Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


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    42

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Wasn't Jerusalem supposed to be neutral - according to the oft-maligned Res 181?

When Jordan controlled it, it was pretty much an open city, anybody could go there and worship. Actually anyone still can go there as a visitor. As I said before Jordan should have stayed out of the 67 war. We wouldn't have this additional complication if they had. Res. 181 pretty much ceased to exist because of their intervention.
 

Goober

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Report: Israel building Arab ghettos
Arab Association for Human Rights reveals that increasing number of fences and ramparts built to separate Arabs from Jews in Israel

Report: Israel building Arab ghettos - Israel News, Ynetnews

Arab Association for Human Rights - Comparable to Hitlers Theresienstadt -

Quote: Originally Posted by CUBert

Israel is a serious problem and detrimental to peace in the middle east.

construct some sort of sci-fi dome structure over the Gaza strip and west bank capable of withstanding the heat of a thousand suns and cleanse the Zionist cockroaches from the face of the earth with nuclear fire


Ok, I don't know what's going on in this post.. Firstly you make up a lie that I want all Jews nuked... Even if I was vehemently anti-jewish , to nuke all jews would be suicide as jews are scattered all over the world... And anyways, i'm not anti-jewish.... then after that erroneous accusation of racism you've bestowed upon me, you actually begin spewing racist rhetoric !!!!!

My Post with no answer as of yet
That makes you
1 - A Racist

2- A NAZI

3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.

So please explain where I am lying -

I also noted that those that hate Israel, EAO for example never raised a word of outrage - Even those that pretend to be even handed, and hate killing, etc and more such BS

Yet if a Poster that is pro Israel - Anti Hamas/Hezbollah based upon their clearly believing are Terror Organizations whose sole goal is the destruction of Israel and all Jews made such a statement or even the forcible removal of Hamas from Gaza prisons why we would be genocidal murderous freaks and part of the Jewish Controlled Media, as EAO stated - Why people would be all over that poster like stink on a fart.

So the post about Nuking Israel- Can you explain that one. I have asked yet you scurry away.


I have not noted anyone that supports Hamas - Hezbollah condemn this post -

Pick 1 answer please
1 - A Racist

2- A NAZI

3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.

4- Genocidal freaks

5- All of the above
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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When Jordan controlled it, it was pretty much an open city, anybody could go there and worship. Actually anyone still can go there as a visitor. As I said before Jordan should have stayed out of the 67 war. We wouldn't have this additional complication if they had. Res. 181 pretty much ceased to exist because of their intervention.

Jordan may have stayed out of it had it not been for the flood of refugees they ended up having to support. Seems to me I recall Jordan trying the diplomatic approach - but please don't be one of those morons who expect links to memory and 1967 editions of the Telegram
 

Colpy

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Jordan may have stayed out of it had it not been for the flood of refugees they ended up having to support. Seems to me I recall Jordan trying the diplomatic approach - but please don't be one of those morons who expect links to memory and 1967 editions of the Telegram

Actually, Jordan was reluctant to take part........and Israel was working diplomatically to convince them joining with Syria and Egypt was wrong. But in the end, the King lived up to his treaty obligations and attacked.....only to be beaten badly by the Israelis.

As the fighting raged, Prime Minister Levy Eshkol sent the following message to King Hussein of Jordan:
We are engaged in defensive fighting on the Egyptian sector, and we shall not engage ourselves in any action against Jordan, unless Jordan attacks us. Should Jordan attack Israel, we shall go against her with all our might.
However, upon receiving information (later proving false) that Israel was being defeated, King Hussein ordered that Israel be attacked.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/The_Six_Day_War_Forty_Years_On.asp
 
Last edited:

Goober

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Jordan may have stayed out of it had it not been for the flood of refugees they ended up having to support. Seems to me I recall Jordan trying the diplomatic approach - but please don't be one of those morons who expect links to memory and 1967 editions of the Telegram

Jordan prevented Jews from worshipping at the Wall untill they lost they city in 67

Jordanian rule 1948–1967

Jordan affixed a road sign to the Wall


During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the Old City together with the Wall was captured by Jordan. Article VIII of the 1949 Armistice Agreement provided for Israeli Jewish access to the Western Wall. However for the following nineteen years, despite numerous requests by Israeli officials and Jewish groups to the United Nations and other international bodies to attempt to enforce the armistice agreement, Jordan refused to abide by this clause as part of a policy of Islamization.[51] Some sources claim Jews could only visit the wall if they traveled through Jordan (which was not an option for Israelis) and did not have an Israeli visa stamped in their passports.[52] Others say Jordan even barred non-Israeli Jews, demanding that tourists present a certificate of baptism before a visa would be granted.[51][53][54] Only Jordanian soldiers and tourists were to be found there. A vantage point on Mount Zion, from where the Wall could be viewed, became the place where Jews gathered to pray. For thousands of pilgrims, the mount, being the closest location to the Wall under Israeli control, became a substitute site for the traditional priestly blessing ceremony which takes place on the Three Pilgrimage Festivals.[55]
[edit] Israeli rule 1967–present

Following Israel's victory during the 1967 Six-Day War, the Western Wall came under Israeli control. Yitzchak Rabin, fifth Prime Minister of Israel, described the moment Israeli soldiers reached the Wall:

Israeli soldiers shortly after the capture of the Wall during the Six-Day War


”There was one moment in the Six-Day War which symbolized the great victory: that was the moment in which the first paratroopers - under Gur's command - reached the stones of the Western Wall, feeling the emotion of the place; there never was, and never will be, another moment like it. Nobody staged that moment. Nobody planned it in advance. Nobody prepared it and nobody was prepared for it; it was as if Providence had directed the whole thing: the paratroopers weeping - loudly and in pain - over their comrades who had fallen along the way, the words of the Kaddish prayer heard by Western Wall's stones after 19 years of silence, tears of mourning, shouts of joy, and the singing of "Hatikvah".[56]
Forty-eight hours after capturing the wall, the military, without explicit government order, hastily proceeded to demolish the entire Moroccan Quarter which stood four metres from the Wall. Chaim Herzog, who later became Israel’s sixth president, took much of the credit for the destruction of the neighbourhood:
”When we visited the Wailing Wall we found a toilet attached to it...we decided to remove it and from this we came to the conclusion that we could evacuate the entire area in front of the Wailing Wall...a historical opportunity that will never return...We knew that the following Saturday, June 14, would be the Jewish festival of Shavouot and that many will want to come to pray...it all had to be completed by then.”[57]
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Damned treaty obligations, eh? One would wonder how unprincipled terrorists would be honourable enough to form (or keep) them. Why were there refugees if Israel was so kind and generous to all living souls anyhow?
 

CUBert

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Quote: Originally Posted by CUBert

Israel is a serious problem and detrimental to peace in the middle east.

Yes, this is true.

construct some sort of sci-fi dome structure over the Gaza strip and west bank capable of withstanding the heat of a thousand suns and cleanse the Zionist cockroaches from the face of the earth with nuclear fire

LOL. Great post. You are interpreting zionist to mean all jews, this isn't correct. This is blatant projecting...
Here's a quote from you

"The Arabs have always been their own worst enemy. The murder, kill, oppress, torture, hang, make families disappear, and then they
start again. "


This is blatant lying or ignorance, not sure which. But definitely racism. Targeting an entire race of people and defaming them like this? This is much worse than my comment.


My Post with no answer as of yet
That makes you
1 - A Racist

2- A NAZI

3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.

This all seems like projecting to me... I don't hate any race, but you seem to have a serious problems with Arabs.

So please explain where I am lying -

I also noted that those that hate Israel, EAO for example never raised a word of outrage - Even those that pretend to be even handed, and hate killing, etc and more such BS

Yet if a Poster that is pro Israel - Anti Hamas/Hezbollah based upon their clearly believing are Terror Organizations whose sole goal is the destruction of Israel and all Jews made such a statement or even the forcible removal of Hamas from Gaza prisons why we would be genocidal murderous freaks and part of the Jewish Controlled Media, as EAO stated - Why people would be all over that poster like stink on a fart.

Many of this is just misinformation.. I think you should know whenever America government (the longest running and most brutal terrorist organization in existence) labels a group terrorist, it doesn't necessary make them that. I've heard from people who lived in Palestine who say Hamas is the only group helping Palestinians while Israel bombs them..

I agree with what advances the Arabs made during their Golden Age, but that civilization turned to dust in the Mid-East hundreds of years ago. We live today, and Israel is today.
What Israel (a simple country) has accomplished would never amount to what Arabs as a whole have done... We benefit from many things TODAY from what Arabs have accomplished during that golden age... Your comparison is ludicrous...
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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Jordan may have stayed out of it had it not been for the flood of refugees they ended up having to support. Seems to me I recall Jordan trying the diplomatic approach - but please don't be one of those morons who expect links to memory and 1967 editions of the Telegram
Colpy beat me to it. :) Jordan reluctantly attacked Israel. They avoided conflicts with fellow Arabs that would probably still be going on today.
 

petros

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There are too many sects for there to be recognition of a spiritual state. Without unified spirituality there never will be a recognizable Israel politically.

Their only shot remain is playing the ace in the hole which is dig up the Davidian lineage and create a Kingdom.

That will make the Christians and Muslims shiit Dodges.
 

Goober

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Yes, this is true.


Quote - Isreal has been atacked repeatedly - premptive in 67 and won every War - They have been persecuted for 2000 years in every country they lived in. Arafat turned down better peace deals than are now on the table. Do you blame them for wanting their own country back.


LOL. Great post. You are interpreting zionist to mean all jews, this isn't correct. This is blatant projecting...
Here's a quote from you

My Post -"The Arabs have always been their own worst enemy. The murder, kill, oppress, torture, hang, make families disappear, and then they
start again. "

No I am not misinterpretating anything - Your posts and this one are clear as the meaning today of a Swastika - Wipe the bastards out - Genocide - You are trying to back pedal your way out - But we have had your type on this Forum before - Just plain hatred for all Jews - There are millions like you - correction - tens of million.
So you do meet the criteria for the following
1 - A Racist
2- A NAZI
3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.
4- A Genocidal Freak




This is blatant lying or ignorance, not sure which. But definitely racism. Targeting an entire race of people and defaming them like this? This is much worse than my comment.

This all seems like projecting to me... I don't hate any race, but you seem to have a serious problems with Arabs.

My statement has been made by many Arabs both inside and outside of the Middle East - Trying to label me a racist with this is beyond ludicrous

By stating what is well known within and outside of the Arab Community you claim I am defaming them - You reach to far and again fall of the ladder of logic. A study was performed by approx 100 top Arabs ranging from theeconomy, employment, education, poverty and on and on - They condemned all Arab countires in the Mid East on about every thing they studied - So my comment is not racist in the least.
And your reply is - Now keep that Right Hand nice and stiff when you Salute.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Yes, this is true.


Quote - Isreal has been atacked repeatedly - premptive in 67 and won every War - They have been persecuted for 2000 years in every country they lived in. Arafat turned down better peace deals than are now on the table. Do you blame them for wanting their own country back.


LOL. Great post. You are interpreting zionist to mean all jews, this isn't correct. This is blatant projecting...
Here's a quote from you

My Post -"The Arabs have always been their own worst enemy. The murder, kill, oppress, torture, hang, make families disappear, and then they
start again. "

No I am not misinterpretating anything - Your posts and this one are clear as the meaning today of a Swastika - Wipe the bastards out - Genocide - You are trying to back pedal your way out - But we have had your type on this Forum before - Just plain hatred for all Jews - There are millions like you - correction - tens of million.
So you do meet the criteria for the following
1 - A Racist
2- A NAZI
3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.
4- A Genocidal Freak




This is blatant lying or ignorance, not sure which. But definitely racism. Targeting an entire race of people and defaming them like this? This is much worse than my comment.

This all seems like projecting to me... I don't hate any race, but you seem to have a serious problems with Arabs.

My statement has been made by many Arabs both inside and outside of the Middle East - Trying to label me a racist with this is beyond ludicrous

By stating what is well known within and outside of the Arab Community you claim I am defaming them - You reach to far and again fall of the ladder of logic. A study was performed by approx 100 top Arabs ranging from theeconomy, employment, education, poverty and on and on - They condemned all Arab countires in the Mid East on about every thing they studied - So my comment is not racist in the least.
And your reply is - Now keep that Right Hand nice and stiff when you Salute.

CUBert

no answer yet
Wo Sie mein Hautkopffreund sind

There are too many sects for there to be recognition of a spiritual state. Without unified spirituality there never will be a recognizable Israel politically.

Their only shot remain is playing the ace in the hole which is dig up the Davidian lineage and create a Kingdom.

That will make the Christians and Muslims shiit Dodges.

And another War is coming shortly


The United States, Israel and the Arabs: Please, not again | The Economist
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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EAO

What I have stated time and again is that you continuously overlook any action taken by the Palestinians and in particular the Terrorist that are supported by a substantial number - Now you are the one that came right out the the Racist Closet in full bloom -

Say what you want but your own words condemn you. Your words - Twist and turn in the wind - try to avoid it but you have Anti-Semite tattooed all over your posts.

You hate Jews - You and some others that inhabit this forum also hate Jews - Deny all you want but I for one will not fall for that Goebbels strategy you use - A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth -


Your words -

I would agree that the holocaust is an important historical event, but that's not why it gets so much news coverage. I'm inclined to agree with Canaduh's and Finklestein's observations regarding the constant and overwhelming Holocaust news coverage. Its being used as cover for Israeli atrocities.


EAO - for you
 

earth_as_one

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If i understand your post, you wrote the first three paragraphs and claim I wrote the fourth paragraph:

eao
I would agree that the holocaust is an important historical event, but that's not why it gets so much news coverage. I'm inclined to agree with Canaduh's and Finklestein's observations regarding the constant and overwhelming Holocaust news coverage. Its being used as cover for Israeli atrocities.


I vaguely recall writing that somewhere. So what about it?

I am still inclined to agree with Finklestein. You can read why here:
The Holocaust Industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, Finklestein's credentials:
Norman Finkelstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 

Goober

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Its possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. I think you read too much into his post. He's just observed that everytime Israel commits yet another horrendous atrocity, the news ignores it and prints yet another story about the holocaust instead.

For example:

January 29, 2010 Google News Search
Results 110 of about 13,642 for holocaust
Results 110 of about 3,587 for goldstone
Results 110 of about 974 for rwanda genocide

Why does the news have 13,642 stories about a 60 year old event, yet far less about the Goldstone Report which is about recent Israeli atrocities? Even the Rwandan genocide doesn't get nearly as much attention as the Holocaust. Can you name another event as old as the holocaust which has more than 13,000 active google linked news stories?

Personally I interpreted his observation along this lines:



I doubt Finklestein would be any more comfortable among an "Aryan Nations" than Canaduh.

If you really want to discuss this issue civilly, you are going to have to stop assuming that everyone who is shocked and outraged at Israel's ongoing war crimes and crimes against humanity must be supporter of the Aryan Nation.


http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/89595-israel-right-exist-state-25.html

How can i read to much into - jewish controlled media


would have expected the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz to get far less coverage than the 65th anniversary of D-Day, the end of WW II or even the second anniversary of Israel's ongoing Gaza blockade/crime against humanity. The holocaust gets more news coverage now than when it was happening.

I would agree that the holocaust is an important historical event, but that's not why it gets so much news coverage. I'm inclined to agree with Canaduh's and Finklestein's observations regarding the constant and overwhelming Holocaust news coverage. Its being used as cover for Israeli atrocities.

Another clue is that most holocaust stories only mention the Jewish victims. Millions of other holocaust victims are seldom mentioned.

I think its hypocritical to pay so much attention to a historical atrocity while ignoring an ongoing one.

quick reply | full reply | multi-quote:
 

earth_as_one

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Israeli strike on UN headquarters in Gaza a 'total disaster': UN director
United Nations chief expresses 'strong protest and outrage' over attack
January 15, 2009

Israeli forces opened fire on the United Nations headquarters in Gaza City Thursday, setting the compound ablaze and destroying tonnes of humanitarian aid meant for victims of the 20-day conflict.

"It's a total disaster for us," said John Ging, director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency in Gaza, whose compound was providing refuge to about 700 Palestinian civilians at the time of the attack.

Read more: CBC News - World - Israeli strike on UN headquarters in Gaza a 'total disaster': UN director

Around the same time:

Holocaust Book released:
Diary of a young woman before the Holocaust took her life
By Susan Rubin Suleiman
January 28, 2009

'Oh not another Holocaust book!" some readers may exclaim. But this compelling story proves that the well of sympathy and indignation over unjust suffering is bottomless. The fate of Hélène Berr, while not new in a historical sense, moves us deeply. Deported to Auschwitz with her parents in March 1944, this young French Jewish woman died at the Bergen-Belsen camp in April 1945, shortly before liberation by British troops. (Anne Frank, a few years younger, was in the same camp and died around the same time)....
Diary of a young woman before the Holocaust took her life - The Boston Globe

Holocaust Movie released:
Movie Review: Holocaust story ‘Defiance’ is action-packed, moving, even hopeful
January 16, 2009
By Michael Janusonis

Out of the despair of the Holocaust comes Defiance, a remarkable tale of inspiration and determination that paints the Jews who were slated for death by the Nazis not as victims, but heroes.

That’s quite a turnaround from the way one usually thinks about the Holocaust. One may have seen Steven Spielberg’s inspirational Schindler’s List, but that was about a Gentile manufacturer who saved the lives of hundreds of Jews. And there was a TV movie about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising by a group of Jewish freedom fighters, but that ended badly.
Movie Review: Holocaust story ‘Defiance’ is action-packed, moving, even hopeful | Movies | projo.com | The Providence Journal


I agree with Jewish intellectual Finklestein. While the holocaust was a real historical tragedy, Jews weren't the only victims and it has been used shamelessly by Zionists and others to shake down banks and provide cover for ongoing Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I agree with Jewish/British MP Gerald Kaufman
YouTube - UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Israeli strike on UN headquarters in Gaza a 'total disaster': UN director
United Nations chief expresses 'strong protest and outrage' over attack
January 15, 2009

Israeli forces opened fire on the United Nations headquarters in Gaza City Thursday, setting the compound ablaze and destroying tonnes of humanitarian aid meant for victims of the 20-day conflict.

"It's a total disaster for us," said John Ging, director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency in Gaza, whose compound was providing refuge to about 700 Palestinian civilians at the time of the attack.

Read more: CBC News - World - Israeli strike on UN headquarters in Gaza a 'total disaster': UN director

Around the same time:

Holocaust Book released:
Diary of a young woman before the Holocaust took her life
By Susan Rubin Suleiman
January 28, 2009

'Oh not another Holocaust book!" some readers may exclaim. But this compelling story proves that the well of sympathy and indignation over unjust suffering is bottomless. The fate of Hélène Berr, while not new in a historical sense, moves us deeply. Deported to Auschwitz with her parents in March 1944, this young French Jewish woman died at the Bergen-Belsen camp in April 1945, shortly before liberation by British troops. (Anne Frank, a few years younger, was in the same camp and died around the same time)....
Diary of a young woman before the Holocaust took her life - The Boston Globe

Holocaust Movie released:
Movie Review: Holocaust story ‘Defiance’ is action-packed, moving, even hopeful
January 16, 2009
By Michael Janusonis

Out of the despair of the Holocaust comes Defiance, a remarkable tale of inspiration and determination that paints the Jews who were slated for death by the Nazis not as victims, but heroes.

That’s quite a turnaround from the way one usually thinks about the Holocaust. One may have seen Steven Spielberg’s inspirational Schindler’s List, but that was about a Gentile manufacturer who saved the lives of hundreds of Jews. And there was a TV movie about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising by a group of Jewish freedom fighters, but that ended badly.
Movie Review: Holocaust story ‘Defiance’ is action-packed, moving, even hopeful | Movies | projo.com | The Providence Journal


I agree with Jewish intellectual Finklestein. While the holocaust was a real historical tragedy, Jews weren't the only victims and it has been used shamelessly by Zionists and others to shake down banks and provide cover for ongoing Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I agree with Jewish/British MP Gerald Kaufman
YouTube - UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza


In what was were Banks shaken down? Could you expand upon that?
 

earth_as_one

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Today's News:

Results 1 – 10 of about 4,411 for holocaust
Results 1 – 10 of about 505 for rwandan genocide
Results 1 – 10 of about 182 for gaza war crimes
 

Goober

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Today's News:

Results 1 – 10 of about 4,411 for holocaust
Results 1 – 10 of about 505 for rwandan genocide
Results 1 – 10 of about 182 for gaza war crimes
Please expand upon how the so called Jewish Holocaust Industry shook down Banks?
 

earth_as_one

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Like I said, I agree with Finkelstein:

SUEDDEUTSCHE ZEITUNG (11 August 2000)
By Norman G. Finkelstein

The main thesis of my new book is that The Holocaust has effectively become an industry. Jewish elites, acting in concert with the US government, exploit the horrific suffering of the millions of Jews exterminated during World War II and the few who managed to survive for power and profit. In its ruthless exploitation of Jewish suffering, the Holocaust industry has arguably become a fomenter of anti-Semitism and a purveyor of Holocaust denial.

The book is divided into three chapters. In the first chapter I explore the genesis of the Holocaust industry. During the postwar years American Jewish leaders, eager to please the US government as it aligned with a barely de-Nazified West Germany, banished The Holocaust from public discourse. After the June 1967 Middle East war, Israel became a key ally of the US. American Jewish elites, hitherto wary of Israel (they feared the bogey of "dual loyalty"), fervently embraced the Jewish state. For Jews now stood on the front lines defending American interests against the retrograde Third World/Arab hordes. Supporting Israel accordingly facilitated Jewish assimilation in the US. Posing as the natural interlocutors between the US government and its "strategic asset" in the Middle East, Jewish elites could also enter the inner sanctums of American power. To deflect criticism, American Jewish elites "remembered" the Nazi holocaust which, ideologically recast, proved a potent weapon.

In chapter 2, I critically scrutinize the central dogmas of Holocaust ideology: (1) The Holocaust marks a categorically unique event, and (2) The Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews. The main proponent of the "uniqueness" doctrine is Elie Wiesel. For Wiesel, The Holocaust "leads into darkness," "negates all answers," "defies both knowledge and description," and so forth. Such formulations obscure more than they illuminate. The "uniqueness" doctrine, although intellectually stifling and morally discreditable (the suffering of non-Jewish victims "cannot compare"), persists on account of its political utility. Unique suffering confers unique entitlement.

According to the complementary Holocaust dogma of "eternal Gentile hatred," Jews were exterminated during World War II because all Gentiles, be it as active perpetrators or as passive collaborators, wanted them dead. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's ponderous effort to prove one variant of this dogma in Hitler's Willing Executioners lacked scholarly value. But like the "uniqueness" doctrine, it has proven to be politically useful. To account for criticism of Israel, American writer Cynthia Ozick had a ready answer: "The world wants to wipe out the Jews...the world has always wanted to wipe out the Jews." Indeed this dogma confers total license: intent as the Gentiles always are on murdering Jews, Jews have every right to protect themselves, however they see fit. Deploring the "Holocaust lesson" of eternal Gentile hatred, respected Israeli scholar Boas Evron observes that it is "really tantamount to a deliberate breeding of paranoia....This mentality...condones in advance any inhuman treatment of non-Jews, for the prevailing mythology is that 'all people collaborated with the Nazis in the destruction of Jewry,' hence everything is permissible to Jews in their relationship to other peoples."

Holocaust dogma exerts a pernicious influence on scholarship. Consider for example Guenter Lewy's The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies. Published this past year by Oxford University Press and praised by Holocaust historian Saul Friedlander for its "great compassion," the central thesis of this study is that Gypsies didn't suffer like the Jews - indeed, didn't even suffer a genocide - during World War II. Lewy's argument goes like this: Gypsies were ruthlessly slaughtered by the Einsatzgruppen like the Jews, but only because they were suspected of spying; Gypsies were deported to Auschwitz like the Jews, but only "to get rid of them, not to kill them;" Gypsies were gassed at Chelmno like the Jews, but only because they had contracted typhus; most of the few remaining Gypsies were sterilized like the Jews, not however to prevent their propagation but only to "prevent contamination of 'German blood.'" It's not hard to imagine the public and scholarly reaction if one replaced Gypsies with Jews in Lewy's book.

In my last chapter I explore the material compensation issue. I contend that the Holocaust industry is guilty of a "double shakedown": it misappropriates monies from European governments as well as from the actual survivors of Nazi persecution. Even the official history of the Jewish Claims Conference acknowledges that the Conference made improper use of the monies originally earmarked by the German government for Holocaust victims. During the recent slave-labor negotiations, the Claims Conference put forth wildly inflated figures for still living former Jewish slave-laborers. In doing so, the Conference forces a radical revision of our understanding of the Nazi holocaust: increasing the number of survivors means decreasing the number of victims. Indeed, the numbers used by the Claims Conference place it uncomfortably close to the arguments of Holocaust revisionists. "If everyone who claims to be a survivor actually is one," my mother (a concentration camp survivor) used to exclaim, "who did Hitler kill?"

Nearly all the charges the Holocaust industry leveled against the Swiss banks were either false or grossly hypocritical. The definitive Volcker Committee report found that the Swiss banks did not systematically deny Holocaust victims or their heirs access to accounts after the war and did not systematically destroy bank records to cover their tracks. My book's most important finding was that, alongside Switzerland, the United States was also a primary safe haven for transferrable Jewish assets before and during World War II. The obvious question is, What happened to the dormant Holocaust-era accounts in American banks? During the Congressional hearings on the Swiss banks, one expert witness - Seymour Rubin of American University - was called to testify on this matter. Rubin concluded that the record of the American banks was worse than the record of the Swiss banks: "The United States took only very limited measures to identify heirless assets in the United States, and made available...a mere $500,000, in contrast to the $32,000,000 acknowledged by Swiss banks even prior to the Volcker inquiry." The New York Times devoted a full page of its book review to a savage ad hominem assault on me; it made no mention of this remarkable - and damning - revelation. The Holocaust industry demanded a final settlement with the Swiss bankers before the Volcker committee completed its work because "needy Holocaust victims are dying every day." Yet once the Swiss agreed to a $1.25 billion settlement in August 1998, the urgency suddenly vanished. Two years have elapsed but not a single cent of the Swiss monies has been distributed to the actual claimants.

The Holocaust industry has diminished the moral stature of the Jewish people's martyrdom. For this reason alone it deserves public censure. Many well-meaning Germans worry that my book may incite anti-Semitism. I respect and fully share this concern. To deny the danger would be disingenuous. Yet, moral action is never unalloyed: there are always unintended or undesired repercussions. To decide whether to proceed one must exercise judgment - hopefully good judgment but at least judgment in good faith. It is primarily the ruthless and reckless tactics of the Holocaust industry that foment anti-Semitism. During the slave-labor negotiations, I met privately with a member of the German delegation holding unimpeachable moral credentials. For several hours he defended the Claims Conference as vehemently as I denounced it. Just before leaving, however, he turned to me and said: "I'll be honest with you. On our side, we all feel like we're being blackmailed." I suspect that privately many decent Germans agree - regrettably, with good reason. One can also assume that many decent Swiss privately echo these sentiments. And it is not difficult to guess what East Europeans think as the Holocaust industry, falsely claiming as its own the property of murdered Jews, presses for an acceleration in the pace of property evictions. Incidentally, while American Jewish organizations have called for a worldwide boycott of the new Austrian government, Stuart Eizenstat, US Deputy Secretary of the Treasury and the Holocaust industry's chief diplomat, entered restitution negotiations with this same Austrian government and then acclaimed it for having "shown leadership and not just in Austria but leadership to the rest of Europe and to the world about how one can reconcile with one's past, and how one can heal wounds even many decades later." The purpose of my book is to facilitate a long overdue open debate. Kept under wraps in deference to "political correctness," the discontent will only fester. To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed and repudiated.

Finally, I emphatically believe that the Nazi holocaust should be studied. Yet one cannot learn anything substantive until and unless the Holocaust industry is shut down. Meaningful historical inquiry practically requires that comparisons be made. And what significant moral lesson can possibly be drawn from a dogma that reduces the Nazi holocaust to a Manichaean struggle between Gentiles and Jews? Holocaust dogmatism preempts understanding the crucial individual and historical dimensions of Nazism. In The Holocaust Industry I attempt to represent my parents' legacy. The main lesson they imparted is that we should always compare. To make out moral distinctions between "our" suffering and "theirs" is itself a moral travesty. "Do not compare" is the mantra of moral blackmailers.
Norman G. Finkelstein

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Goober

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Like I said, I agree with Finkelstein:

SUEDDEUTSCHE ZEITUNG (11 August 2000)
By Norman G. Finkelstein

The main thesis of my new book is that The Holocaust has effectively become an industry. Jewish elites, acting in concert with the US government, exploit the horrific suffering of the millions of Jews exterminated during World War II and the few who managed to survive for power and profit. In its ruthless exploitation of Jewish suffering, the Holocaust industry has arguably become a fomenter of anti-Semitism and a purveyor of Holocaust denial.

The book is divided into three chapters. In the first chapter I explore the genesis of the Holocaust industry. During the postwar years American Jewish leaders, eager to please the US government as it aligned with a barely de-Nazified West Germany, banished The Holocaust from public discourse. After the June 1967 Middle East war, Israel became a key ally of the US. American Jewish elites, hitherto wary of Israel (they feared the bogey of "dual loyalty"), fervently embraced the Jewish state. For Jews now stood on the front lines defending American interests against the retrograde Third World/Arab hordes. Supporting Israel accordingly facilitated Jewish assimilation in the US. Posing as the natural interlocutors between the US government and its "strategic asset" in the Middle East, Jewish elites could also enter the inner sanctums of American power. To deflect criticism, American Jewish elites "remembered" the Nazi holocaust which, ideologically recast, proved a potent weapon.

In chapter 2, I critically scrutinize the central dogmas of Holocaust ideology: (1) The Holocaust marks a categorically unique event, and (2) The Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews. The main proponent of the "uniqueness" doctrine is Elie Wiesel. For Wiesel, The Holocaust "leads into darkness," "negates all answers," "defies both knowledge and description," and so forth. Such formulations obscure more than they illuminate. The "uniqueness" doctrine, although intellectually stifling and morally discreditable (the suffering of non-Jewish victims "cannot compare"), persists on account of its political utility. Unique suffering confers unique entitlement.

According to the complementary Holocaust dogma of "eternal Gentile hatred," Jews were exterminated during World War II because all Gentiles, be it as active perpetrators or as passive collaborators, wanted them dead. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's ponderous effort to prove one variant of this dogma in Hitler's Willing Executioners lacked scholarly value. But like the "uniqueness" doctrine, it has proven to be politically useful. To account for criticism of Israel, American writer Cynthia Ozick had a ready answer: "The world wants to wipe out the Jews...the world has always wanted to wipe out the Jews." Indeed this dogma confers total license: intent as the Gentiles always are on murdering Jews, Jews have every right to protect themselves, however they see fit. Deploring the "Holocaust lesson" of eternal Gentile hatred, respected Israeli scholar Boas Evron observes that it is "really tantamount to a deliberate breeding of paranoia....This mentality...condones in advance any inhuman treatment of non-Jews, for the prevailing mythology is that 'all people collaborated with the Nazis in the destruction of Jewry,' hence everything is permissible to Jews in their relationship to other peoples."

Holocaust dogma exerts a pernicious influence on scholarship. Consider for example Guenter Lewy's The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies. Published this past year by Oxford University Press and praised by Holocaust historian Saul Friedlander for its "great compassion," the central thesis of this study is that Gypsies didn't suffer like the Jews - indeed, didn't even suffer a genocide - during World War II. Lewy's argument goes like this: Gypsies were ruthlessly slaughtered by the Einsatzgruppen like the Jews, but only because they were suspected of spying; Gypsies were deported to Auschwitz like the Jews, but only "to get rid of them, not to kill them;" Gypsies were gassed at Chelmno like the Jews, but only because they had contracted typhus; most of the few remaining Gypsies were sterilized like the Jews, not however to prevent their propagation but only to "prevent contamination of 'German blood.'" It's not hard to imagine the public and scholarly reaction if one replaced Gypsies with Jews in Lewy's book.

In my last chapter I explore the material compensation issue. I contend that the Holocaust industry is guilty of a "double shakedown": it misappropriates monies from European governments as well as from the actual survivors of Nazi persecution. Even the official history of the Jewish Claims Conference acknowledges that the Conference made improper use of the monies originally earmarked by the German government for Holocaust victims. During the recent slave-labor negotiations, the Claims Conference put forth wildly inflated figures for still living former Jewish slave-laborers. In doing so, the Conference forces a radical revision of our understanding of the Nazi holocaust: increasing the number of survivors means decreasing the number of victims. Indeed, the numbers used by the Claims Conference place it uncomfortably close to the arguments of Holocaust revisionists. "If everyone who claims to be a survivor actually is one," my mother (a concentration camp survivor) used to exclaim, "who did Hitler kill?"

Nearly all the charges the Holocaust industry leveled against the Swiss banks were either false or grossly hypocritical. The definitive Volcker Committee report found that the Swiss banks did not systematically deny Holocaust victims or their heirs access to accounts after the war and did not systematically destroy bank records to cover their tracks. My book's most important finding was that, alongside Switzerland, the United States was also a primary safe haven for transferrable Jewish assets before and during World War II. The obvious question is, What happened to the dormant Holocaust-era accounts in American banks? During the Congressional hearings on the Swiss banks, one expert witness - Seymour Rubin of American University - was called to testify on this matter. Rubin concluded that the record of the American banks was worse than the record of the Swiss banks: "The United States took only very limited measures to identify heirless assets in the United States, and made available...a mere $500,000, in contrast to the $32,000,000 acknowledged by Swiss banks even prior to the Volcker inquiry." The New York Times devoted a full page of its book review to a savage ad hominem assault on me; it made no mention of this remarkable - and damning - revelation. The Holocaust industry demanded a final settlement with the Swiss bankers before the Volcker committee completed its work because "needy Holocaust victims are dying every day." Yet once the Swiss agreed to a $1.25 billion settlement in August 1998, the urgency suddenly vanished. Two years have elapsed but not a single cent of the Swiss monies has been distributed to the actual claimants.

The Holocaust industry has diminished the moral stature of the Jewish people's martyrdom. For this reason alone it deserves public censure. Many well-meaning Germans worry that my book may incite anti-Semitism. I respect and fully share this concern. To deny the danger would be disingenuous. Yet, moral action is never unalloyed: there are always unintended or undesired repercussions. To decide whether to proceed one must exercise judgment - hopefully good judgment but at least judgment in good faith. It is primarily the ruthless and reckless tactics of the Holocaust industry that foment anti-Semitism. During the slave-labor negotiations, I met privately with a member of the German delegation holding unimpeachable moral credentials. For several hours he defended the Claims Conference as vehemently as I denounced it. Just before leaving, however, he turned to me and said: "I'll be honest with you. On our side, we all feel like we're being blackmailed." I suspect that privately many decent Germans agree - regrettably, with good reason. One can also assume that many decent Swiss privately echo these sentiments. And it is not difficult to guess what East Europeans think as the Holocaust industry, falsely claiming as its own the property of murdered Jews, presses for an acceleration in the pace of property evictions. Incidentally, while American Jewish organizations have called for a worldwide boycott of the new Austrian government, Stuart Eizenstat, US Deputy Secretary of the Treasury and the Holocaust industry's chief diplomat, entered restitution negotiations with this same Austrian government and then acclaimed it for having "shown leadership and not just in Austria but leadership to the rest of Europe and to the world about how one can reconcile with one's past, and how one can heal wounds even many decades later." The purpose of my book is to facilitate a long overdue open debate. Kept under wraps in deference to "political correctness," the discontent will only fester. To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed and repudiated.

Finally, I emphatically believe that the Nazi holocaust should be studied. Yet one cannot learn anything substantive until and unless the Holocaust industry is shut down. Meaningful historical inquiry practically requires that comparisons be made. And what significant moral lesson can possibly be drawn from a dogma that reduces the Nazi holocaust to a Manichaean struggle between Gentiles and Jews? Holocaust dogmatism preempts understanding the crucial individual and historical dimensions of Nazism. In The Holocaust Industry I attempt to represent my parents' legacy. The main lesson they imparted is that we should always compare. To make out moral distinctions between "our" suffering and "theirs" is itself a moral travesty. "Do not compare" is the mantra of moral blackmailers.
Norman G. Finkelstein

Results 1 – 10 of about 1,658 for Jewish holocaust
Results 1 – 10 of about 307 for Goldstone

So every court in Europe, and the US were wrong in their judgements - Every art piece that was ever recovered, was wrong. Amazing that courts in a democracy would not adhere to the laws.