Canadian gun rights.

L Gilbert

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Nov 30, 2006
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I think it's funny that as soon as someone mentions guns, they focus on the USA as a comparison when there are loads of other countries around; some like Switzerland which has few firearms laws and gobs of firearms and very little crime, or Mexico which has many draconian and archaic laws, or Brazil which has lots more restrictive firearms laws than the States and yet has more deaths due to firearms and 100 million fewer people, or East Timor where people outside the military or police aren't allowed to have guns but everyone and their dog has one, etc.
 

barney

Electoral Member
Aug 1, 2007
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Ger, read your history, success at 100% arms control, (except for the followers of the regime of course) has preceeded totalitarianism 100% of the time, genocide often follows. It goes back millennia to feudal Japan, China, Mongolia, Rome, Europe... Look to recent history at places like Soviet Russia, Germany, China, North Korea, (or the euphemistically named Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea), Uganda, Rwanda, Ethiopia... And I'm willing to bet a paycheque that the citizens of these countries also were adamant it would never happen to them.

People see these things coming but there's a momentum effect and it's like a wave of that you can't stop. Also in most of those examples people didn't have arms because they couldn't afford them, being largely made up of peasants.

That said, there is something to completely disarming a population; following the Bolshevik takeover in Russia, one of their many undemocratic acts was to disarm the population in their dissolution of the Soviets, thus eliminating the population's ability to threaten power.

There is something to be said for one's ability to arm oneself as a deterrent to oppression, the logic being that a regime is less likely to have its army go around terrorizing the population is the population is armed. But in a country like Canada for instance, there are a lot of governmental barriers that exist to what you're talking about--those barriers didn't exist back then, or even in the German republic for that matter.

I mean, it seems blatantly obvious.....if someone decides to kill someone, and they have available a kitchen knife, a can of gasoline and a match, a baseball bat, a golf club, my car, a cast iron frying pan, a rock, a sword, and a 12 gauge shotgun.........one will generally use the 12 gauge shotgun. Now....to be justified in your claim that the restriction of the availability of the shotgun will stop killing, you need to demonstrate that one won't simply complete the act with one of the other tools available.....

And that is a very difficult task.......considering most of Canada's murders are committed without guns......

If we're talking basic common sense, then would it not be just as acceptable to say that the fact that most of Canada's murders have been committed without guns suggests that the reason is limitations on said guns?

Afaik, majority of gun crimes crimes committed in the US involve handguns, followed by other, slightly more sophisticated but just as easily wield-able single-hand operated weapons (e.g. machine pistols--uszis--and things like sawed-off shotguns). These are usually the primary targets of gun control.

Basically it's very difficult to justify owning anything more sophisticated than a bolt-action rifle to say nothing of a fully automatic weapon. As far as self-defence at close range goes, none-lethal systems are probably just as effective, without the nasty side-effects of accidentally killing someone, or yourself for that matter.

(It should be noted that a skilled marksman with even your most basic hunting rifle potentially poses a major threat to society, as the accuracy and range of the weapon allow the user to create many victims over a very short period of time with virtual impunity. Hence the reason for the mass panic and extremely heavy police response on the rare occasions where that has happened (mostly in the US...big surprise). Fortunately it doesn't happen often because, I would guess, that people who can effectively operate these weapons tend to generally be of sound mind--as far as criminal behaviour is concerned at least.)

More to the point, the cause of most gun crime is the same as most crime in general: poverty. Eliminate poverty and you eliminate the reason for needing gun control.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Incredible. And yet one more thread on guns. Are people that lazy they can't use the search function? Or that stupid they think we haven't discussed this at length before?
If people want to ban something, ban criminals. Guns are around and always will be as long as we have criminals. And its immensely moronic to subject the majority of gunowners to laws that are ineffective at doing what they are supposed to do.

Exactly, the vast majority of people I've heard wanting to ban them know nothing about them (not that I'm an expert by any means but do know which end the bullet comes out of and in my younger day was known to be capable of knocking a tin can off a fence post)
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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Hmmm....speaking of cherry picking.....

One of my pet peeves is the use of "gun murder" statistics.......they are a complete red herring. If the anti-gun forces believe taking my weapons away will lower the murder rate.......then they must demonstrate that there is not simply a move to other weapons.....

I mean, it seems blatantly obvious.....if someone decides to kill someone, and they have available a kitchen knife, a can of gasoline and a match, a baseball bat, a golf club, my car, a cast iron frying pan, a rock, a sword, and a 12 gauge shotgun.........one will generally use the 12 gauge shotgun. Now....to be justified in your claim that the restriction of the availability of the shotgun will stop killing, you need to demonstrate that one won't simply complete the act with one of the other tools available.....

And that is a very difficult task.......considering most of Canada's murders are committed without guns......

Quite true. People have even been known to use cars as murder weapons. The problem with guns is that they are very easy to use and often easily available. A firearm would certainly be my choice if I wanted to make a quick end to someone. That may well be why gun deaths in the US are so much higher than in Canada. My guns are locked up as they have to be by law. In some US homes there are guns in every room. It certainly is not difficult to reach for a weapon that is as easily available as a phone.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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There is something to be said for one's ability to arm oneself as a deterrent to oppression, the logic being that a regime is less likely to have its army go around terrorizing the population is the population is armed. But in a country like Canada for instance, there are a lot of governmental barriers that exist to what you're talking about--those barriers didn't exist back then, or even in the German republic for that matter.
Yup.

If we're talking basic common sense, then would it not be just as acceptable to say that the fact that most of Canada's murders have been committed without guns suggests that the reason is limitations on said guns?
.... or simply that there aren't a whole lot of homicidal Canadians?
As has been mentioned, there are plenty of handguns and automatic rifles in Swiss homes and extremely few murders, so it looks like the Swiss aren't particularly homicidal either.
More to the point, the cause of most gun crime is the same as most crime in general: poverty. Eliminate poverty and you eliminate the reason for needing gun control.
Well, a lot of the need for gun control anyway. Eliminating or reducing the illegal drug problem would be another step.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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My 2 cents on the matter is that I certainly don't believe we should have the same rules/laws as what exist in the States.

AKA: It's foolish to hand anybody a gun simply because they possess a drivers' license of said State/Province (Georgia)

Most countries that allow their citizens to own and operate firearms have very strict guidelines, such as needing to serve in a local Militia or at the very least, get proper and extensive training/background checks to ensure some whack-job isn't getting a gun as best as possible.

Simply handing them out left, right and centre because "Criminals already have them" isn't a legit argument.

Get certified, get the proper background checks, get the proper education in operating one just like any police officer or soldier would need to do, and then I won't have an issue.... these requirements are not just to give me peace of mind, but to ensure you know what you're doing and don't end up blowing half your face off doing something stupid. It's simply in everybody's best interests, and it makes sense to have more training and understanding then some punk criminal who just got the gun off the streets and tots it around sideways like some gangsta wanna-be.

Sure they can act all cool and big with their gun sideways..... but you know what you're doing and stand a better chance getting out of the situation alive, while that idiot is hitting everything around you.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Holding a firearm sideways is just plain funny. The only advantages to it I can see are if you are faced with mutliple targets and the random kick might be of some use and that you can actually see your target better without the hammer, slide, sights and whatnot in your view. Oh, and just in case you may be firing an FM ora chaingun in which case having someone guide the belt into the right position might not be needed.
Accuracy-wise it's a laugh and a half and subjects the shooter to a rain of little, hot pieces of brass.
Education is the best bet and sometimes an attitude adjustment is necessary, too.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Holding a firearm sideways is just plain funny. The only advantages to it I can see are if you are faced with mutliple targets and the random kick might be of some use and that you can actually see your target better without the hammer, slide, sights and whatnot in your view. Oh, and just in case you may be firing an FM ora chaingun in which case having someone guide the belt into the right position might not be needed.
Accuracy-wise it's a laugh and a half and subjects the shooter to a rain of little, hot pieces of brass.
Education is the best bet and sometimes an attitude adjustment is necessary, too.

The sideways hold is just a gang thang. I'd love to know where that all started but it is no way to hold a hangun.

I laughed at the chain gun or belt fed comment. As an A-Gunner myself I would have hated to have to feed a belt under the weapon while my gunner looks cool firing it. My face would have been covered with singeing brass.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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The sideways hold is just a gang thang. I'd love to know where that all started but it is no way to hold a hangun.

I laughed at the chain gun or belt fed comment. As an A-Gunner myself I would have hated to have to feed a belt under the weapon while my gunner looks cool firing it. My face would have been covered with singeing brass.
The feed side was the same as the eject side? Weird.
Anyway, I tried it one time just for the hell of it. 1 round from my baby eagle and the spent went up and then landed on my arm. Nuffathatnonsense.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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What do you all think about gun rights in Canada? Personally, I wish we had the same gun rights as the States. Criminals own guns regardless, so the only people affected by our inane gun registry is law-abiding citizens. I mean it is extremely easy to smuggle guns across the border, especially if you have ill-intent.

I support gun rights for handguns, shotguns, rifles, and possibly, semi-automatics. Then I also support the right to shoot and kill someone if they break into your house with a weapon themselves, and get away with it.

What do you think about gun rights?

Yep. I think I'd like to have a nice Glock or .45 type in my vest. Then I could kill all those motherf^cking people that have had the gall moxie to cross ME! Do you know what a benifit this law would have been to me? Like f^ck, there was that goof that screwed my wife, true story, he is still walking around because I don't really have easy access to a gun. Not to mention the spirit of that amendment, the government, they would screw me just as hard if I had these gun rights, just like the US.
How has easy access to guns helping the US people protect themselves froml their government???
That is what the second amendment was designed to do. It's not f^cking working. Spool out every stat you want, the second amendment does not protect the people from the government. It just raises gun deaths among the general populous.
 

eh1eh

Blah Blah Blah
Aug 31, 2006
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I think it's funny that as soon as someone mentions guns, they focus on the USA as a comparison when there are loads of other countries around; some like Switzerland which has few firearms laws and gobs of firearms and very little crime, or Mexico which has many draconian and archaic laws, or Brazil which has lots more restrictive firearms laws than the States and yet has more deaths due to firearms and 100 million fewer people, or East Timor where people outside the military or police aren't allowed to have guns but everyone and their dog has one, etc.


Humans are stupid. Sorry dude.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Yep. I think I'd like to have a nice Glock or .45 type in my vest. Then I could kill all those motherf^cking people that have had the gall moxie to cross ME! Do you know what a benifit this law would have been to me? Like f^ck, there was that goof that screwed my wife, true story, he is still walking around because I don't really have easy access to a gun. Not to mention the spirit of that amendment, the government, they would screw me just as hard if I had these gun rights, just like the US.
How has easy access to guns helping the US people protect themselves froml their government???
That is what the second amendment was designed to do. It's not f^cking working. Spool out every stat you want, the second amendment does not protect the people from the government. It just raises gun deaths among the general populous.

First of all, you don't carry a Glock .45 ACP in your vest.

Secondly, (and most importantly) the last time I looked, the USA was a pretty healthy democracy.....arguably more so than our own.

Third, there is a HUGE gap between wanting to shoot an arsehole, and actually DOING it.
 

Colpy

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With the sideways hold.....no wonder innocent bystanders get hurt:roll:

When I did my course to qualify as a training officer with my old armoured car company, they brought in a couple of real hotshots to teach us.......one guy who shot with the handgun canted almost 45% off the perpendicular when he shot one-handed....and MAN! he could shoot.....

Odd....I have never before or since seen anyone fire a pistol in that manner.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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When I did my course to qualify as a training officer with my old armoured car company, they brought in a couple of real hotshots to teach us.......one guy who shot with the handgun canted almost 45% off the perpendicular when he shot one-handed....and MAN! he could shoot.....

Odd....I have never before or since seen anyone fire a pistol in that manner.
I've seen people hold wood planes wrongly but still effectively, too, or ride a bicycle while sitting backwards on it. But that's an exception, not a general activity.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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When I did my course to qualify as a training officer with my old armoured car company, they brought in a couple of real hotshots to teach us.......one guy who shot with the handgun canted almost 45% off the perpendicular when he shot one-handed....and MAN! he could shoot.....

Odd....I have never before or since seen anyone fire a pistol in that manner.
About ten years ago I had seen a movie , I think it was the Israeli mosaad in that movie that was holding his gun that way...so the next night I was at the club alone (I wouldn't want my friends to see me shoot like that) I tried it with with my ruger 44 . out of 5 shots using the sights only one shot hit the paper....on the left....not using the sights 4 out of five hit the paper....
That guy you mentioned might have had his gun sighted for his particular hold.
I also was using mild target loads, which apparently makes a difference at what point of the muzzle flip the bullets comes out....and I was using the hog leg style Ruger Blackhawk with a custom 4" barrel.
 

Risus

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May 24, 2006
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About ten years ago I had seen a movie , I think it was the Israeli mosaad in that movie that was holding his gun that way...so the next night I was at the club alone (I wouldn't want my friends to see me shoot like that) I tried it with with my ruger 44 . out of 5 shots using the sights only one shot hit the paper....on the left....not using the sights 4 out of five hit the paper....
That guy you mentioned might have had his gun sighted for his particular hold.
I also was using mild target loads, which apparently makes a difference at what point of the muzzle flip the bullets comes out....and I was using the hog leg style Ruger Blackhawk with a custom 4" barrel.
I've seen guns being held that way on tv as well. Can't remember the details.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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The sideways hold is just a gang thang. I'd love to know where that all started but it is no way to hold a hangun.

I laughed at the chain gun or belt fed comment. As an A-Gunner myself I would have hated to have to feed a belt under the weapon while my gunner looks cool firing it. My face would have been covered with singeing brass.

Think that is movie and trick shot stuff, never actually saw anyone doing it except as a desperation shot, it looks good though. I personally still point shot for close work and two handed for competition. Don't ya just hate it when a spent cartridge lands on your skin? :)
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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There is something to be said for one's ability to arm oneself as a deterrent to oppression, the logic being that a regime is less likely to have its army go around terrorizing the population is the population is armed. But in a country like Canada for instance, there are a lot of governmental barriers that exist to what you're talking about--those barriers didn't exist back then, or even in the German republic for that matter.

But it is the government that can bring down those barriers, during a firearms case in Ottawa the police had obviously overstepped their bounds and were challenged in court. The prosecutor stood before the court and proclaimed that, "the Ottawa police have the right to do whatever they want", quite comforting. People have been harrassed, had their homes ransacked and been arrested for no other reason than they owned firearms. The Liberals' worst kept secret is that they want all citizens disarmed by, I believe, 2025. It is a death by a thousand cuts. Along with low power short barreled .25's and .32's, they made automatic firearms "prohibited" when there is only one, yes one, instance where a submachinegun was ever used for an illegal purpose, that was a soldier who used his issued firearm to take over the Quebec legislature. Firearm violence was actually in decline when the Liberals enacted Bill C-68, a bill not to control firearms, but reportedly, by the Liberals themselves, to control Kim Campbell. A lot of money was spent trying to fix a virtually non existant problem to mainly score political profit. If the problem seems to have gotten worse, it could be argued that it was the law of unintended consequenses, or just serendipity. In any case, what we have isn't working at best, and counterproductive at worst.