Enough farting around on Iran & Nukes

Iran should have Nuke Weapons


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Are you talking about Iran or a G20 meeting?

I think he was referring to people captured in battle in Iraq or Afghanistan who were denied POW status and ended up being tortured at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay or various other black sites where detainees have no rights.

Maybe he's referring to the people the US abducts illegally in places like Italy, where they are sent to torture facilities in Egypt and elsewhere.

Or he could be referring to Canada's allie Israel, which holds thousands of people in their torture chambers including women and children, without any charges, because they are related to people of interest or belong to a political party Israel doesn't like. AKA political prisoners.

Yes that's terrible and should be condemned. Otherwise we'd be holding Iran to a higher standard than the US and Israel.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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We torture our own here too with gasses, noxious plant extracts and high voltage electricity.

When humans and ridiculous weapons are no longer resources traded on the NYSE,TSX, etc, I'll have restored faith in the Western perspective.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Iran is on the verge of destroying itself, to many Iranians are fed up with this all controlling government.

Some Iranians are unhappy with the government. But the country is hardly on the verge of destroying itself.

Some circumstantial evidence exists supporting claims the last election was fraudulent. (pre-election polls did not predict the outcome, some polling station results came in faster than expected and statistical analysis indicates human generated random numbers rather than truly random numbers) As a result of this circumstantial evidence, nearly all western governments condemned the election as a fraud. The US, Israel and other western powers fund efforts to destabilize Iran which including encouraging dissent, anti-government protests and support for anti-Iran terrorist organizations. Also, Iranian scientists, military personnel and politicians have been the targets of many assassinations. Some were successful.

Normally this would be condemned as an act of terrorism. But since it happened in Iran, they are "daring bomb attacks".
Israel, West behind Tehran bombings: Iran
Nuclear scientist killed in Tehran attack
November 29, 2010
The Associated Press

Iran's president accused Israel and the West of being behind a pair of daring bomb attacks that killed one nuclear scientist and wounded another in their cars on the streets of Tehran on Monday....
Read more: CBC News - World - Israel, West behind Tehran bombings: Iran
So how are we better than the terrorists again? What is it that they do, that we don't do? If Canadian nuclear scientists were being assassinated the same way in downtown Ottawa, I suspect the CBC would not use the phrase "daring bomb attacks".

Meanwhile, the evidence regarding election fraud in every election in both Iraq and Afghanistan is overwhelming since they were conquered by the US and its allies. (stuffed ballot boxes, people voting multiple times, poll results which were 100% for one candidate, children and dead people casting votes...) Yet nearly all western powers recognized the election results and few condemned these elections as fraudulent.

There's that double standard again.

If you want to talk about countries with unpopular governments on the verge of destroying themselves, I'd say Afghanistan and Iraq are better candidates than Iran. Both countries have violent popular uprisings which seem to be gaining in strength.

Then there are all the Arab dictatorships which are almost never criticized by our news or leaders.

Take Saudi Arabia as an example. Its an Absolute Monarchy where dissenters are routinely tortured and executed by beheading. Many Saudis are pretty unhappy that most of their country's oil wealth go toward sustaining the lavish lifestyles of tens of thousands of hereditary princes. But there is little the average Saudi can do about it, since they have no voice or power.

Or how about Egypt ? Its a military dictatorship where popular opposition parties are banned. If it wasn't for the billions the US gives in bribe money (keep peace with Israel) and arms to support the dictator, Egyptians would have gotten rid of Mubarak years ago.

I bet the Saudis and the Egyptians are watching the events unfold in Tunisia very closely.

As long as Iran respects the mandatory parts of the NPT, I'll speak in favor of their nuclear program. I don't believe Iran wants nuclear weapons at this time. They claim they want a peaceful civilian nuclear program and I'm inclined to believe them based on their actions. If they wanted nuclear weapons, they should have detonated one by now. Since they don't have nuclear weapons, its a pretty safe assumption they aren't trying to acquire them. What they have is a NPT compliant nuclear weapon break out capability. A line exists and they haven't crossed it. Now that could change if they are attacked. If they are attacked with nuclear weapons, even small ones, then they would be completely justified in acquiring nukes as quickly as possible and hitting back with crude ones capable of taking out cities.

The status quo appears to be Mutual Assured Destruction. As long as Israel, the US and other countries which don't like Iran's Theocracy don't directly attack Iran, they have no need to fear Iranian nukes.
 
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Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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We torture our own here too with gasses, noxious plant extracts and high voltage electricity.

When humans and ridiculous weapons are no longer resources traded on the NYSE,TSX, etc, I'll have restored faith in the Western perspective.
Ok - I will cut back on the baked beans and beer - Well maybe the beans but not the beer. Fair???
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has been gamed by Iran. As a result the NPT has become irrelevant. A new world is being born in which nuclear weapons technology and ballistic missile technology spread to many nations and non-state actors.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has been gamed by Iran. As a result the NPT has become irrelevant. A new world is being born in which nuclear weapons technology and ballistic missile technology spread to many nations and non-state actors.

I disagree that NPT compliant Iran is a problem.. Most countries including Iran signed and respect all the mandatory parts of the NPT. If the US and Israel weren't threatening to attack Iran, Iran might even comply with all the voluntary NPT protocols. As far as I know, the only voluntary NPT protocol Iran did not meet was related to a failure to involve the NPT in the planning stages of new nuclear facilities. Instead they let the IAEA know only a year in advance of installing equipment. That facility is still just a hole in the ground, with no equipment in it.

The countries which are the biggest NPT violators are the nuclear weapon possessing nations. As per the mandatory part of the NPT, they are required to reduce and eliminate their nuclear arsenals and not research new ones. While they have made progress reducing their arsenals, they still haven't eliminated them and most continue nuclear weapon research. Also nuke weapon possessing nations countries aren't supposed to threaten non-nuke nations with a nuclear attack, like the US did with Iraq in 2003.

Also treaties like this have to be universally applied to be effective. The non-NPT signatories which possess nukes are:
India, Israel, North Korea and Pakistan. Yet only North Korea faces sanctions. Also the US is outsourcing nuclear fuel reprocessing to India to save money. (Yet another violation of the NPT)

FYI: Don't take my word on this. The main parts of the NPT are pretty straight forward. Read it for yourself and make up your own mind about who is really violating the NPT:
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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I disagree that NPT compliant Iran is a problem.. Most countries including Iran signed and respect all the mandatory parts of the NPT. If the US and Israel weren't threatening to attack Iran, Iran might even comply with all the voluntary NPT protocols. As far as I know, the only voluntary NPT protocol Iran did not meet was related to a failure to involve the NPT in the planning stages of new nuclear facilities. Instead they let the IAEA know only a year in advance of installing equipment. That facility is still just a hole in the ground, with no equipment in it.

The countries which are the biggest NPT violators are the nuclear weapon possessing nations. As per the mandatory part of the NPT, they are required to reduce and eliminate their nuclear arsenals and not research new ones. While they have made progress reducing their arsenals, they still haven't eliminated them and most continue nuclear weapon research. Also nuke weapon possessing nations countries aren't supposed to threaten non-nuke nations with a nuclear attack, like the US did with Iraq in 2003.

Also treaties like this have to be universally applied to be effective. The non-NPT signatories which possess nukes are:
India, Israel, North Korea and Pakistan. Yet only North Korea faces sanctions. Also the US is outsourcing nuclear fuel reprocessing to India to save money. (Yet another violation of the NPT)

FYI: Don't take my word on this. The main parts of the NPT are pretty straight forward. Read it for yourself and make up your own mind about who is really violating the NPT:
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thank you for the well reasoned response. Yet I beg to differ. There is no proof of the sort that would be conclusive in a court of law that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons. But there is similarly no evidence that would be conclusive in a court of law that Israel has nuclear weapons. But this isn't a court of law. This is a matter of opinion. I believe Israe has nuclear weapons in all likelihood. I also believe that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.

After El Baradei left as head of the IAEA he was replaced by a Japanese citizen who issued a report saying that Iran was in violation of its disclosure obligations under the NPT. Please don't make me hunt for it, but if you insist I will take the time to track it down. Its a paragraph in the late 2009 period.

America isn't going to attack Iran. America is involved in a form of civil war. That is the only conflict of any importance to most Americans. If Obama tried to attack Iran he would only get Americans killed for nothing because he is an inexperienced incompetent.

There is a movement in America to return to isolationism. I agree with that position. The only way to save America from a future nuclear attack is to make America as small a target as possible. So America must withdraw from the eastern hemisphere completely toward that end. Sorry to ramble.

Oh, one other thing. The international order established by Western powers is ending. A new international established by China and other rising powers will replace the Western order. As evidence of this I direct your attention to the role of China, India, Brazil and South Africa in frustrating European, American and Canadian ambitions at the Copenhagen Global Warming Conference in December of 2009.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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I think he was referring to people captured in battle in Iraq or Afghanistan who were denied POW status and ended up being tortured at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay or various other black sites where detainees have no rights.

Maybe he's referring to the people the US abducts illegally in places like Italy, where they are sent to torture facilities in Egypt and elsewhere.

Or he could be referring to Canada's allie Israel, which holds thousands of people in their torture chambers including women and children, without any charges, because they are related to people of interest or belong to a political party Israel doesn't like. AKA political prisoners.

Yes that's terrible and should be condemned. Otherwise we'd be holding Iran to a higher standard than the US and Israel.

You do not fight in a war without a identifying uniform, dress like a civilian be lucky your a prisoner of any kind. Gitmo is a resort compared to what they do to uniformed soldiers they catch. That is why they are terrorists. Geneva convention approves of Gitmo type prisons for those captured fighting without uniforms. It is Iran who is threatening Israel and has been every since Ayatollah Khomeini took over, not the other way around. Yes it is terrible that you think like that. You should be bowing down to your countrymen who gave you the rights those you condemn do not have.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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You do not fight in a war without a identifying uniform, dress like a civilian be lucky your a prisoner of any kind. Gitmo is a resort compared to what they do to uniformed soldiers they catch. That is why they are terrorists. Geneva convention approves of Gitmo type prisons for those captured fighting without uniforms. It is Iran who is threatening Israel and has been every since Ayatollah Khomeini took over, not the other way around. Yes it is terrible that you think like that. You should be bowing down to your countrymen who gave you the rights those you condemn do not have.

RE: Geneva convention approves of Gitmo type prisons
I can't find any references in international law which approve torture and summary execution. I did find this:
United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt my "countrymen" ever thought they were fighting for the right of the US and Israeli government to abduct children and political prisoners. I suspect that most Canadians who found themselves interned in a POW camp would not approve of Gitmo style torture and summary execution.

I think its disgraceful that someone would try to claim fellow Canadians fought for the right of governments to commit atrocities. My countrymen including my grandfather fought against tyranny and injustice in favor of freedom and justice.

I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence. I condemn war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. What rights do I have, that war criminals do not have?
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Thank you for the well reasoned response. Yet I beg to differ. There is no proof of the sort that would be conclusive in a court of law that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons. But there is similarly no evidence that would be conclusive in a court of law that Israel has nuclear weapons. But this isn't a court of law. This is a matter of opinion. I believe Israe has nuclear weapons in all likelihood. I also believe that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.

After El Baradei left as head of the IAEA he was replaced by a Japanese citizen who issued a report saying that Iran was in violation of its disclosure obligations under the NPT. Please don't make me hunt for it, but if you insist I will take the time to track it down. Its a paragraph in the late 2009 period.

America isn't going to attack Iran. America is involved in a form of civil war. That is the only conflict of any importance to most Americans. If Obama tried to attack Iran he would only get Americans killed for nothing because he is an inexperienced incompetent.

There is a movement in America to return to isolationism. I agree with that position. The only way to save America from a future nuclear attack is to make America as small a target as possible. So America must withdraw from the eastern hemisphere completely toward that end. Sorry to ramble.

Oh, one other thing. The international order established by Western powers is ending. A new international established by China and other rising powers will replace the Western order. As evidence of this I direct your attention to the role of China, India, Brazil and South Africa in frustrating European, American and Canadian ambitions at the Copenhagen Global Warming Conference in December of 2009.

Some differences between Israeli and Iranian nuclear programs.

Israel has not signed the NPT and has been deliberately vague about possessing nuclear weapons.

Iran has signed the NPT, is compliant with all mandatory parts of the NPT and has made clear statements that they do no not seek nuclear weapons.

Iran has violated voluntary, confidence building disclosure requirements, but none of the mandatory requirements.

I think people are having a hard time figuring out the difference between voluntary and mandatory.

mandatory: Required by law or rules; compulsory

voluntary: Done or undertaken of one's own free will

As you can see the two words have two completely different meanings. I've noticed how the meaning of voluntary often appears to have the same meaning as mandatory when applied to Iran's nuclear program.

As far as Iran's failure to disclose is concerned, Iran wasn't hiding a functioning nuclear weapons factory. Iran failed to disclose a hole they were digging. As per the voluntary confidence building part of the NPT, Iran failed to inform the IAEA during the planning stages before they started digging. Instead Iran decided to inform the IAEA that they were digging a hole after they started digging. At the time of the Iran's voluntary disclosure, the hole was still being dug and they were at least a year away from installing any equipment, let alone going into production. Their decision not to involve the IAEA during the planning stages probably had something to do with US and Israeli threats to bomb Iran's other NPT compliant facilities. Meanwhile every part of Iran's active nuclear program is closely monitored by the IAEA and many parts of it are open for public tours.

Most experts recognize that non-compliance with an NPT safeguards agreement is not equivalent to a violation of the NPT or does not automatically constitute a violation of the NPT itself.[291][292] The IAEA does not make determinations regarding compliance with the NPT,[293] and the U.N. Security Council does not have a responsibility to adjudicate treaty violations.[294] [297]
Nuclear program of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare that violation with Israeli violations of the NPT. They don't allow any IAEA inspections and they've never disclosed any nuclear facility locations.
Nuclear weapons and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no problem condemning Iran's appalling human right's record and its medieval criminal justice system. But I disagree with double standards. Let me know when Iran:

1) imprisons millions of civilians behind razor wire topped walls with guard towers
2) lays waste to civilian infrastructure.
3) blocks humanitarian food and medical aid
4) un-signs itself from the NPT and tosses out the inspectors
5) commits war crimes and crimes against humanity

Until then, Iran is far more NPT compliant and far less of a threat to world peace than Israel.

Other issues:

When are the nuclear weapon powers going to eliminate their nuclear arsenals? That part of the NPT is mandatory. Kind of Ironic that of the countries pressing for sanctions against NPT compliant Iran, only Germany is NPT compliant.

What right does Israel have to press Iran for 100% compliance with a treaty they haven't even signed?

I would agree that the NPT is becoming irrelevant. But I don't blame Iran. I blame the misuse of the NPT by NPT violators to interfere with Iran's legal NPT compliant nuclear program as the main problem.

The majority of the UN supports Iran's legal NPT compliant nuclear program:

On September 16, 2006, in Havana, Cuba, all of the 118 Non-Aligned Movement member countries, at the summit level, declared their support of Iran's civilian nuclear program in their final written statement.[482] The Non-Aligned Movement represents a majority of the 192 countries comprising the entire United Nations.

On July 30, 2008, the Non-Aligned Movement welcomed the continuing cooperation of Iran with the IAEA and reaffirmed Iran's right to the peaceful uses of nuclear technology. The movement further called for the establishment of a nuclear weapons free zone in the Middle East and called for a comprehensive multilaterally negotiated instrument which prohibits threats of attacks on nuclear facilities devoted to peaceful uses of nuclear energy.[483]
Nuclear program of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Colpy

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RE: Geneva convention approves of Gitmo type prisons
I can't find any references in international law which approve torture and summary execution. I did find this:
United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt my "countrymen" ever thought they were fighting for the right of the US and Israeli government to abduct children and political prisoners. I suspect that most Canadians who found themselves interned in a POW camp would not approve of Gitmo style torture and summary execution.

I think its disgraceful that someone would try to claim fellow Canadians fought for the right of governments to commit atrocities. My countrymen including my grandfather fought against tyranny and injustice in favor of freedom and justice.

I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence. I condemn war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. What rights do I have, that war criminals do not have?

I would agree that water boarding is torture, and as such, is well beyond the Pale.

My understanding is that these practices have stopped.

Who, exactly, has been "summarily executed"????

Now, it is easy to criticize, but I ask: what would you do with the remaining prisoners????

Personally, I think the remaining prisoners should all be packed up and flown back to their respective home countries..............

Only Omar Khadr would survive the experience.
 
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ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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RE: Geneva convention approves of Gitmo type prisons
I can't find any references in international law which approve torture and summary execution. I did find this:
United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt my "countrymen" ever thought they were fighting for the right of the US and Israeli government to abduct children and political prisoners. I suspect that most Canadians who found themselves interned in a POW camp would not approve of Gitmo style torture and summary execution.

I think its disgraceful that someone would try to claim fellow Canadians fought for the right of governments to commit atrocities. My countrymen including my grandfather fought against tyranny and injustice in favor of freedom and justice.

I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence. I condemn war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. What rights do I have, that war criminals do not have?
Nobody at Gitmo was summarily executed, that is just another off the wall comment you so say so often that ruins credibility and tries to switch the topic. Did I mention any U.N resolutions, no because I do not accept most of them exactly as people like you state they say. I did not mention anything about torture, because something as simple as sleep deprivation is considered cruel and inhuman punishment in your eyes. I do not consider what happened at Gitmo torture, I didn't hear of anyone being put on the rack, or put into a iron maiden, insulted, humiliated maybe, but that is not my definition of torture. Guantánamo Bay prison will not close, it is a perfect place to hold cowardly terrorist combatants who fight in civilian and women's clothes. The U.S. Congress will not give President Obama funding for a prison to be renovated or built for them in the U.S. They will be regulated to places like Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. I doubt that any of your "countrymen appreciate your thoughts about what they think nor what they approve or don't approve of. The rest of your statement "I think its disgraceful that someone would try to claim Canadian fought in support of the right of governments to commit atrocities." It in itself warrents no response other than again did I mention anything about it..



I know.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
5,732
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Santa Cruz, California
Hi friends,

First of all, I reject wikipedia as a substantive source on anything except dates of birth and death. It's just a matter of intellectual honesty. Sorry, but that's just me.

Instead, this is the type of analysis that I am interested in: International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Nuclear Proliferation: The Next Wave If someone wants to go deep in the tall grass with me, wikipedia is not the source to be used.

I asked that I not be forced to go to get the IAEA report. I asked that my word be taken. Obviously, my word wasn't good enough. So I have taken the time to go to the source:

"F. Summary​
26. The Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material in Iran. Iran has
cooperated with the Agency in improving safeguards measures at FEP and in providing the Agency
with access to the IR-40 reactor for purposes of design information verification. Iran has not, however,
implemented the modified text of its Subsidiary Arrangements General Part, Code 3.1, on the early
provision of design information.
27. Iran has not suspended its enrichment related activities or its work on heavy water related
projects as required by the Security Council.
28. Contrary to the requests of the Board of Governors and the Security Council, Iran has neither
implemented the Additional Protocol nor cooperated with the Agency in connection with the
remaining issues of concern which need to be clarified to exclude the possibility of military
dimensions to Iran’s nuclear programme. Regrettably, the Agency has not been able to engage Iran in
any substantive discussions about these outstanding issues for over a year. The Agency believes that it
has provided Iran with sufficient access to documentation in its possession to enable Iran to respond
substantively to the questions raised by the Agency. However, the Director General urges Member
States which have provided documentation to the Agency to work out new modalities with the Agency
so that it could share further documentation with Iran, as appropriate, since the Agency’s inability to
do so is rendering it difficult for the Agency to progress further in its verification process.
29. It is critical for Iran to implement the Additional Protocol and clarify the outstanding issues in
order for the Agency to be in a position to provide credible assurance about the absence of undeclared
nuclear material and activities in Iran.​
30. The Director General will continue to report as appropriate."

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2009/gov2009-55.pdf


I apologize for being testy. After all I am an American, and we are not a very happy breed.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Hmmm.....

The difference between Israel having nukes and Iran having nukes is the difference between Ms. Gifford having a Glock and Jared Loughner having a Glock.

Israel is sane.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I admit I'm speculating about what happened at Abu Ghraib and other black sites where US abducted people are locked up. There is no information available about how many people were detained, their condition and treatment. However what is known does support the statement that the US does abduct and torture people and some of these people have not been seen since their abduction. Either they are dead or they are still locked up. The most shocking photographs, evidence and testimony were sealed by Presidential order. (Obama).

Published on Monday, May 10, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
The Crimes at Abu Ghraib Are Not the Worst
by Robert Higgs


Recent days have been hectic ones for the Supreme Rulers in Washington, D.C. President George W. Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld have ceased their accustomed swaggering, put on their most somber faces, and issued one apology after another for the mistreatment of prisoners by U.S. soldiers and mercenaries at Abu Ghraib prison. Although the government had known about these disgusting, sadistic, and idiotic amusements for a long time, Rumsfeld kept a close hold on the information, the better to brush it under the official rug. (We know that the government knew, because the International Committee for the Red Cross, which made several inspections of the prisons in Iraq, confirms that long ago it “told the Americans that what was going on at Abu Ghraib is reprehensible.”) Once the photos got out, of course, more than one kind of hell broke loose, and now the government's top dogs all have their tails tucked shamefully between their legs. South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham warned reporters after Rumsfeld’s Senate interrogation on May 7 that “there’s more to come” and “we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges” against U.S. soldiers and civilian employees in Iraq...
¸The Crimes at Abu Ghraib Are Not the Worst

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk....
Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape' - Telegraph

That's the pictures which weren't released. But you guys should be familiar with these photos:

Looks like summarily executed prisoners to me:




Or this story:

The President’s Power to Order the Extra-Judicial Execution of an American Citizen
By Scott Horton
The President?s Power to Order the Extra-Judicial Execution of an American Citizen?By Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)

Everyone knows the US government tortures and kills people. We don't all agree on whether its legal or justified.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Responsible for killing American citizens, I don't care what his citizenship is. Bring him in dead or alive is an appropriate order. We still don't have him or bin Laden.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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I see EAO's moral relativism is still in good order.

No need for Jurisprudence when Israel of America is involved.