The bible is a fairy tale!

[Dexter Sinister]

Not the exact wording as I forgot to write it down -

But if you accept logic you also have to accept mystery - do you not?

Certainly, in the sense that there are things we don't know or understand, but there's no justification for inventing explanations for them that have no basis in reality. That, as others observed, is mysticism, not mystery, and doesn't really explain anything.

 

[MHz]

It gives man Free Will

Free will would suggest a person should be able to escape judgment. If we can't solve the 'death problem' then free will is not a real option if judgment is part of the package that we cannot change.

Most of the replies here simple mean the posters will become believers by witness rather than throught reading the Bible.

Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Cliffy, you seemed to have missed the above verse in your quest to make the Bible promote a false teaching. Why would an 'cleansing by various Popes miss the aboce one that settles the issues in one short sentence?

That's because it IS a fact. God as strictly defined by the major monotheisms is an utterly incoherent idea that can be demonstrated does not correspond to anything in reality.

Is that 'reality' based on your set of standards or 'reality' based on 'currently unknown 'realities'.
An example is the history of Egypt and 'how science has figured it out' as being no older than 2500BC. This rather long vid would point to not all the 'facts' being considereed before that date was 'set'. Now the 'science world, can't adjust to new 'facts'. This is a rather long vid but then that is how things work when lots of things are covered in the quest for 'reality'.
The Pyramid Code is a documentary series of 5 episodes that explores the pyramid fields and ancient temples in Egypt as well as ancient megalithic sites around the world looking for clues to matriarchal consciousness, ancient knowledge and sophisticated technology in a Golden Age. The series is based on the extensive research done in 23 trips to Egypt and 50 other countries around the world by Dr. Carmen Boulter in the Graduate Division of Educational Research at the University of Calgary.
The Pyramid Code features interviews with prominent scholars and authors in multidisciplinary fields: geology, physics, astrophysics, archeology, biological engineering, magnetic field theory, hieroglyphics, and Egyptology.
The series explores penetrating questions: Who were the ancients and what did they know? Could the pyramids be much older than traditional Egyptology would have us believe? Could it be that the ancients were more technologically advanced than we are today? Why do we have so little understanding of the ancient Egyptians?
Are there still secrets hidden in plain sight? Do new discoveries force the issue of establishing a new chronology? Are there little known sites that provide clues to a new understanding of our distant past? Are we really the most advanced civilization to ever live on Earth?
Episodes in the playlist: 1. The Band of Peace 2. High Level Technology 3. Sacred Cosmology 4. The Empowered Human 5. A New Chronology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlSssnh4b7Q&feature=player_embedded

 

[Cliffy]

Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Cliffy, you seemed to have missed the above verse in your quest to make the Bible promote a false teaching. Why would an 'cleansing by various Popes miss the aboce one that settles the issues in one short sentence?

You reasoning is a little flawed. If there are multiple references to reincarnation in a book fraught with contradictions, one sentence (a rather obscure sentence at that) taken out of context means absolutely nothing. If Constantine gathered together all the practitioners of every obscure religion in his empire in 325 AD, and had them deliberate over the available writings of the time and ordered them to come up with a new book that incorporated all those teachings, which he did, then what is the value of that book? What is its value after a dozen Popes had it rewritten to suit their own political motives? You "faith" in this book as a literal truth is unfounded and doubly so because you chose to ignore the obvious contradictions and incongruities.

It is really easy for me to ignore that sentence because it is meaningless.

 

[AnnaG]

Moses, Jesus, Mo, Buddha, & Confucious all went off alone, fasted, sat in a cave, ditched all the things they were taught by other men, cleared their minds of the outside world and turned inwards.

Then and only then did god speak to them and reveal the truth.

lmao

Ya mean no-one can figure things out without some disinterested god telling them?

You can still ditch all the misnformation, fears, myths, find alone time and clear your mind and listen.

Where in the texts does it teach you how to do that? We've all done the rituals in the book, said the magic connotations, asked for help etc but have you ever heard a holy man tell of his experiences on the mountain in the cave being enlightened by god?

My Dad tells people to just reflect. If/when it is your time, it will come to you. He says there aren't any gods involved telling us anything other than the god that each of us is.

gee.....I guess I must be special.:lol::roll:

lol.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Is that 'reality' based on your set of standards or 'reality' based on 'currently unknown 'realities'.
An example is the history of Egypt ... the 'science world, can't adjust to new 'facts'.

What do you think that Pyramid Code business is if not science in the process of adjusting to new facts? Besides, you're talking about testable claims and empirically verifiable facts versus the unsubstantiated and untestable assumptions and claims of the sort you and many others make about religion and scripture. The comparison is hardly apt.

 

[Goober]

Free will does not mean you escape judgement - It means that you have choices - No more - No less - Some believe that and some doctines do not.

 

[MHz]

You reasoning is a little flawed. If there are multiple references to reincarnation in a book fraught with contradictions, one sentence (a rather obscure sentence at that) taken out of context means absolutely nothing.

Kindly point that out then. Seems quite clear even with just the one verse, the ones above and below enforce the definition of 'once'.
Heb:9:26:
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb:9:27:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
Heb:9:28:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If Constantine gathered together all the practitioners of every obscure religion in his empire in 325 AD, and had them deliberate over the available writings of the time and ordered them to come up with a new book that incorporated all those teachings, which he did, then what is the value of that book?

In an odd way he saved the Scriptures from further corruption in that more texts were eliminated from being considered as being sacred. I doubt that you know that Enoch was considered to be in place of Revelation. Revelation won out because it had more to say about the Son of Man. It had nothing to do with Enoch being a false book. The altering the RCC was done with the Latin they adopted. The KJV was not based on Latin texts.

What is its value after a dozen Popes had it rewritten to suit their own political motives? You "faith" in this book as a literal truth is unfounded and doubly so because you chose to ignore the obvious contradictions and incongruities.

Once the character of the reader is considered some contradictions have very reasonable explanations. Your post is a fine example. You say the texts are corrupt yet you claim they 'accurately' speak of each person having more than one breath of life. (the reason for a single fleshy body for each breath of life means each life is unique and the resurrection of the flesh means each of those individual lives is restored. Your theory eliminates any possibility of a resurrection as one flesh cannot posses more than one body.

It is really easy for me to ignore that sentence because it is meaningless.

It is really easy for you to ignore that sentence because it (the Bible) is meaningless.

What do you think that Pyramid Code business is if not science in the process of adjusting to new facts? Besides, you're talking about testable claims and empirically verifiable facts versus the unsubstantiated and untestable assumptions and claims of the sort you and many others make about religion and scripture. The comparison is hardly apt.

The 'facts' have been there all along, they are just being looked at in greater detail. Not that the close examination (and the revision that goes along with it) is welcomed, it is meeting a lot of resistance (and it has for quite a few years).

That is also typical of science and how many centuries more before that is changed?.

The Bible spoke of two times mankind was dummied down, the Tower of Babel and the flood.

Reading a few verses in a different context shouldn't be too hard, and it wouldn't be if there was not an agenda that demanded the deception be there. What control can the Church 'threaten' people with if everybody is saved and the only difference is if you are the first of the saved or the 'the rest' which is the larger of the two groups.

That is the way it works and I could show you several pages that show that is the message that the Bible contains. How many Churches promote that if you call Christ Lord and then do things (thinking actually) in opposition to the rules the punishment is worse than if you had been a non-believer and committed the same sins. That would also seem to be a fair deal from God. The 'established churches' very seldom mention that.

Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.

The way the Bible is different is the things it speaks about will come to be events associated with the words of prophecy. In the end the truth is known, the book is not in need of revision, our understanding is what needs changes. For you it would mean a major rewrite of what you belive Daniel and Revelation means.

 

[Cliffy]

Like I've said before, the bible is not, has never been nor will it ever be a litteral history or word of god. It is a book af allegories and metaphors. It talks of resurrection and ascension in a metaphorical sense, not literal, as in I once was lost but now I'm found. The whole Christ story is about the stages of personal enlightenment. JC even says that we will one day be more enlightened than he was and be capable of doing far more than healing the sick and walking on water. Considering that these writings are nearly 2000 years old, I think it is time that we accept our inheritance as being gods in our own right.

 

[Goober]

MHZ

Ezekiel has been referred to as having witnessed a visit from other species - The wheel of fire.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The 'facts' have been there all along, they are just being looked at in greater detail. Not that the close examination (and the revision that goes along with it) is welcomed, it is meeting a lot of resistance (and it has for quite a few years)

All facts have been there all along, that's the nature of facts. The facts of quantum physics, for instance, were there in Moses' time, it just took a while to discover them. And there was resistance to them too, that's the nature of science, new claims are resisted and have to prove themselves by the accepted rules, that's how science arrives at the facts. There's nothing going on there with the Pyramid Code that isn't entirely predictable. Sunk as you are in the mystic nonsense of biblical literalism, however, your mind isn't subtle enough to understand it.

 

[MHz]

Like I've said before, the bible is not, has never been nor will it ever be a litteral history or word of god. It is a book af allegories and metaphors.

Considering that about half of the words in the two Testaments are divided between history and prophecy. Apparently God chose a certain way of writing about the things that will unfold in a literal fashion at some point in the future. He also did it in the most simple of terms (it is our concept in our wisdom that makes it more than what God intended) If we were to write such a book we would start off with a rough draft. It would look like a shopping list we take on our trips to the Mall. That is the form the Bible takes throughout, it is a book of things God will do and it is laid out in the form of a rough draft. With God a rough draft cannot be improved on. Your 'finalized' view is that it is a book of contradictions. That in itself says the Bible has only ever offered you questions and never any answers (to questions that some verse has inspired you to come up with, rather than some list somebody has put together). That is a little disturbing on both sides of the spectrum.

It talks of resurrection and ascension in a metaphorical sense, not literal, as in I once was lost but now I'm found.

These two verses are about the same event, they are about a coming literal event.
If you were correct then where is that in today's society, Christianity teaches a 'modest lifestyle' without chasing after the 'riches of the material world'. Without having a link I think it is safe to say that the Christian population on a worldwide scale own more of the things the Bible calls 'abominations' than any section of the rest of the world.

Isa:66:16:
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called, ye did not answer;
when I spake, ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

The enlightenment from God is in a book at the moment. At that event both the ones being rewarded and the ones sent to warm the benches (so to speak) watch until the first phase (rewards) is over and then it is the 'bench warmers' turn for rewards and their reward is in the last half of Isa:65. I seriously either you or Dex understands that chapter in those terms.
Job looks for death and then one resurrection at a specified time. It is a group event, the first one that comes under the term of 'visable power'. Darkness is the grave and without getting into too much detail, 'childhood and youth' are what God considers the first 120 years of a person life. You won't even believe just that part.

Ec:11:8:
But if a man live many years,
and rejoice in them all;
yet let him remember the days of darkness;
for they shall be many.
All that cometh is vanity.
Ec:11:9:
Rejoice,
O young man,
in thy youth;
and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth,
and walk in the ways of thine heart,
and in the sight of thine eyes:
but know thou,
that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Ec:11:10:
Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart,
and put away evil from thy flesh:
for childhood and youth are vanity.

The whole Christ story is about the stages of personal enlightenment.

You seem to be dismissing the existence of a world where sin and death do not affect anything that is alive. That isn't altering a few passages that is re-stamping something that is not the Bible as being the Bible. Something that is in word alone without the power to make those words real. If you cannot understand (or pay attention to) the short simple verses what are the odds you will have the message about death and what comes after as being correct?

1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

JC even says that we will one day be more enlightened than he was and be capable of doing far more than healing the sick and walking on water. Considering that these writings are nearly 2000 years old, I think it is time that we accept our inheritance as being gods in our own right.

2,000 years later and we have not accomplished either of those tasks, we seem to do better at killing the weak and walking on water.
Anybody have any data on how big the waves can get with a strong north-wind? I would think He was surfing the waves rather than simply walking on calm water.

QUOTE=Goober;1309164]MHZ
Ezekiel has been referred to as having witnessed a visit from other species - The wheel of fire.[/QUOTE]
That was his ride.

All facts have been there all along, that's the nature of facts. The facts of quantum physics, for instance, were there in Moses' time, it just took a while to discover them.

Are you referencing the Bible of Egyptian writings?

And there was resistance to them too, that's the nature of science, new claims are resisted and have to prove themselves by the accepted rules, that's how science arrives at the facts.

After killing a few who dare to challenge the 'established view', don't leave that part out.

There's nothing going on there with the Pyramid Code that isn't entirely predictable.

Pushing the dates back is just the tip, the wave of consequences has yet to follow.

Sunk as you are in the mystic nonsense of biblical literalism, however, your mind isn't subtle enough to understand it.

Stuck is when you only find questions and zero answers, I don't belong to that group.

 

[lone wolf]

Stuck is when you only find questions and zero answers, I don't belong to that group.

Sorry to hear that. When is your funeral so we can send flowers?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Stuck is when you only find questions and zero answers, I don't belong to that group.

That was sunk, not stuck, and no you don't belong in that group. You're in the group that has all the answers wrong.

 

[Goober]

All facts have been there all along, that's the nature of facts. The facts of quantum physics, for instance, were there in Moses' time, it just took a while to discover them. And there was resistance to them too, that's the nature of science, new claims are resisted and have to prove themselves by the accepted rules, that's how science arrives at the facts. There's nothing going on there with the Pyramid Code that isn't entirely predictable. Sunk as you are in the mystic nonsense of biblical literalism, however, your mind isn't subtle enough to understand it.

So a minor question - many on these forums have differing religious beliefs - as well as people that I meet on a daily basis - To state categorically that a Creator does or does not exist to me is sheer folly -

One opinion is based upon logic and analysis - I do not see any evidence so it cannot be true - The other is based upon faith - i do not need to see evidence

To try and pair that up in a reasonable discussion is not only difficult but borders on the impossible - More like completely impossible.

So I Joe Smuck believe in a creator - I go about, mind my own business, no I do not burn witches, do not despise other of various faith or those that do not. I look out for others when i can, donate, drink beer i might add.

So tell me why I have to defend my Religious Beliefs to a person - not directed at you Dex - to anyone for that matter- why is it that i must defend them. Am I some sort of dangerous person because of my beliefs, I do not think so, Do I condemn those of other faiths or those that have no religious beliefs - No - That would go against my Religious beliefs.

So I thought I would bring a few points forward for discussion.
And yes I am having a damm good home made beer -and a smoke shortly. Right after I post this.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And after we die -What happens??????????????????????

Nobody knows, Goober. But it is height of conceit and arrogance to claim that a particular religion or sect knows what happens after we die, that the true believers in that religion go to Heaven and everybody else (those who disagree with Mullahs, priests etc.) goes to Hell.

Me I am just one of the real average type Christians - What another person believes or not is up to them.

That indeed is the average Christian. Unfortunately, there is a huge minority of US population (about 1/3rd), the religious right, which very much wants to impose its narrow morality and narrow view of Christianity upon the rest of the population.

And they control the Republican party and the Tea Party. Those are the people who give religion a bad name.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So tell me why I have to defend my Religious Beliefs to a person - not directed at you Dex - to anyone for that matter- why is it that i must defend them.

You don't, unless you make claims about them that you can be certain not everybody will agree with, or you proselytize, or preach, or condemn those who disagree with you, and similar things. Your religious beliefs are entirely your own business, you can believe whatever you personally find to be sensible and satisfying, as long as you keep them to yourself. Put them out on a public forum though, and you have to expect to be challenged, because you know not everybody's going to agree with you. Even then you're under no real obligation to defend or justify them, you're not writing an exam here, you can choose not to respond, though I think that makes putting them out there in the first place rather pointless. If you were, say, a politician trying to get your religious views incorporated into public policy that's different, then you ARE obliged to defend and justify, at least in civilized countries, but you don't have to do it here. Your choice.

 

[MHz]

Sorry to hear that. When is your funeral so we can send flowers?

It was yesterday, send money instead.

That was sunk, not stuck, and no you don't belong in that group. You're in the group that has all the answers wrong.

I am aware of the difference, first you have to find something in error with a doctrine in order for it to be in error. You say-so means nothing and that would include your 'teachers'. If you can't grasp that Daniel 8 and 9 covers some of the same events that is your loss, not mine.

When you get stuck for an answer you quit the thread, that is sunk and stuck. The answer doesn't need your approval, it only need to be in harmony with other prophecies and none of Daniel 11 applies to anything before the end of the Roman Empire.

Come to think of it your blind faith in science is a bit troubling all by itself. You have conceded that the old beliefs about ancient Egypt are being updated as new theories gain acceptance. That is nice to see, it shows you are still capable of progression in your own wisdom. You resist the thought of God though, for whatever reason. This part is just a thoughtful question so don't get too excited. In that link the prog touches on the Pyramid being as power source, what would happen to current scientific knowledge if the inner workings were the very same that Tesla describes in his AC towers that would have made electricity free to customers. Also a factor is that it was turned down because it could not be metered (exit JP Morgan and Bank) so why has the public not demanded that it be implemented, the public pays once for the installation and from then on the only expense to them is maintenance. The science for that should be sound, after all this is Tesla we are talking about, so why do we adhere to only the science that takes more than necessary from the poorest of the society? That is science working for the good of the corporations and against the good of the same people who ultimately fund all the various research. (ie a company sucking up the expense for R&D would put them in the red every year, stock-holders would never stand for that)

Other than God grasping you personally I don't know what you would consider as proof. Using powers of 10 for the creation days didn't put you into 'consideration', nor will the revelation that two creations means two earth, this one and the one that exists only after death has been sent to the lake. Stony silence is not a strong argument against some proposal. Like it or not Job's knowledge of astronomy is something I see as being valid before 'science' chimed in it's approval. The 37,000BC date seem outlandish unless you can consider that 4500 years ago more angels than just Satan was on earth. If the beginning of the 7th day was 45,000 years ago then just one Angel was with Adam and Eve until the sin of Satan, from that point on several more were very active in events that Ge:6 covers. Give fallen angels 1,000 years and more and a lot of events can happen. Where were we in 1010? (wisdom that needed no further 'updates')

The scales that you and Cliffy have on your eyes are there by your own choice. Cliffy's have cracks starting to show. Reading at your own speed is the only known cure, if something seems obscure to you when you read it do not stop to ponder, keep reading and you will find something that does not require pondering in order for the meaning to be crystal clear. It is a very long path if you want to include the meaning of prophecy.
Dex is under the impression that Revelation and Daniel 11 are mismatched items, he and all that have that view are flat-out wrong, there is no gentle way to say that.
Cliffy is going to find out a few things in very short order. One is if you dive into the OT without reading (or referencing ) something from the 4 Gospels (hopefully related in context to get the greatest impact) he is going to want to vomit, literally. That is a process that allows for reading about the destruction of billions as being the way God chose to save a certain section of society. Weeping for the destruction of the wicked is something that only Satan's children would do. Understanding that their destruction is actually a way to minimize their pain is not something that many can grasp so I will spare repeating what i have already said in previous posts.
The saying "Step back non-believers or the rain will never come." is only the lyrics to a song. With God being a non-believer means the book was not enough, if a person has to be 'shown something' is not that big of a deal and it certainly does not not include punishment. The terms 'enlightenment' and 'punishment' are sort of in opposition. Both groups belong to God and it is the only time that everybody ever born is considered to be in one common group.

Re:21:27:
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,
neither whatsoever worketh abomination,
or maketh a lie:
but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

and everybody else (those who disagree with Mullahs, priests etc.) goes to Hell.

How many times does it have to be asked, 'By what verse do you claim that you accurately portray the meaning as given by God?' . I feel compelled to point out that we are under NT Law.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

When you get stuck for an answer you quit the thread, that is sunk and stuck. .

I've never been stuck for an answer to you, it's just that sometimes I decide your remarks aren't worth responding to because it's clear you either aren't going to pay any attention or you'll refuse to understand the response, which is obvious in your response above. You're stuck, and sunk, in a belief that the Bible is literally true and prophetic for our times, which is demonstrably a false belief, but the more evidence you're given that shows that, the more stubbornly you cling to your delusions and twist the words of scripture to mean what you want them to mean. You're simply wrong, that's all, utterly and completely and provably wrong, but barring some staggering epiphany, you'll never see that. You are hallucinating.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy is going to find out a few things in very short order. One is if you dive into the OT without reading (or referencing ) something from the 4 Gospels (hopefully related in context to get the greatest impact) he is going to want to vomit, literally.

That is highly unlikely as I have no plans to read that work of fiction again. I see no point in it. As for your long and incoherent rant, it is a poor motivation to even consider reading it as you come across as Dex says, delusional and hallucinating. In the end, it will be you who is grossly disappointed in a life wasted in the study of a work with little value other than entertainment. Lord of the Rings would be a more profitable pursuit.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That is highly unlikely as I have no plans to read that work of fiction again. I see no point in it. As for your long and incoherent rant, it is a poor motivation to even consider reading it as you come across as Dex says, delusional and hallucinating. In the end, it will be you who is grossly disappointed in a life wasted in the study of a work with little value other than entertainment. Lord of the Rings would be a more profitable pursuit.

Quite so, Cliffy. Bible is a great read the first time. It has plenty of blood, gore, killing, mayhem etc., and that always makes for interesting, fascinating reading.

Unfortunately, it does not carry well into the second reading. I have read Lord of the Rings trilogy (and Foundation Trilogy) several times. But after one or two readings of Bible, I was done. If I want to find out what Bible says about a particular subject, I refer to internet.

While Bible makes for interesting reading, there is noting in it to lure you to it again and again.