Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[Goober]

Cliffy

This is the quote that EAO agrees with -
How else would you interpret it but pure Anti Jewish - Jewish Controlled media -

CanaduhYour quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card"

 

[MHz]

Goober once Muslims control the world will Alberta become Alburkastan? Did you really read all those links you posted, that was a lot of reading if you did.

 

[Goober]

Goober once Muslims control the world will Alberta become Alburkastan? Did you really read all those links you posted, that was a lot of reading if you did.

No I did not - I tried to find links that would provide some sort of balance - Tried I did - But I am sure that some links may not be of the best quality -

 

[earth_as_one]

Thanks Cliffy. I appreciate your comment.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Israel has as much right to exist, and to defend itself, as does any other state. That isn't the issue. This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times. That territory has been overrun by Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs, Christian crusaders... The heart of the current issue is ancient religious texts that promise the land to more than one group, and the human folly that leads people to think that's important. But it's not really even about religion, it's about tribalism, power, and control. And it's all stupid and pointless, murderous disputes ostensibly over minor religious differences and tiny bits of territory. Sometimes I despair for our species.

 

[Cliffy]

Israel has as much right to exist, and to defend itself, as does any other state. That isn't the issue. This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times. That territory has been overrun by Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs, Christian crusaders... The heart of the current issue is ancient religious texts that promise the land to more than one group, and the human folly that leads people to think that's important. But it's not really even about religion, it's about tribalism, power, and control. And it's all stupid and pointless, murderous disputes ostensibly over minor religious differences and tiny bits of territory. Sometimes I despair for our species.

You've got that straight. I used to despair for our species,but more and more,I am indifferent.Perhaps the world would be a better place without us.

 

[Liberalman]

I can't speak for Canadah, but his statement "Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card" is one line of thought in this book written by Jewish American academic Norman Finklestein:

You can read the book or get a summary by Finklestein himself in this interview:
YouTube - Norman Finkelstein on suffering, morality and justification p1

The Nazi Holocaust was a terrible, horrendous atrocity. Its exploitation for personal profit and as a political weapon to stifle criticism of Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity is disgusting.

Its not that different than how disgusting you are when you play the anti-Semiticism card against anyone who dares criticize Israel. Abusing anti-Semiticism as a weapon to stifle legitimate criticism of Israel diminishes the meaning of anti-Semiticism which IMO is a real problem.

But you aren't alone. Both anti-semiticism and the holocaust have both been abused recently as a means to discredit the UN's Goldstone Report, which details both Israeli and Palestinian war crimes as well as Israeli crimes against humanity:
Read the Goldstone report for yourself:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

or read the 2009 Amnesty International Annual Report regarding Israel and the Occupied Territories:
Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International Report 2009


or consider a Palestinian viewpoint:

Clearly Israel has not fulfilled any of the conditions they agreed to honor when they were recognized by the UN as I already stated here:

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/i...5-israel-right-exist-state-2.html#post1211240

You can say that about any country in the world.
Things happen and things change.

The Arabs decided to get rid of Israel in 1967 and lost the war and also lost some of the land.

The Arabs decided not to take in the displaced Palistinian people.

Israel is willing to take them in if they lay down their weapons and give up and live in peace.

 

[earth_as_one]

You can say that about any country in the world.
Things happen and things change.

The Arabs decided to get rid of Israel in 1967 and lost the war and also lost some of the land.

The Arabs decided not to take in the displaced Palistinian people.

Israel is willing to take them in if they lay down their weapons and give up and live in peace.

I disagree and think Israel should be held to their agreement.

Also this statement is another common misperception:

The Arabs decided to get rid of Israel in 1967 and lost the war and also lost some of the land.

In 1967 Israel attacked their neighbors without warning. Israel initiated that war, not its neighbors. I suggest you read up on it:

Following numerous border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbours, particularly Syria, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967.[8] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt which was launched during the Suez Crisis.[9] Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[10] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.[11] Israel responded with a similar mobilization that included the call up of 70,000 reservists to augment the regular IDF forces.[12]

On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a preemptive attack on Egypt.[13] The Arab countries denied planning to attack Israel, and asserted that Israel's strike was not preemptive but an unwarranted and illegal act of aggression.[14] Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[15][16][17]...

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It wasn't exactly a sneak attack since tensions had been escalating in the region for some time. But Israel initiated that war without without warning. Israeli apologists have distorted the facts regarding the 1967 war from a Pearl Harbor like attack into some sort of self defense.

Most of what people commonly believe about Israel/Zionism is not actually true. The more you dig into Israel's history, the more you discover that many commonly held beliefs regarding this conflict are actually manipulated misperceptions.

 

[earth_as_one]

Israel has as much right to exist, and to defend itself, as does any other state. That isn't the issue. This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times. That territory has been overrun by Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs, Christian crusaders... The heart of the current issue is ancient religious texts that promise the land to more than one group, and the human folly that leads people to think that's important. But it's not really even about religion, it's about tribalism, power, and control. And it's all stupid and pointless, murderous disputes ostensibly over minor religious differences and tiny bits of territory. Sometimes I despair for our species.

Yet another common misperception. You are completely leaving out the four centuries of relative peace in this area before WW I when it was a remote and unimportant corner of the Ottoman empire. During that time, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in relative peace. Jews and Christians were a discriminated minority throughout the Ottoman empire, but as long as they paid their taxes, they were protected by the empire and free to worship their religion without harassment from the government.

Your misperception is that this area always was at war and therefore Zionism didn't really change much, when in fact, the area used to be peaceful until Zionism. In fact many Palestinian Jews opposed Zionism for precisely that reason.

You might find this short article enlightening:

The History of Zionism & Judaism
This text is from an article called "An Open Letter" published in the Jewish magazine, "Hachoma". We think it provides a good historical overview of the history of Zionism and why the Zionist ideology is opposed by religious Orthodox Jews.

The History of Zionism

 

[ironsides]

During World War I, strategists for all the major powers increasingly perceive oil as a key military asset due to the adoption of oil-powered naval ships, new horseless army vehicles such as trucks and tanks, and even military airplanes. Use of oil during the war increases so rapidly that a severe shortage developed in 1917-18.

It was not Zionism that created the problems in the Mid-East, it was the major powers involved in WW-1 that needed oil to run their new machines of war. Keep in mind that Europe had no oil at that time, and all of a sudden discovered they had a great need for it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Your misperception is that this area always was at war and therefore Zionism didn't really change much...

Straw man fallacy; I said no such thing.

 

[darkbeaver]

No I did not - I tried to find links that would provide some sort of balance - Tried I did - But I am sure that some links may not be of the best quality -

You want your thumb weighed in the transaction.

 

[EagleSmack]

That's how the Israeli military treats unarmed non-violent protestors. The soldiers in the video were taken to court but their charges were dismissed and the officer got a promotion.

Any clips of Palestinian treatment of Israeli bus riders? Just curious.

 

[darkbeaver]

The most productive cows are often staked and chained in a pasture. The human world has plainly been fixed to one position with a stake of religion pounded into Jeruselem and there we are to circle in a great stinking perpetual milking parlor. The shepards of men rejoice.

 

[EagleSmack]

Following numerous border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbours, particularly Syria, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967.[8] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt which was launched during the Suez Crisis.[9] Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[10] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.[11] Israel responded with a similar mobilization that included the call up of 70,000 reservists to augment the regular IDF forces.[12]

On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a preemptive attack on Egypt.[13] The Arab countries denied planning to attack Israel, and asserted that Israel's strike was not preemptive but an unwarranted and illegal act of aggression.[14] Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[15][16][17]...

Nothing to see here...move along...

 

[Goober]

Straw man fallacy; I said no such thing.

Dexter Sinister
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000443

I am getting the impression that this site is reasonable - Not slanted as many sites are - Your opinion is?

One thing people should note is that every time Arabs attacked Israel and lost - they always want the land back - and when that does not happen Israel is at fault - Seems to be a common thread that runs through the whole problem in the Mid East.

 

[darkbeaver]

The modern misinterpretation called Israel is at fault according to god. Do you want us to join in the crime and share gods wrath thereby lessoning your share of damnation?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I am getting the impression that this site is reasonable - Not slanted as many sites are - Your opinion is?

I just spent about 15 minutes at it, obviously not long enough to see it all, but from what I DID see I'd have to agree, it seems reasonable and balanced. Certainly worth bookmarking--which I did--and going back to for reference. Thanks for the link, I think you've found a good one. There's so much heated rhetoric out there on this subject, that site is refreshingly laid back.

 

[darkbeaver]

A balanced reasonable approach to chaos and genocide? How the lawyers chortle.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You give up too easily, Beave. Chaos and genocide (not that I'm agreeing that's an accurate description) happen for reasons.