Tories To Waste Billons On New Fighter Jets

[Trotz]

Agreed,

if it's just 62 aircraft we need for "missions abroad" (which I believe they mean sorties over Afghanistan and dropping payloads), than we could have purchased 62 A-10 Thunderbolts for less than a billion.
"Multirole Fighters" are Idiosyncrasy, they have to be configured for each mission and as Cliffy points out, they wouldn't last long against anyone else with a larger fleet of modern aircraft.

 

[earth_as_one]

These planes cost 135 million each. They can be shot down with a missile worth thousands to hundreds of thousands. Its a mistake to believe that future wars will be fought like past wars.

 

[Bar Sinister]

We may not have a seat on the UN, but we are still a member of Nato. In the first Gulf War we deployed only our Navy and Air Force to the region. The fact that these jets have been bought through a consortium of Countries mean that long term maintenance costs will be reduced as there will be plenty of stock parts.

In the business of war Kick Ass is always best.

That may well be the case, but the deployment of a few Canadian fighters to the Gulf was more about showing support for a US led initiative than offering real military support. The US, Britain, and France deployed several thousand aircraft to the region, Canada sent four.

For the most part conventional aircraft have seen very little use in most of Canada's peacekeeping missions and so far as I know have not been used at all in Afghanistan. Essentially the aircraft being purchased are better suited to fighting the Cold War than to preparing Canada for future military operations. Canada needs aircraft; but it does not need the type of aircraft being purchased.

I certainly support modernizing the Canadian military, but I would like to see a bit more practical application of military spending.

 

[ironsides]

These F-35B (generation 5) fighters are designed similar to the F-22 Raptor to see and kill a enemy before that enemy who is flying a generation 3 or 4 fighter can come within effective missile range (he is blind to the F-35). The F-35 is designed for the next war and performs multifunctions. If you want a practical example, when WW-ll started Japan had the Mitsubishi A6M Zero, this was far better than any American fighter. We didn't know any better so all we had was the P-40 Warhawk/Tomahawk, Brewster F2A Buffalo fighter and a few other poorly designed aircraft. We thought like you let the British and Germans fight, were to far away, Well the attack on Pearl Harbor ended that line of thought, we had most of our land base fighter aircraft shot out of the skies, if it wasn't for the Grumman F4 Wildcat and later the F-6 Hellcat who knows what could have happened. If your going to have a airforce, have the best.

 

[Unforgiven]

We may not have a seat on the UN, but we are still a member of Nato. In the first Gulf War we deployed only our Navy and Air Force to the region. The fact that these jets have been bought through a consortium of Countries mean that long term maintenance costs will be reduced as there will be plenty of stock parts.

In the business of war Kick Ass is always best.

This is true but maybe we being such a small population shouldn't be in the war business. Don't get me wrong, I think that we should defend our country and it's people to the last breath of the last man, but we don't defend our country. We most often go off fighting others battles. Sometimes while they don't bother. I can't see the Taliban, who is going to be getting their country back and a good chunk of money from us in support payments after the war ends, is going to be lining up to kick some ass for Canada. So if it's just defence we need to worry about, then what are we doing with this shock and awe bull? Are we going to shock and awe the Russians? The Danes? Maybe the Americans? Not a chance in hell that we are even going to mildly surprise them.

Canada isn't a peace maker country. We don't have the money nor the military to throw at that. While our sovereignty is decided in the courts, our fighter jets are parked when they aren't being used for politician joy rides, impressing drunk bums at air shows and lining the pockets of deal makers. Like Airbus Mulroney.

Being able to get a flamery agitator at half price still doesn't mean you need one.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

This is true but maybe we being such a small population shouldn't be in the war business. Don't get me wrong, I think that we should defend our country and it's people to the last breath of the last man, but we don't defend our country. We most often go off fighting others battles. Sometimes while they don't bother. I can't see the Taliban, who is going to be getting their country back and a good chunk of money from us in support payments after the war ends, is going to be lining up to kick some ass for Canada. So if it's just defence we need to worry about, then what are we doing with this shock and awe bull? Are we going to shock and awe the Russians? The Danes? Maybe the Americans? Not a chance in hell that we are even going to mildly surprise them.

There in lies the problem Unf. Liberal minded folks love using the military as their personal whipping post when it comes to cutting costs and the end game for our soldiers has always been to do without.While many fine Canadians say they support our military they fail to understand that equipping them to do their job cost money. From where I stand it's like this. If we are going to send them overseas to engage in operations we owe it to them to give them the best.

In the Balkans a group Serbs managed to shoot down a stealth fighter, so while we kid ourselves that the knuckle dragging enemy would be incapable of taking out a modern jet aircraft I would argue that point. As long as we have boys and girls coming down highway 401 in motorcades the Canadian public should look for someone else's equipment to save money.

This thinking led us down a path where in we sent soldiers to the Balkans with Vietnam era body armour. It was also the reason for our purchase of the G Wagon after a suicide bomber blew himself up on an Iltis killing Corporal Beerenfinger and Sgt. Short.

There may come a day when our relatively small force is called upon to do service in a place like North Korea and unless we're prepared to take a pass we better keep our equipment up to date. From my point of view it is not a matter of "If" but "when.".

If you want to save money let's look at funding for Gay Pride or one of the other 1000's of pet projects that could be self-sufficient.

The bitching about the purchase of these aircraft is politically motivated. Nothing more.

 

[Unforgiven]

There in lies the problem Unf. Liberal minded folks love using the military as their personal whipping post when it comes to cutting costs and the end game for our soldiers has always been to do without.While many fine Canadians say they support our military they fail to understand that equipping them to do their job cost money. From where I stand it's like this. If we are going to send them overseas to engage in operations we owe it to them to give them the best.

In the Balkans a group Serbs managed to shoot down a stealth fighter, so while we kid ourselves that the knuckle dragging enemy would be incapable of taking out a modern jet aircraft I would argue that point. As long as we have boys and girls coming down highway 401 in motorcades the Canadian public should look for someone else's equipment to save money.

This thinking led us down a path where in we sent soldiers to the Balkans with Vietnam era body armour. It was also the reason for our purchase of the G Wagon after a suicide bomber blew himself up on an Iltis killing Corporal Beerenfinger and Sgt. Short.

There may come a day when our relatively small force is called upon to do service in a place like North Korea and unless we're prepared to take a pass we better keep our equipment up to date. From my point of view it is not a matter of "If" but "when.".

If you want to save money let's look at funding for Gay Pride or one of the other 1000's of pet projects that could be self-sufficient.

The bitching about the purchase of these aircraft is politically motivated. Nothing more.

I agree with a lot of that mate. But I continue with what the hell are we sending people off to war for? Part of the problem with Afghanistan is that the people there sure don't want to get up and do the fighting. There is a huge effort to do nothing other than bog down our military there and suffer us til we get up and go home in frustration.

As I've said before we should be laying waste to any country that attacks us directly or indirectly. No smart bombs, no aid, no refugee evacuation. Kill every one and every thing until no one wants to attack our country again. This would serve well as a deterrent to future generation who feel going to another land and killing civilians is some way to peace.

But we should get our own house in order first. No more supporting regimes in other countries. They sink or swim on their own merit. If we agree with their policies we trade and open our country to them, if not closed and blocked from anything other than diplomatic discussion.

Then we don't have to send our military off to some country that hates them to fight a war against some assholes that hide behind civilians.

Of course that may take more than griping about it on the Internet. Maybe we should take a dimmer view of the government using the police to beat down those peaceful protesters.

 

[ironsides]

This is true but maybe we being such a small population shouldn't be in the war business. Don't get me wrong, I think that we should defend our country and it's people to the last breath of the last man, but we don't defend our country. We most often go off fighting others battles. Sometimes while they don't bother. I can't see the Taliban, who is going to be getting their country back and a good chunk of money from us in support payments after the war ends, is going to be lining up to kick some ass for Canada. So if it's just defence we need to worry about, then what are we doing with this shock and awe bull? Are we going to shock and awe the Russians? The Danes? Maybe the Americans? Not a chance in hell that we are even going to mildly surprise them.

Canada isn't a peace maker country. We don't have the money nor the military to throw at that. While our sovereignty is decided in the courts, our fighter jets are parked when they aren't being used for politician joy rides, impressing drunk bums at air shows and lining the pockets of deal makers. Like Airbus Mulroney.

Being able to get a flamery agitator at half price still doesn't mean you need one.

I'll go out on a limb here and say you have never been in the military or have done anything except work hard for your own gain. Maybe it is time to think about those who allow you this privilege with a better attitude and just say 'Thank you".

 

[Unforgiven]

I'll go out on a limb here and say you have never been in the military or have done anything except work hard for your own gain. Maybe it is time to think about those who allow you this privilege with a better attitude and just say 'Thank you".

You know nothing. You are out on a limb and rather than simply cut it off and let you drop, I'll offer you a chance to climb down to safety and reflect on the pure folly of these assumptions you make.

 

[Spade]

Selling Canada on the need for fighter jets

 

[Cliffy]

Selling Canada on the need for fighter jets

Makes you wonder if Harpo and MacKay have personal investments in this deal.

 

[Trotz]

Makes you wonder if Harpo and MacKay have personal investments in this deal.

Just like Gordo in B.C. who owns four homes on a Premier's Salary ($120,000).

Once again, it seems like Lawyers (or the economist, a la Harper, surrounded by lawyers) are again making decisions in areas they know nothing about. I thought it was MacKay's job to keep in touch with the armed forces and find out what they really need? I don't know what airhead of an airforce admiral thought he could be doing with 64 overpriced jets.

But the reality being, and more probable, no one in the military would dare question politicians as it is otherwise a quick retirement.

 

[In Between Man]

Heck yeah!!! Watch this vid and tell me you don't want these multi-role stealth fighters!!!

YouTube - Lockheed Martin F35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

 

[Trotz]

Canadian Airforce,
entertaining drunks at the PNE since 2010.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The Tories are damned if they do damned if they don't, so they might as well do the right thing and purchase these Fighter Jets because the Military needs them and at least those in the Military will appreciate it unlike the Anti-Military establishment who would rather have the Military relying on NATO members for spare parts like they did during the Kosovo War, a War which had the UN's seal of approval..

 

[Trotz]

I rather have the military go do something useful like build ditches in the NWT than getting hammered up on a vacation in Afghanistan.

The Toque - Canada Sends Beer To War Torn Nation

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=9366e83a-ee7a-412e-a4b2-96b6489c894d

 

[Omicron]

Heck yeah!!! Watch this vid and tell me you don't want these multi-role stealth fighters!!!

*Yawn*

Still doesn't change the fact that for the special purposes which Canada would need jets like that for, F-22s would have been better.

If they'd let the purchase go through a normal bidding process someone might have been able to explain that to the Reform-cum-Conservative Party led by that toadster puppet of the Plutocrats...


But he doesn't *want* to have realities explained to him. He's following an agenda dictated to him by Plutocrats, such that all he would have done when presented with facts is stick fingers in his ears and gone "la la la don't confuse me with facts".

Notice how Harpo and his cabinet are implementing policies so bad for the nation that they don't even *try* to make up BS excuses for it... they just refuse to return calls from reporters... plus they're willing to break the normal rules of parliament by not telling the people and their representatives in opposition what Harpo and the cabinet are actually doing and what that cabinet *knows* will be the damaging costs to the country by their policies...

... And they do it because although it makes them look very cheezy to never answer reporter's questions, and although it puts them in violation of the normal rules of Parliament to withold information from the House, it still doesn't look as bad as it would if citizens were to learn what they are actually doing.

 

[BaalsTears]

If Russia or China decided to invade Canada, our military, navy and air farce would be wiped out in one day, more likely an hour even with the addition of these 65 planes. That is a huge waste of money. What is the point of having them just to have them destroyed and a bunch of our people killed. Any way, the US would not stand for invasion on their border. That leaves only the US who could invade us, and there ain't nothin' we could do about that either. As far as I'm concerned, our military should be used only for disaster relief. We need peace, not war. Besides, I don't know of any standing army that was able to defeat a guerrilla army. Don't have to look much farther than Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or the US of A (their guerrilla army defeated the British). Time to spend that money by investing in Canada and Canadians - education, health care, job creation.

How Canada arms itself is Canada's business. But look at the bold portion of the quote above. I might agree with you if the USA still exists in its current form. That is what your assumption is predicated on. Don't make that assumption. Politically speaking, it is the Wild West down here and there is no telling what could happen.

Also, if America tries to take over Canada we won't use kinetic weapons. We will use the power of love. You see, in all the world Canadians have only one group that stands as kith and kin. Seriously.

In the final analysis, Canadians must decide whether they want to keep Canada's resource rich far north as well as its claims to the Arctic Ocean continental shelf. Do you know what the Snow Dragon is? It's a Chinese icebreaker that plies the waters of the Northwest Passage.

 

[Trotz]

I've had these discussions with people but Canada's best chance in a defense is not a 100 aircraft but planning for an asymmetric conflict. To that end, stockpiling weapons like

FGM-148 Javelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can get about 50-100 of these for price and maintainence of a single tank.

Worse case scenario, these can be used by Canadian Guerillas who can hide and/or mount a FGM- 148 Javelin on the back of a GM pickup. A Chinese, Russian or American tank on the Highway wouldn't even know what hit them!

Though if the Chinese and Russians were playing cheap and were performing ethnic massacre (as in a total war); much like the Jews in Europe, 30 million Canadians wouldn't last long regardless.

 

[BaalsTears]

If I were a Canadian I would be interested in being able to threaten or discourage exploration and development vessels and equipment from competing powers in the waters of the Arctic Ocean. How does one do that? Warships and attack aircraft.