A spanked child may be a better adult

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't think S.J. can see he's on the losing side of an argument-

Losing side of the argument? Surely you jest, JLM. Your side is not only on the losing side, your side has already lost the debate among the experts. These days there is consensus among the experts that spanking is never good for the kids, it is always bad. The only so called experts who extol the virtue of spanking are the right wing extremists, religious right nuts like Dr. Dobson and his likes. Dr. Dobson of Focus on the Family has written several books extolling the virtues of spanking.

nobody is saying "one must spank a child or that it is the best form of punishment", only that it is one form that can be used in certain instances with some success for some who use it. In a post the other day he used the phrase "never say never".

That is where we disagree, JLM. I don't think that spanking is ever justified. 'Never say never' does not apply in some circumstances, it is not an absolute. Thus, 'never say never' does not apply to spanking or death penalty, They are never justified.

 

[countryboy]

And how do you know that that indeed is the case? And spanking your own kid is a strange way to show consideration for others in the store. I am sure many people in the store would much rather she uses nonviolent means to discipline her child, rather than spank him ‘out of consideration to others’.

What usually happens is that the young mother is frustrated out of her wits and takes her frustration out on her child. The child is acting out, so the mother acts out in her own right.

I seriously doubt that the young mother who is out shopping, who has many more things to do after shopping, who is harried, run off her feet doing the chores is acting out of consideration for anybody.

"Have you considered the possibility that the mother might be..." (my quote)

Well, at least I used the word "might" to illustrate one of the possibilities. I note you used the term "I'm sure" which obviously makes you a lot smarter than me, because I've never been able to read minds.

 

[countryboy]

Losing side of the argument? Surely you jest, JLM. Your side is not only on the losing side, your side has already lost the debate among the experts. These days there is consensus among the experts that spanking is never good for the kids, it is always bad. The only so called experts who extol the virtue of spanking are the right wing extremists, religious right nuts like Dr. Dobson and his likes. Dr. Dobson of Focus on the Family has written several books extolling the virtues of spanking.



That is where we disagree, JLM. I don't think that spanking is ever justified. 'Never say never' does not apply in some circumstances, it is not an absolute. Thus, 'never say never' does not apply to spanking or death penalty, They are never justified.

I'm curious as to the other scenarios where "never say never" does not apply? Could you enlighten the masses, please?

 

[AnnaG]

Reminds me of when I was a kid. The worst part about getting caught doing something wrong was having to listen to the long explanation of why the behaviour was wrong, what we need to do to correct it, yadda yadda yadda.

Wake me up when you're finished with the lecture, ma.

lol Well, if you didn't do something wrong, you wouldn't have to listen to the sermon. Negative reinforcement; taking away a bad thing to increase better behavior.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't accept your opinion. It has no factual basis.

You said, "None of these things are done when the perpetrator is angry, not in control of his emotions." - but one of my examples was speeding on to a highway...have you never heard of road rage? (Remember, we said, "if carried to an extreme...")

Your opinion that spanking is a result of uncontrolled anger is pretty hard to take seriously in that you have demonstrated a prejudice against it throughout the thread and are unwilling to consider other people's opinions on the subject.

In legal terms, that automatically disqualifies you from jury duty. :-|

I am not on any jury duty, countryboy. I am simply stating the opinion of the experts in the matter (opinion with which I happen to agree). Most experts do think that most spanking happens out of anger, they don’t think it serves any useful purpose.

Indeed, that is why it has pretty much been abolished in public schools these days. And parents who do it to excess can be had in front of the courts for child abuse (which was unheard of 50 years ago, in ‘good old days’).

 

[lone wolf]

lol Well, if you didn't do something wrong, you wouldn't have to listen to the sermon. Negative reinforcement; taking away a bad thing to increase better behavior.

Wanna bet? ;-) I sat through many a sermon where it was one of my siblings who should have been in the hot seat. It sucked being the oldest sometimes... :lol:

 

[lone wolf]

I am not on any jury duty, countryboy. I am simply stating the opinion of the experts in the matter (opinion with which I happen to agree). Most experts do think that most spanking happens out of anger, they don’t think it serves any useful purpose.

Indeed, that is why it has pretty much been abolished in public schools these days. And parents who do it to excess can be had in front of the courts for child abuse (which was unheard of 50 years ago, in ‘good old days’).

Where's the link? You'll excuse me if I won't take your word for it....

 

[Colpy]

You pointed out the solution yourself, countryboy. Little children should not be near the farm machinery. Time enough to teach them about farm machinery when they are old enough to understand.

Why do 2 or 3 year old need to know about safety of farm machinery? The sensible solution (instead of beating the children) is to keep them away from the farm machinery.

You have obviously spent no time on a working farm.............and kids have a habit of getting into things they are not meant to be around.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Which demonstrates my contention perfectly "those who won't admit they are wrong or adjust their opinions don't learn anything".................:smile::smile::smile::smile:

Oh, you want me to admit that my view that spanking is always wrong to be in error, do you? Then I suppose you also want most child experts, child psychologists to admit that they are wrong as well?

Well, don’t hold your breath.

 

[AnnaG]

Most kids are not stupid and 99% of them know when and what they are doing is wrong, they just weren't quite smart enough not to get caught- when they tell the teacher to *^)* off or push over Farmer Brown's outhouse, they know it's wrong- that is any kid over 4. Maybe some of the subtleties of ettiquette needs explaining, but the lying, stealing, cheating and insubordination they know is wrong.

If they are shown what is right and wrong to begin with. Young children learn by example. They start out copying language parents' use (among other things). Then they start thinking about things. So we reinforce what is good behavior (or punish bad) and they clue in.

 

[lone wolf]

Oh, you want me to admit that my view that spanking is always wrong to be in error, do you? Then I suppose you also want most child experts, child psychologists to admit that they are wrong as well?

Well, don’t hold your breath.

No ... an admission that sometimes it is a last resort would be a great start.

Try reasoning with a five-year-old's temper tantrum in the middle of a busy intersection....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Well, at least I don't have to worry about getting a spanking for it! :lol:

Besides, it says in the Charter - section 2 "Fundamental Freedoms"..."Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion, and expression including freedom of the press and other media of communication;"

Countryboy, I am sure there will be a Charter case on spanking some day. It would be interesting to see if the courts declare it to be cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

When I was a kid if I was caught doing something out of line at school I was given the leather strap across the hands by the principal....Sister Loretta. Then she would give me a note to bring home to my parents. When my parents read the note I got another 'trimming' just for getting in trouble at school. Needless to say I became a well behaved student after a couple of those episodes. And I hold no hard feelings toward Sister Loretta or my parents because of that. Just sayin'....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Of course it does.. That's what spanking usually comes down to.. A bad parent will use spanking as a quick means to incompetence.

A good parent finds alternatives..

Exactly the point I made a while ago, Francis. Spanking is the easy way out, people do tend to take the easy way out (and then couch it in religious, noble, altruistic terms, like ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’).

 

[gerryh]

So called "chilkd experts" have a history of being wrong and "adjusting" their thinking.

example: 20 years ago, the recomended solution to get ADD/ADHD children through school was to move them from one school to another every 5 months or so. They found that there was a "honeymoon" period with new environments where the child was more easily "controlled". It is NOW the considered opinion that these children need more structure. An environment that has minimal change and disruption. A complete 180 from what they used to say.

 

[AnnaG]

Little children should not be near the farm machinery.

... alone. I was riding my uncle's and cousins' knees whaen I was a toddler as they baled hay, cut hay, rode around on the horses, etc.

Why do 2 or 3 year old need to know about safety of farm machinery? The sensible solution (instead of beating the children) is to keep them away from the farm machinery.

:roll: Um, so they know what it is and they shouldn't be near the stuff when they are by themselves. If you don't introduce something to them, they will fear it, rather than have respect for it.

 

[lone wolf]

Countryboy, I am sure there will be a Charter case on spanking some day. It would be interesting to see if the courts declare it to be cruel and unusual punishment.

CBC News - Canada - To spank or not to spank?

Not yet....

 

[AnnaG]

Wanna bet? ;-) I sat through many a sermon where it was one of my siblings who should have been in the hot seat. It sucked being the oldest sometimes... :lol:

lmao Well, there're always the times when the innocent get caught in the crossfire.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

A child who gets a whack in the store often gets one as a quick fix - a necessary one. Children are well aware of the fact that loud screaming often gets them the toy/candy/movie they want. Children have to learn the word no and not everyone has the time for the text book answers you are providing. Not all children respond to those text book answers either.

VanIsle, I remember once in a food store I saw a family, man, woman and the little girl. The girl did something, I couldn’t see what. The mom came and gave the girl a sound whack.

A couple of minutes later she must have done something else again, I couldn’t see what. This time dad came and gave her a sound whack. Both time the girl did not cry or scream, she sat quietly.

I truly felt sorry for the girl. She was being taught form the childhood that violence is routine. It wouldn’t surprise me if after growing up she got involved in abusive relationships. It seems to me that to her, love was equivalent to a beating.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Not all spanking is the result of an enraged bad parent.

You two live in some world, where you see horror and abuse in everything.

Not at all, TenPenny. We listen to the experts. And having raised a boy without ever laying a hand on him, I know from personal experience that experts know what they are talking about.