewish community and, as a defender of Israel, “does not do code,” said Mr. Ignatieff.

“I disagree with Mr. Harper about just about everything,” he said. “We have plenty to disagree upon. We have plenty we can use to run an election campaign on. Let us not run an election campaign on who’s the better support of the state of Israel,” he said.
Canada ?will always stand by? Israel, Harper says | Posted | National Post

Liberal and Conservative support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity are part of the reason why Amnesty International slammed Canada in this recent report:

The Report:
http://www.amnesty.ca/files/HRA.pdf

Press Release and Overview:
Reclaiming Canada's role as leader on human rights | Human Rights Agenda 2011

 

[ironsides]

Amnesty International 2010 Annual Report regarding Israeli and the Occupied Palestinian Territories:

Israeli forces committed war crimes and other
serious breaches of international law in the Gaza
Strip during a 22-day military offensive code-named
Operation “Cast Lead” that ended on 18 January.
Among other things, they carried out indiscriminate
and disproportionate attacks against civilians,
targeted and killed medical staff, used Palestinian
civilians as “human shields”, and indiscriminately
fired white phosphorus over densely populated
residential areas. More than 1,380 Palestinians,
including over 330 children and hundreds of other
civilians, were killed. Much of Gaza was razed to the
ground, leaving vital infrastructure destroyed, the
economy in ruins and thousands of Palestinians
homeless.

Israeli forces continued to impose severe
restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the
Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) throughout
2009, hampering access to essential services and
land. The restrictions included a military blockade of
the Gaza Strip, which effectively imprisoned the
1.5 million residents and resulted in a humanitarian
crisis. Despite this, Israel often stopped
international aid and humanitarian assistance from
entering Gaza. Permission to leave Gaza to receive
medical treatment was denied or delayed for
hundreds of seriously ill Palestinians and at least
28 individuals died while waiting for permission to
travel. Israeli forces continued to forcibly evict
Palestinians, demolish their homes and expropriate
their land in the occupied West Bank, including East
Jerusalem, while allowing Israeli settlements to
expand on illegally confiscated Palestinian land.

Throughout the year, Israeli forces used excessive
and, at times, lethal force against Palestinian
civilians. Allegations of ill-treatment against
Palestinian detainees continued and were rarely
investigated. Hundreds were administratively
detained without charge; others were serving
sentences imposed after unfair military trials. Israeli
soldiers and settlers who committed serious human
rights abuses against Palestinians enjoyed virtual
impunity.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129

Canada's position regarding Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories:

Canada is “morally obliged” to stand up to threats against Israel, Prime Minister Stephen Harper told a Jewish audience in downtown Toronto Thursday night as both he and Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff sparred over which party is the stronger supporter of democracy in the Middle East.

Opponents who say that Canada has “lost its way” when it comes to its foreign policy are using “code for the view that Canada should go back to being ambivalent about our relationship with Israel and its fundamental right to defend itself,” Mr. Harper said. “Our party will never do that. We will always stand by [Israel].”

Both he and the Liberal leader addressed a sold-out crowd of 1,000 at the event hosted by the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee. It was held at the Royal Conservatory of Music.

The Liberals have a long association with the Canadian Jewish community and, as a defender of Israel, “does not do code,” said Mr. Ignatieff.

“I disagree with Mr. Harper about just about everything,” he said. “We have plenty to disagree upon. We have plenty we can use to run an election campaign on. Let us not run an election campaign on who’s the better support of the state of Israel,” he said.
Canada ?will always stand by? Israel, Harper says | Posted | National Post

Liberal and Conservative support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity are part of the reason why Amnesty International slammed Canada in this recent report:

The Report:
http://www.amnesty.ca/files/HRA.pdf

Press Release and Overview:
Reclaiming Canada's role as leader on human rights | Human Rights Agenda 2011

Tell your buddies to stop shooting rockets at Israel, and negitiations may start a lot faster than they will now. In the Mid-East every country is in chaos, except the only democratic country Israel. You are obviously on the wrong side.

 

[earth_as_one]

What an idiotic assumption that because I am against Israeli war criminals, I must therefore be supportive of Palestinian war criminals.

I've never made a post supportive of Palestinian war crimes. When Palestinian war criminals fire missiles in the general direction of Israeli civilians, I'm on the side of Israeli civilians.

 

[CDNBear]

I've never made a post supportive of Palestinian war crimes.

True, but you try and justify, and excuse things like stealing aid shipments, and say things like Hamas is more honest.

So it really is half dozen of one, and six of the other.

 

[Colpy]

What an idiotic assumption that because I am against Israeli war criminals, I must therefore be supportive of Palestinian war criminals.

I've never made a post supportive of Palestinian war crimes. When Palestinian war criminals fire missiles in the general direction of Israeli civilians, I'm on the side of Israeli civilians.

Easily proven....

Did you, or did you not provide a link to a opinion piece in Le Monde that claimed all the 800,000 Palestinian refugees were driven from Israel???

Did you, or have you ever, given a second thought to the 800,000 Jewish refugees driven from Arab nations?

You have repeatedly supported the right of return for Palestinians.....do you, or do you not support compensation paid to Israeli Jewish refugees from Arab lands????

Hmmmmmm

 

[ironsides]

What an idiotic assumption that because I am against Israeli war criminals, I must therefore be supportive of Palestinian war criminals.

I've never made a post supportive of Palestinian war crimes. When Palestinian war criminals fire missiles in the general direction of Israeli civilians, I'm on the side of Israeli civilians.

You do not seem to get it, You are against everything Israel seems to do when they try and defend themselves against Hamas terrorist attacks. It is not Israel who starts the shooting, but some terrorist Hamas units who decide things are to quiet so they must provoke Israel into doing something. If I saw someone using my backyard as a rocket launching site and I was peaceful and innocent as you say, I would do something to stop them. If I just stood by and watched, I would be as guilty as those shooting the rockets.