Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

[EagleSmack]

Sounds like you take a sadistic pleasure in this sort of carnage. I don't.

Sure you do. You LOVE the possibilities. You can tell by the excitement in your posts.

Paraphrasing you...

"A new Egyptian Govt. that won't stand by and watch Israeli atrocities."

You are bubbly that the 30 year peace may come to an end and that Israel and Egypt can get down to business in the Sinai.

But if Israel does start a war with its neighbors, I expect the results will be more similar to events of 2006 rather than 1967 which also resulted in destroyed tanks and armored vehicles:

IF... IF... there is a new hostile Egyptian government that breaks the Peace Treaty and moves into the Sinai you may have some of your dream realized. There will be war and the results will be the same as they always were over there. Total Israeli dominance and tens of thousands of dead Egyptian men rotting in the desert.

 

[darkbeaver]

^ Feb 03 09:29

THE WRETCHEDNESS OF TONY BLAIR’S POLICIES



Last week, Blair was asked about the popular uprising in Egypt during an interview on BBC Radio 4. He made clear his distaste for Arab self-determination and revolution, especially if the result doesn’t serve Western and Israeli interests, saying, “When you’re actually looking at how this evolution takes place, you are aware that it’s got to place in a stable way.” Blair also suggested that Arab human rights and freedoms sometimes have to take a backseat to “stability,” since world leaders (like his former self) are all “in the difficult position” of balancing the desire “to see change” in authoritarian regimes supported by the West with having that change “happen in a way that keeps the region together.”



“happen in a way that keeps the region together.” Can't let an already together part of the full spectrum get detached when everything was going so smoothly. So democracy is off the table for the near future. Many many people are about to die for smooth democratic transitions by the actions of the self celebrated guardians of modern democracy itself. And they will swear to that on TV these heroic guardians of democracy.

 

[Colpy]

earth_as_one;1376593]Its true that Israeli and Egyptian leaders and elites have a warm relationship. Israel supported Mubarak's iron fisted rule which oppressed 80 million Egyptians while Egypt supported Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. They've probably toured each others torture chambers and traded tips regarding the latest interrogation techniques over cocktails.

Except....Israel doesn't use torture.......except in the fevered recesses of your Jew-hating fantasies.

earth_as_one;1376593] I doubt this warm relationship will continue after Egyptians elect a government which represents the will of the people.

And as someone who claims to be a pacifist, I would think that would concern you........but no, I guess not.

 

[ironsides]

Sounds like you take a sadistic pleasure in this sort of carnage. I don't.

But if Israel does start a war with its neighbors, I expect the results will be more similar to events of 2006 rather than 1967 which also resulted in destroyed tanks and armored vehicles:

YouTube - Failure of Israels Merkava Tank 1/4

BTW, I agree with HRW:

Hezbollah's Rockets and Civilian Casualties | Human Rights Watch

If Israel wants to get along with a free Egypt they should stop committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Israel would have far fewer problems with their neighbors when Palestinians have freedom and justice and started obeying international laws and treaties:

The International committee of the Red Cross
What does the law say about the establishment of settlements in occupied territory?

It won't be a Israeli preemptive strike this time, it will be more like a strike by Israel to end this once and for all, Cairo, Tehran for example will cease to exist, all in the blink of an eye. Who's fault will it be, people like Palestinian supporters and terrorists. The UN will step in again, but it will be to late for those living in those cities. Maybe the UN will stop being so one sided by then.

 

[EagleSmack]

And as someone who claims to be a pacifist, I would think that would concern you........but no, I guess not.

Heck no it doesn't concern him. He wants a new Egyptian government that will be hostile to Israel.

This 30 Peace "Thing" between Egypt and Israel has gone on far too long for the likes of EAO.

It's time to get busy in the Sinai. He came up with those pictures of blown up Israeli tanks and APC's pretty quick didn't he?

How many Egyptians died in these Arab Wars of folly?

Apparently not enough for EAO.

 

[darkbeaver]

Living under a repressive dictatorial regime is not peace, it's prison.

 

[EagleSmack]

Living under a repressive dictatorial regime is not peace, it's prison.

Which pretty much sums up every Arab nation in the Middle East.

But in hindsight... your post does not make much sense. However I can understand "Darkbeaver" speech and have an idea of what you are trying to say.

 

[darkbeaver]

It only couldn't make sense, if you didn't know what peace was.

 

[EagleSmack]

It only couldn't make sense, if you didn't know what peace was.

LOL. See what I mean?

 

[Cliffy]

You war mongers slay me. You only support freedom and democracy if it is friendly to US interests. If it isn't you go in and assassinate or pay others to assassinate elected officials and set up your own puppet regimes that are usually oppressive and brutal and are all indignant when the people rise up against the oppressors. Then you have the nerve to accuse anybody who does not support your narcissitic views that the world should cow tow to Yanky interests. I would think your finger pointing is more about deflecting blame from yourself than any truth in your accusations of the motivations of others. Your training as a cold blooded killer, smack, is telling. perhaps you should look in the mirror because I think your finger pointing at EAO is called mirroring by psychologists.

 

[EagleSmack]

You war mongers slay me. You only support freedom and democracy if it is friendly to US interests. If it isn't you go in and assassinate or pay others to assassinate elected officials and set up your own puppet regimes that are usually oppressive and brutal and are all indignant when the people rise up against the oppressors. Then you have the nerve to accuse anybody who does not support your narcissitic views that the world should cow tow to Yanky interests. I would think your finger pointing is more about deflecting blame from yourself than any truth in your accusations of the motivations of others. Your training as a cold blooded killer, smack, is telling. perhaps you should look in the mirror because I think your finger pointing at EAO is called mirroring by psychologists.

Who's the War Monger? Perhaps you should learn to read AND comprehend. Try it.

As for the rest of this... why bother. You are all over the map and have no clear direction. False statements, conspiracies, embellishments, etc.


Oh...except the "training as a cold blooded killer"... that was cool. I liked that.

 

[Cliffy]

Who's the War Monger? Perhaps you should learn to read AND comprehend. Try it.

As for the rest of this... why bother. You are all over the map and have no clear direction. False statements, conspiracies, embellishments, etc.


Oh...except the "training as a cold blooded killer"... that was cool. I liked that.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[EagleSmack]

Thanks for proving my point.

Really? You had a point? lol

 

[earth_as_one]

Except....Israel doesn't use torture.......except in the fevered recesses of your Jew-hating fantasies.
And as someone who claims to be a pacifist, I would think that would concern you........but no, I guess not.

You should at least google your claims first. Israeli authorities not only routinely practice torture, its also approved by the Israeli supreme court.

BBC

Israel admits tortureAn official Israeli report has acknowledged for the first time that the Israeli security service tortured detainees during the Palestinian uprising, the Intifada, between 1988 and 1992.

The report, written five years ago but kept secret until now, said the leadership of the security service Shin Bet knew about the torture but did nothing to stop it...

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Israel admits torture

Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

Until the 1999 High Court of Justice ruling of 1999, the Israeli security forces tortured thousands of Palestinian detainees each year. According to PCATI's estimates, almost all interrogees during this period of time were the victims of at least one form of torture during their interrogation.

The GSS interrogation process was not regulated in law but was conducted according to the recommendations of the Landau Commission. Only a part of the Landau Commission report has been published, the section detailing interrogation methods remains classified.
Methods of interrogation and torture used by the GSS included:

• Binding in painful position for hours over consecutive days while covering the head of the interrogee with a wet, foul-smelling sack.
• Beating.
• Shaking (shaking the body and head of the detainee back and forth by a GSS agent who grabs the interrogee by the shoulders or shirt).
• Sleep prevention and withholding of food.
• Exposure to cold or heat.
• Binding to a small, slanted chair.
• Verbal abuse, cursing and psychological humiliation.
• Exposure to loud music.
• Threats against the detainee or his family.
• Prevention of basic hygienic conditions and changes of clothes.
• Isolation from the outside world (including from attorneys and family members) at times for months.

All of the above resulted in psychological and physical harm to detainees which at times was irreversible, and in several cases led to death...

1990-1999 | ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????

A Palestinian detainee can be interrogated for a total period of 180 days, during which he/she can also be denied lawyer visits for a period of 90 days. During the interrogation period, a detainee is often subjected to some form of torture ranging in extremity, whether physical or psychological. The use of practices that constitute torture during interrogation has been legalized within the Israeli judicial system and permitted in individual cases in which the GSS deems a detainee a threat to state security or a ‘ticking bomb’. In some instances, detainees have died while in custody as a result of torture. Confessions extracted through torture are admissible in Israeli court.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/pal-prisoners.html

You can check their evidence at:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/torture.html

Torture was also routine in Egypt during Mubarak's 30 year rule:

The government continued to use state of emergency powers to detain peaceful critics and opponents as well as people suspected of security offences or involvement in terrorism. Some were held under administrative detention orders; others were sentenced to prison terms after unfair trials before military courts. Torture and other ill-treatment remained widespread in police cells, security police detention centres and prisons, and in most cases were committed with impunity.

Egypt - Amnesty International Report 2010 | Amnesty International

I admit Israel isn't the world's most oppressed and unjust country. I'm claiming that Israel is the most oppressed and unjust country that Canada unshakably supports.


I don't support war except in self defense. Even when a country oppresses, bombs and starves millions of people, I don't support another national taking unilateral action. Only the UN should be able to authorize force in these cases. However every free nation has the right to link economic relations to human rights including a free Egypt.

Crunch time! When it counts...

Who really supports freedom, justice and democracy
vs
Who claims they support freedom, justice and democracy but really don't.

...

Unexpected, but this thread has been enlightening regarding which regulars here on this forum support oppression and injustice.

 

[ironsides]

Oh my god, those poor baby's, and all they did was kill. rape, and otherwise treat Israeli citizens with utmost respect.

"In today's Jerusalem Post (March 22, 2007) there is a worrisome article by Yisrael Medad, entitled "Raping as 'resistance'". A gang of Arab youths have committed a series of rapes in the Galilee area. According to this gang, the rapes were perpetrated as a form of nationalist vengeance against IDF operations in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

The innocent young Jewish girls are physically attacked and violently raped. It is not because they are provocatively dressed. Their sole "provocation" is being Jewish!

Humanitarian groups in Israel and abroad, which define themselves as Liberal or Left, have been rightfully vociferous in condemning rape used in the course of war, as in Bosnia, Rwanda, the Congo and Darfur.

WHY THE APPARENT SILENCE WHEN JEWISH WOMEN ARE RAPED?"

Beyond Babylon: Arab terrorists raping Jews in Israel



"* Binding in painful position for hours over consecutive days while covering the head of the interrogee with a wet, foul-smelling sack.
* Beating.
* Shaking (shaking the body and head of the detainee back and forth by a GSS agent who grabs the interrogee by the shoulders or shirt).
* Sleep prevention and withholding of food.
* Exposure to cold or heat.
* Binding to a small, slanted chair.
* Verbal abuse, cursing and psychological humiliation.
* Exposure to loud music.
* Threats against the detainee or his family.
* Prevention of basic hygienic conditions and changes of clothes.
* Isolation from the outside world (including from attorneys and family members) at times for months."

You forgot being put in a tube like pan and covered in ice, till you almost lose conscious.


You have obviously never gone thru military training. Thats not torture, but training. Makes man out of you.

 

[earth_as_one]

I am against rape and I support prosecuting rapists to the full extent of the law.

However your link is to a blog regarding a letter in the JP where someone claims this has happened.

Somehow I doubt that roving gangs of Arab boys are prowling Jewish neighborhoods in Israel and gang raping Jewish girls and everyone is being silent about it. That's not to say that a Jewish girl has never been raped by an Arab boy. Its just that I understand the Israeli criminal justice system has a very broad definition of rape when it comes to Arab men and Jewish women.

20.07.10
Arab man who posed as Jew to seduce woman convicted of rape
Sabbar Kashur, 30, was found guilty of rape by deception and sentenced to 18 months in prison.
Arab man who posed as Jew to seduce woman convicted of rape - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[ironsides]

You war mongers slay me. You only support freedom and democracy if it is friendly to US interests. If it isn't you go in and assassinate or pay others to assassinate elected officials and set up your own puppet regimes that are usually oppressive and brutal and are all indignant when the people rise up against the oppressors. Then you have the nerve to accuse anybody who does not support your narcissitic views that the world should cow tow to Yanky interests. I would think your finger pointing is more about deflecting blame from yourself than any truth in your accusations of the motivations of others. Your training as a cold blooded killer, smack, is telling. perhaps you should look in the mirror because I think your finger pointing at EAO is called mirroring by psychologists.

Guess you haven't heard the expression "America first" . It is well know that what ever is best for America would be best for the world. Why shouldn't the world have the same freedoms and wealth we have. There is no logical reason you would want to deprive them of that. We have not gotten involved in what is happening in Egypt so far.

 

[Cliffy]

Guess you haven't heard the expression "America first" . It is well know that what ever is best for America would be best for the world. Why shouldn't the world have the same freedoms and wealth we have. There is no logical reason you would want to deprive them of that. We have not gotten involved in what is happening in Egypt so far.

Is that why you have been supporting, training and financing vicious dictators and their death squads for almost, if not more than, 100 years all over the globe? Sorry, but the Patriot Act supersedes any freedoms you thought you had and in case you haven't noticed, your country is broke from all this war mongering.

 

[gopher]

''if Mubarak is outed, the vacuum will be filled by Islamists. That's all. Just an opinion. Hope I'm wrong''

If you watch nightly news such as Fox, NBC, ABC, or whatever, you might the impression the Islamist cult will take over. However, if you watch BBC, Deutsche Welle, and al-Jazeera you would get a completely different picture. Why? Two reasons: (1) because they know the region far better than does the USA media; (2) because they do not have a pro war agenda and are only interested in the truth.

Conventional news media are, as always, eager to foment war. These latter sources have no such inclination.

About two hours ago I was watching a news conference held in the UK. The panelists there all said that the Islamist cult is only a small group whose roles up to now have been totally insignificant. While there is a remote [a VERY remote] possibility that its influence may grow some day, there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for the hysteria being promoted today about some huge surge in their popularity and influence. This hysteria was said to be fomented by certain forces who are intent in promoting further USA interventionism in that region. An intervention, they said, which would be counter productive as the majority insurgents are moderates and middle class.

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''Why shouldn't the world have the same freedoms and wealth we have.''

That would entail the return of resources stolen from the Third World by the West.

 

[petros]

I'm more concerned about the non denominational churches that have appeared out of no where in Canada that preach fear based politics rather than alleged Christianity.

Just imagine if those crackpots ever gained control in Ottawa. We might see our nation's wealth handed over to scam artists.