Israel 'attacks' Gaza aid fleet

[CDNBear]

We are cut from the same cloth to a certain extent.

Not to any extent. We simply have similar views on some subjects. Apart from that we are complete different.

I'm trying to keep hold of all of my emotion because when I lose one I lose them all. I'm not talking about impulsive action, I'm talking about saying you feel compassion for one yet cannot feel compassion for another that is going through a similar situation.

Who says I don't feel compassion for anyone deserving? We aren't talking about morality, or compassion here, the word being bandied about like a weapon, is "Law". As I've said numerous times, if you want to discuss the issue on moral or ethical grounds, it will be short and you won't get much of an objection from me.

Was it Law or Emotion that was the driving force behind the creation of Israel. Neither was the factor in the first step that ended in the creation of Israel, much as you and Colpy dislike the idea it was a Rothschild project.

Of course it was a Rothscild plan, so long as you ignore large parts of history and rewrite others. In any case, it matters not in the reality of today, nor does it bear any weight on the rule and reality of law. You simply place far to much stock in this silly Rothschild conspiracy.

You say you 'check the facts' bulldung .

Says you, without any supporting evidence. Even though you eventually shot yourself and your position in the proverbial foot with your own post. After denying the legality outright.

WW1 was a war in which the banks were paid back all loans with interest, win or lose. That's right the loser had to pay the banks back before any of the ones fighting got care for themselves, using loans with more interest if it could be arranged. Along with other allegations there is enough 'proof' that they should at least be investigated in full.

You'll get no argument from me about the rich wanting to get richer on the backs of the people. But your silly conspiracy falls short on facts and is simply a diversion.

That is the immoral and illegal part that is never talked about.

I'm here to talk about it, post a thread on the illegality of stopping Iran from having nuclear stockpiles. I'd be interested in hearing what you think.

Our courts are geared to allow it to seek justice further down the line if the ones who commit the crimes were not also the ones to plan the crime. The US and Israel play that card several times a week, every week, yet it is a card that only they have, nobody else has that same right, under laws that they themselves have written. The down-trodden do not have to accept that as a fact that cannot be changed.

Bullsh!t. This simply flies in the face of reality. There is literally a ton of documented case law and cases of the little man taking on a giant and winning.

If Hamas made Israel the offer to recognize them if they would allow Hamas's grievances (starting back in Nov '47) to be heard by the ICC would they jump at the opportunity to end this 'armed conflict'?

Since they don't need Israel's approval to file a grievance with the ICC, your question is ridiculous.

I don't think they would because I don't think they think they could win, Israel would then have 5.5 m Arabs have just come home.

How many times has someone brought a grievance to the ICC, about Israel?

The bockade breaking was the goal, at the moment that is the direction things are going despite false claims by Israel and the US, as in the article below.

Thank you for conceding that this flotilla had nothing to do with humanitarian aid, and was simply an attempt to break a lawful blockade.

PA denies Abbas report on maintaining Gaza siege Aletho News

I'll explain that post in simple terms. The content was secondary, though I acknowledged it. The intent of my post and quoting of said article, was to highlight the tactics used to gloss over and move on, as you had mentioned once before, and have done numerous times. As I clearly stated in the post.

"attacking Israel"
A few people that Israel has declared to be terrorists (with no opportunity to dispute that charge) had an opportunity to beat up some Israeli military people and they took advantage to give them some bruises. A terrorist would have chosen a softer target for releasing their anger on

Your point?

The whole reason those people were given that area is a claim that they lived there some 2,000 years ago and they claim they are fulfilling prophecy. In a sense they are, they are showing that they are still acting just like Jesus said in Matt:23.
At least I can understand the Scripture they are trying to pass of as justification. It's false plain and simple and when confronted they do not push the issue.

Like I said, you're the only one that keeps bringing up the bible.

Bear you remember the legality issue I conceded to was the one of the right to board a ship that is about to enter a blockade, basically a zone of an armed conflict and I have seen no law that states a signed 'cease fire' can justify gun play on the open Ocean.

Unfortunately you read with blinders on. A ceasefire does not mean the conflict is over, and at anytime, when a lawful act is confronted with violence, they may use lethal for self defense. That of course is made irrelevant by the fact that the flotilla is a neutral third party, and not subject to the cease fire, nor to the agreements between Israel and Hamas. They are however subject to international law regarding armed conflict, laws of naval blockades and so on. As outlined and exampled in your own post, which you conceded to, but still argue about, incessantly. Because it is battling your ideology. Logic and fact is simply taking a back seat to what you want to believe at this point, as you attempt to find something to make it all better for you and continue your course.

They only have the right to search a confiscate they do not have the right to deviate the ship away from their intended destination.

I've already explained to you, using your own posted laws, why that is patently false.

You missed the memo, they already own it and they have for centuries, nothing 'big' happens without them knowing about it and approving it. See how well they have you buffaloed and you claim to be on top of things.

I watched all the video's I could find, even bought a couple books on the subject. I went so far as to write the authors of said books, and sent emails to the producers of said videos, with links to this site, with a challenge to debate me on the mangled history they use to formulate their BS. If you wish to take up that challenge, feel free to start a thread and I'll tear apart the absurd revisionist history you will undoubtedly use to formulate your strawman.

The article shows they cannot claim to be of higher moral character than anybody in the near or far past., they play that card constantly.

You're trying to do it again.

The US has just announced their support for Israel doing an impartial inquiry into the Humanitarian Aid Flotilla Massacre which resulted in the deaths of at least 8 Turkish and 1 American citizens.

That's 9 Turkish citizens. Please try and keep the BS in your posts, to a minimum. Even the article quoted in your post doesn't try and lie about Furkan's nationality, despite being from a biased MSM news source, despite the fact that many of your posts claim that western media is biased in the opposite direction and do not tell the truth.

(Other people are still missing and may be dead or locked away in Israeli torture chambers.)
White House backs Israeli internal inquiry into Gaza flotilla deaths | World news | The Guardian

The article contains no mention of these fictitious missing people, yet your post would have us believe it does, by the placement of that small caption. This is the same tactic your posts have claimed the pro Israeli propagandists use all the time.

I doubt Turkey will be happy. Makes about as much sense as letting an accused criminal conduct their own investigation.

Actually that is pretty much the purpose of mounting a defense, lol. Not to mention the investigation will be overseen by an international panel.

Meanwhile, the people of Gaza are hopeful that Israel's 4 year food, medicine and humanitarian aid blockade might be eased enough for them to get food to end chronic malnutrition which is stunting the growth of tens of thousands of Gaza children.
AFP: Arab chief on landmark visit to Gaza

I've been looking into those claims, I'm not done yet, but from what I've seen, that malnutrition isn't as bad as in other parts of the developed world. The fact that your posts have switched from the starvation of, to the malnutrition of, is telling. The strawman arguments that fill your posts are likely begin to fall short on evidence, and this is simply a switch, without conceding that starvation is not taking place.

The International Committee of the Red Cross regarding Israel's blockade:

An interesting read and an admission of "re-interpreting international law" by the ICRC...

http://web.ceu.hu/legal/pdf%20documents/Nowicki/Meron_The%20Humanization%20of%20the%20Law%20of%20Warbudapest13nov.pdf

More BS "re-interpretation of law"...

Customary International Humanitarian Law

A small quote...

Whereas treaties are written conventions, customary international law derives from the practice of states and is unwritten. A rule is deemed customary, and as such binding on all states, if it is based on widespread, representative and virtually uniform practice supporting the rule.

This why I have been able to tear apart the ICRC's interpretation of international law, several times. It doesn't follow conventional international law, it has attempted to rewrite it. The organizations very existence is a laudable countermeasure to conflict. In so being, it sees all conflict as illegal, under their re-interpretation of law.

That does not make their opinion, based on their admitted re-interpretation of law, legitimate. Unless of course it supports your own ideology, and you ignore international law as it is interpreted by the international community.

It is misguided to use the ICRC's definition of laws to bolster a position, they are not a legal body and as mentioned, they are by their mandate, the counter to conflict. It is simply not a viable or intelligent source of legal commentary or opinion, nor would anyone that understands law or uses "critical thought" use them as a legal rebuttal.

 

[earth_as_one]

BBC

Monday, 14 June 2010

Israel hopes inquiry will turn spotlight on activists

Israel's inquiry into the actions it took against the Gaza flotilla is a carefully calibrated response to the international pressure it faces to provide an accounting for an operation in international waters that cost nine lives.

The inquiry concedes that it has to have an international element.

Without this it would not have been accepted either by the European Union or more importantly the United States.

Even with it, it will be rejected by Israeli critics as inadequate. There had been calls for a full international investigation.

There will be two outside participants - Northern Ireland unionist and former First Minister David Trimble and former Canadian Judge Advocate General (senior military judge) Ken Watkin.

David Trimble recently joined an international "Friends of Israel" group set up by Dore Gold, a close associate of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Mr Trimble is now a Conservative peer.

Brig Gen Watkin has a record of legal activism in military affairs.

He wrote a memo in 2007 warning senior Canadian officers that they could be held "criminally negligent" if they did not prevent or investigate prisoner abuse.

But these two figures seem to have been downgraded to the role of observers.

They will presumably be allowed to see the papers but probably not to determine the outcome.
Conforming to law?

Nor will the inquiry have a free hand. It will not be allowed to directly question the soldiers who took over the ships.

Instead, it will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an Israeli general...

BBC News - Israel hopes inquiry will turn spotlight on activists

What a joke! I can already predict the outcome of an inquiry led by Israelis about their own culpability. But I suppose this sham inquiry will succeed in fooling quite a few Americans and Canadians. Turkey will almost certainly not accept this inquiry's findings.

Here's Turkey's viewpoint:

Israel sets up ship raid inquiry, Turkey wants U.N. probe
Jun 14, 201

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's cabinet approved on Monday an Israeli inquiry into a deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, a commission set to include two foreign observers after international calls for an impartial investigation.

Angered by the killing of nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists, Turkey said the proposed inquiry would be biased and reiterated demands for a U.N.-controlled investigation.

"Israel's one-sided inquiry is not valuable to us. We want a commission to be set up under the direct control of United Nations," Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told a news conference in Ankara Monday.

"If Israel does not heed Turkey's demands, Turkey has the right to review its relations and take measures," he said.

The White House, wanting to soothe relations between Israel and Turkey, two key U.S. allies in the Middle East, has welcomed the proposed Israeli inquiry, and said Israel was capable of conducting a fair probe...

Israel sets up ship raid inquiry, Turkey wants U.N. probe | World | Reuters

 

[CDNBear]

What a joke!

It's already a better set up then the Goldstone inquiry.

I can already predict the outcome of an inquiry led by Israelis about their own culpability.

Of course you can, nothing the Israeli's do, will ever be good enough. Save for committing mass suicide.

But I suppose this sham inquiry will succeed in fooling quite a few Americans and Canadians.

Have you any proof to support this slanderous statement?

Care to explain how this inquiry has failed? Where are the flaws? What are the prerequisites of a fair inquiry in you mind?

Turkey will almost certainly not accept this inquiry's findings.

As will all the bigots.

 

[Goober]

EAO

A point well made -

Beyond Bigotry

The quaint idea that, having learned the lessons of the Holocaust, civilized people would "never again" tolerate genocide has become a cruel joke -- one repeated in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Rwanda, the Balkans, Darfur and beyond.
Radical anti-Semites of the 20th century had a goal: the extermination of Europe's Jews. Radical anti-Semites of the 21st century also have a goal: the extermination of the Middle East's Jewish state. Opposing the former is so much less demanding than opposing the latter.

 

[earth_as_one]

North Korea hopes their impartial inquiry will turn spotlight on South Korea's actions leading to the destruction of a South Korean hate boat.

North Koreas inquiry into the actions it took against the South Korean flotilla is a
carefully calibrated response to the international pressure it faces to provide an accounting for an operation in international waters that cost forty lives.

The inquiry concedes that it has to have an international element.

Without this it would not have been accepted either by the European Union or more importantly the United States.

Even with it, it will be rejected by North Korea's critics as inadequate. There had been calls for a full international investigation.

There will be two outside participants - a high ranking member of the Chinese communist Party and a Judge Advocate General (senior military judge) from Iran.

The Chinese representative recently joined an international "Friends of North Korea" group set up by a close associate of the North Korean President.

The Iranian representative has a record of legal activism in military affairs and once wrote a memo.

But these two figures seem to have been downgraded to the role of observers.

They will presumably be allowed to see the papers but probably not to determine the outcome. The inquiry will not have a free hand. It will not be allowed to directly question any soldiers, and instead will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an North Korean general...

 

[CDNBear]

EAO

A point well made -

Beyond Bigotry

The quaint idea that, having learned the lessons of the Holocaust, civilized people would "never again" tolerate genocide has become a cruel joke -- one repeated in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Rwanda, the Balkans, Darfur and beyond.
Radical anti-Semites of the 20th century had a goal: the extermination of Europe's Jews. Radical anti-Semites of the 21st century also have a goal: the extermination of the Middle East's Jewish state. Opposing the former is so much less demanding than opposing the latter.

I liked this one...

Hamas leaders reject any and all steps that might lead to peace. Abdallah Jarbu has laid out the Hamas position clearly: "I condemn whoever believes in normalizing relations with [Israelis], whoever supports sitting down with them, and whoever believes that they are human beings. They are not human beings. They are not people."

And this one, complete with oft ignored facts, dismissed by the bigots and Joo haters...

Ah, but the root cause of this conflict is Israeli "occupation," isn't it? Except that the conflict began long before Egypt, Jordan and Israel's other Arab neighbours launched a war intended to wipe Israel off the map in 1967. That led to Israel taking Gaza from Egypt and the West Bank from Jordan. Never in history had these "Palestinian territories" been ruled by Palestinian Arabs.

Five years ago, Israel withdrew from Gaza -- every soldier and farmer, leaving behind only productive greenhouses, which Gazans soon destroyed. Had they not done so, Gazans could now be exporting food rather than importing missiles.


Note, too, that on the West Bank, where Israel's security forces work quietly with those of the Palestinian Authority, the economy is booming. At 7%, its annual economic growth rate is among the highest in the world.

And something that bares repeating ad nauseum...

Do such facts matter? The fever of anti-Israelism seems to be rising too fast to be reduced by the cold compress of truth.

Read more: Beyond Bigotry

North Korea hopes their impartial inquiry will turn spotlight on South Korea's actions leading to the destruction of a South Korean hate boat.

The absurdity of that comparison boggles the mind.

 

[earth_as_one]

EAO

A point well made -

Beyond Bigotry

The quaint idea that, having learned the lessons of the Holocaust, civilized people would "never again" tolerate genocide has become a cruel joke -- one repeated in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Rwanda, the Balkans, Darfur and beyond.
Radical anti-Semites of the 20th century had a goal: the extermination of Europe's Jews. Radical anti-Semites of the 21st century also have a goal: the extermination of the Middle East's Jewish state. Opposing the former is so much less demanding than opposing the latter.

The lesson I learned from the Holocaust is that we are just as guilty as the perpetrators if we fail to speak up as people suffer injustice and oppression. Its a mistake to ignore 60 years of ethnic cleansing which has turned millions of people into nationless refugees. "Never Again", didn't apply just to Jews but all of humanity.

Canada and the world failed to act against the injustice and oppression suffered by Jews and other religious/ethnic groups, as the Nazis tried to create a pure Aryan state.

Canada and the world are again failing to act against injustice and oppression suffered by Muslims and other religious/ethnic groups as the Zionists attempt to create a pure Jewish state.

Those who support Zionist oppression and injustice are guilty of repeating the same mistakes which led to the Holocaust.

Only those who oppose Zionist injustice and oppression and actively speak out against it, can legitimately claim to have learned the true lessons of the Holocaust.

 

[CDNBear]

The lesson I learned from the Holocaust is that we are just as guilty as the perpetrators if we fail to speak up as people are turned nationless refugees by ethnic cleansing. Never Again, didn't apply just to Jews but all of humanity.

Yet your posts are simply pro Hamas propaganda. perhaps you could clear something up. Your posts condemn Israel, and defend Hamas, whose stated purpose is to eradicate Jews from the middle east. How does that fit with the the application of "Never Again" for all of humanity?

Canada and the world are again failing to act against injustice and oppression suffered by Muslims and other religious/ethnic groups as the Zionists attempt to create a pure Jewish state.

That is simply not supported by reality. Where the State of Israel is complete with Arab politicians, school teachers, and so on.

How do you factor in such truths, with the erroneous image that statement attempts to create?

Those who support Zionist oppression and injustice and are guilty of repeating the same mistake.

I agree, but there is a contradiction in your posts. On one hand your posts claim to be about the end of human suffering, while other posts defend groups that would perpetuate and not only continue causing human suffering, but commit genocide.

How do you justify this double standard?

Only those who oppose Zionist injustice and oppression and actively speak out against it, can legitimately claim to have learned the true lessons of the Holocaust.

Again, I agree, which is why I can, while you can not.

I can prove that, care to go head to head on that?

 

[Goober]

EAO

"Only those who oppose Zionist injustice and oppression and actively speak out against it, can legitimately claim to have learned the true lessons of the Holocaust."

So Iranians speak out against Zionists yet murder those of minority faiths - Pakistanis the same - Darfur the same - speak out with one side of their mouth while murdering millions -

You and you logic train is not only deeply flawed it is completely illogical - as per the above..

 

[earth_as_one]

Unlike you Goober, I'm consistently against oppression and injustice, whether its in Darfur, Iran, Pakistan or Israel and the occupied territories.

Its hypocritcal to claim to be against oppression and injustice and then support Israel imposing injustice and oppression on millions of Palestinians.

IMO the government of the Sudan has about as much legitimacy criticzing the government of Israel as the government of Israel has criticizing the government of the Sudan.

As far as what's going on in Iran, I trust Amnesty International to be an objective source of information, not western media reports. According to AI, Iran has serious problems related to political oppression, ill treatment in their prison systems and a screwed up justice system. Like the US they have the death penalty and execute minors. reference:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=119

I agree Iran has serious problems, but no Iranian minorities suffer the same level of oppression and injustice as suffered by Palestinian refugees inside Israel and the Occupied Territories. reference:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129

Yes I think Iran has legitimacy criticzing Israel's humanitarian aid blockade, Israel's oppression of Palestinians, but not Israel's criminal justice system or their use of torture.

What Israel does is not as severe as what The Sudan does in Darfur, but the scale of Palestinian injustice and oppression is similar to that suffered by people in the Darfur region. In both cases we are talking about thousands innocent victims killed, torture, refugees/displacement and ethnic cleansing.
Reference:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=251


Pakistan is in the middle of a simmering civil war and all sides are guilty of abuses and atrocities. The belligerents in this conflict are just as guilty as Israel in using disproportionate force, but neither side interferes with refugees trying to flee war zones or the delivery of humanitarian aid like Israel. reference:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=197


Pakistan has legitimacy to criticize Israel's humanitarian aid blockade, oppression of Palestinians, but cannot criticize Israel's disproportionate use of force and torture.

And yes, I think if you can't bring yourself to criticize Israel's atrocious record regarding their treatment of Palestinian civilians, then you haven't learned the lessons of the Holocaust and you have no legitimacy criticizing similar abuses in other countries.

 

[darkbeaver]

Canadian to be part of proposed inquiry into Gaza flotilla incident

The man has genocide ironing experience in Rhawanda so he's ideally conditioned to participate on Vichy Canadas behalf.

100,000 Iranians volunteer to go to Gaza

Israel video of soldiers attacked on Gaza flotilla an obvious forgery: see video proof for yourself



*hyperlinks and videos live at source*
The Israeli government’s video showing their soldiers being attacked as they descended from helicopters is a forgery; proven irrefutably from the ship’s structural features in the video being visibly different from the actual vessel, the Mavi Marmara. The proof is explained in the below 3-minute video; with this story developing. Additional ship details that prove the Israeli government video forgery are in the second 6-minute video.
As I’ve written, this adds to Israel’s government lies in support of unlawful war; now by creating the world’s largest concentration camp in Gaza, and perhaps soon through war against Iran based all on "emperor has no clothes" obvious lies.

The lesson of the holocaust? Mountains Molehills & Magic Obviously the lesson isn't for the uninitiated.

Hoax: Video Showing Heavy Weapons Discovered on Mavi Marmara is a Fraud



A video has been racing around the Internet — purportedly showing heavy weapons discovered behind bags of flour on the Mavi Marmara. The find would serve to justify the lethal raid on the flotilla to Gaza and some posters have asked why no uproar? The answer is because the video is a fraud — it shows a boat that was actually searched in 2009.
Webmaster's Commentary:
This is why the world isn't going to believe one word of any kind kind of commission report coming from Israel as to why they murdered humanitarian aid workers on the high seas.

Canadians will all bear a huge shame for decades if we participate in the exoneration of Israeli murderers at the behest of zionist organized crime.

 

[AnnaG]

Canadian to be part of proposed inquiry into Gaza flotilla incident

The man has genocide ironing experience in Rhawanda so he's ideally conditioned to participate on Vichy Canadas behalf.

100,000 Iranians volunteer to go to Gaza

Israel video of soldiers attacked on Gaza flotilla an obvious forgery: see video proof for yourself



*hyperlinks and videos live at source*
The Israeli government’s video showing their soldiers being attacked as they descended from helicopters is a forgery; proven irrefutably from the ship’s structural features in the video being visibly different from the actual vessel, the Mavi Marmara. The proof is explained in the below 3-minute video; with this story developing. Additional ship details that prove the Israeli government video forgery are in the second 6-minute video.
As I’ve written, this adds to Israel’s government lies in support of unlawful war; now by creating the world’s largest concentration camp in Gaza, and perhaps soon through war against Iran based all on "emperor has no clothes" obvious lies.

The lesson of the holocaust? Mountains Molehills & Magic Obviously the lesson isn't for the uninitiated.

Hoax: Video Showing Heavy Weapons Discovered on Mavi Marmara is a Fraud



A video has been racing around the Internet — purportedly showing heavy weapons discovered behind bags of flour on the Mavi Marmara. The find would serve to justify the lethal raid on the flotilla to Gaza and some posters have asked why no uproar? The answer is because the video is a fraud — it shows a boat that was actually searched in 2009.
Webmaster's Commentary:
This is why the world isn't going to believe one word of any kind kind of commission report coming from Israel as to why they murdered humanitarian aid workers on the high seas.

Canadians will all bear a huge shame for decades if we participate in the exoneration of Israeli murderers at the behest of zionist organized crime.

lol You claim that one video is fraudulent without hesitation because you don't like what it shows and yet accept another video as being accurate without blinking because it supposedly refutes what the first video shows. lmao
Also interesting is that you prejudge this Canadian investigator before he's done anything concerning this issue.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes, I'm hearing similar accusations about the IDF videos being fabrications. But I suspect the IDF videos are accurate.

If the IDF wanted to fabricate a video regarding the events on the Mavi Marmara, why would they use another boat? The IDF seized the Mavi Marmara. I doubt the IDF would be so incompetent as to use another boat, when they possessed the real thing.

Besides, the Mavi Maramara activists admit to using chairs, broom handles and other weapons of opportunity against Israeli commandos, as seen in the IDF video. I never heard any admit to using metal bars or knives, but activitists who treated the Israeli commandos claimed their IDF commando injuries included stab wounds and blunt force trauma, which indicates some of the activists resorted to potentially lethal force.

What's missing in the IDF video is context. The Israeli videos don't show events leading up to the landing of the commandos or after the activists surrendered.

Some activists claim the IDF used lethal force first before the activists resisted and before the IDF landed their commandos. If that claim is true then the activitists could argue they were defending themselves from unprovoked lethal force.

Other activists claim they seized lists of people the IDF wanted to kill from the captured IDF commandos and that the IDF used lethal force execution style after the activists surrended and stopped resisting.

So yes many unanswered questions remain and I doubt they will be answered to the satisfaction of Turkey and most of the rest of the world by the proposed Israeli inquiry.

 

[AnnaG]

I think it's really strange that people put so much stock in videos they find in news articles and wherever. Last year there was someone that posted a video that showed Iraqis staging a screen play about how the "actors" were being persecuted by Americans. How anyone can believe videos is enigmatic, IMO.

 

[earth_as_one]

I think it's really strange that people put so much stock in videos they find in news articles and wherever. Last year there was someone that posted a video that showed Iraqis staging a screen play about how the "actors" were being persecuted by Americans. How anyone can believe videos is enigmatic, IMO.

I agree with you that the IDF videos could be fabrications, but they do correspond with activist statements.

 

[AnnaG]

I agree with you that the IDF videos could be fabrications, but they do correspond with activist statements.

:roll: I am not pointing fingers at ANY particular group because ANYone can make up videos, even people who are against Israel. Bad spin, EAO.

 

[Goober]

North Korea hopes their impartial inquiry will turn spotlight on South Korea's actions leading to the destruction of a South Korean hate boat.

North Koreas inquiry into the actions it took against the South Korean flotilla is a
carefully calibrated response to the international pressure it faces to provide an accounting for an operation in international waters that cost forty lives.

The inquiry concedes that it has to have an international element.

Without this it would not have been accepted either by the European Union or more importantly the United States.

Even with it, it will be rejected by North Korea's critics as inadequate. There had been calls for a full international investigation.

There will be two outside participants - a high ranking member of the Chinese communist Party and a Judge Advocate General (senior military judge) from Iran.

The Chinese representative recently joined an international "Friends of North Korea" group set up by a close associate of the North Korean President.

The Iranian representative has a record of legal activism in military affairs and once wrote a memo.

But these two figures seem to have been downgraded to the role of observers.

They will presumably be allowed to see the papers but probably not to determine the outcome. The inquiry will not have a free hand. It will not be allowed to directly question any soldiers, and instead will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an North Korean general...

Do you believe any of this crap - Really - North Koreas critics - generally the whole world not all mind you but most..

 

[MHz]

lol You claim that one video is fraudulent without hesitation because you don't like what it shows

At 47 sec it is pointed out that the funnel is different. The flags can be seen flying from the mast going forward to the bow but there are none along the railing.

I don't know if letters show up under infrared (thermal) and I can't find that would prove it one way or the other. I tend to say they wouldn't at night but they might in the day because they would attract heat at different rates. That you can see the hot exhaust shows they are thermal images and not by other means.

 

[AnnaG]

At 47 sec it is pointed out that the funnel is different. The flags can be seen flying from the mast going forward to the bow but there are none along the railing.

I don't care. How can you know that the video refuting the Israeli video is not a concocted one, also? Maybe both videos are BS.

I don't know if letters show up under infrared (thermal) and I can't find that would prove it one way or the other. I tend to say they wouldn't at night but they might in the day because they would attract heat at different rates. That you can see the hot exhaust shows they are thermal images and not by other means.

*shrugs*

 

[earth_as_one]

Do you believe any of this crap - Really - North Koreas critics - generally the whole world not all mind you but most..

I fabricated the entire story to make a point you obviously didn't get. Let me spell it out for you...

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/fun-jokes/93382-north-korea-launch-inquiry-into.html

:roll: I am not pointing fingers at ANY particular group because ANYone can make up videos, even people who are against Israel. Bad spin, EAO.

So I was jerking your chain. Where's your sense of humor AnnaG?

Obviously neither side in this can be trusted. Even if the Israeli video is accurate, its selectively missing context. What happened before and after the IDF video is just as important as what the video shows. The activists have levelled serious accusations against the IDF, which could explain their actions.

I doubt an inquiry consisting only of Israelis and two outsider observers without any powers, which is based entirely on Israeli military reports will answer these questions to the satisfaction of Turkey or anyone else skeptical of Israeli claims about what happened.

1) Did the Israeli's use lethal force before the commandos boarded?

2) Did the Israelis use lethal force after they subdued the activists?