Defence? Sorry, not allowed. Off to jail with you.

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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With all the discussions about Trudeau and 'his' Charter, I thought it would be interesting to see what people think about Ontario's 'stunt driving law'.

It's blatantly unconstitutional - you can go to jail for 6 months and are not allowed to present a defense.

Ontario is still in Canada, isn't it?

(from the Globe and Mail)
Justice Peter West ruled that having a potential penalty of up to six months in jail violates the Charter of Rights because the law does not allow the accused to present a defence.
It's the second time a provincial court has struck down the law as unconstitutional, and the first case is scheduled to be heard by the Court of Appeal in the new year.
The Attorney-General's ministry said in an e-mail that its position is that “the street racing provisions are Constitutional and they are an important public safety initiative.”
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Well, if one is caught street racing, the only mitigation I can fathom is the severity of the sentence. But Canadian courts should allow a defense. Anything else is just kangaroo court and a smear on our justice system.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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Well, if one is caught street racing, the only mitigation I can fathom is the severity of the sentence. But Canadian courts should allow a defense. Anything else is just kangaroo court and a smear on our justice system.
What possible defense could there be regarding street racing? Everyone in Canada is entitled to go to court should the need arise but how can anyone get out of the charge? They should not and any judge that allows them less time IMO is a smear on our justice system. I'm sure you recall the incident in Richmond a few (very few) years ago where a member of the RCMP was killed due to an incident of street racing. The street racers smashed into his police car. It was a fluke that it was a police car that was hit and a police officer killed. It could have been anyone and I think that is the main point of the charges.
 

AnnaG

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What possible defense could there be regarding street racing? Everyone in Canada is entitled to go to court should the need arise but how can anyone get out of the charge?
As I said, if they are caught actually street racing, the only defense they would need concerns itself with the severity of the sentence. I guess you missed that part.
If they are only suspected of street racing and charged then a defense would definitely be necessary as to whether they were actually street racing or not.
They should not and any judge that allows them less time IMO is a smear on our justice system. I'm sure you recall the incident in Richmond a few (very few) years ago where a member of the RCMP was killed due to an incident of street racing. The street racers smashed into his police car. It was a fluke that it was a police car that was hit and a police officer killed. It could have been anyone and I think that is the main point of the charges.
So you are against any defense for people charged with street racing? Why not just hang them right there at the scene then? Why go to court at all?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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If there is no way to present a defense then you wouldn't need to be driving at all to be convicted. Cop doesn't like you - charged! How would you defend yourself if you weren't allowed to?
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
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Backwater, Ontario.
What possible defense could there be regarding street racing? Everyone in Canada is entitled to go to court should the need arise but how can anyone get out of the charge? They should not and any judge that allows them less time IMO is a smear on our justice system. I'm sure you recall the incident in Richmond a few (very few) years ago where a member of the RCMP was killed due to an incident of street racing. The street racers smashed into his police car. It was a fluke that it was a police car that was hit and a police officer killed. It could have been anyone and I think that is the main point of the charges.


Every time one is charged with an offense, one should have the benefit of a defense. Would you prefer summary execution at the side of the road.?? Sounds like it might be a heck of an idea sometimes, but, really, not.

Canada eh; freedom, rights, laws, etc. If you want to give them up, don't bitch when the cops kick your door down because a neighbour said he/she THOUGHT they saw you smoking pot, or whatever.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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What possible defense could there be regarding street racing? Everyone in Canada is entitled to go to court should the need arise but how can anyone get out of the charge?

Maybe it wasn't you and your car. Maybe you were somewhere else at the time. Maybe the cop hates you because he's screwing your wife?

Shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself before they take your car and put you in jail?
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
31,563
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Defence? Sorry, not allowed. Off to jail with you.

If there is no way to present a defense then you wouldn't need to be driving at all to be convicted. Cop doesn't like you - charged! How would you defend yourself if you weren't allowed to?


This was going to be my question. Not that anyone is ever wrongly or
falsely accused of anything ever....but it happens. What if you're
innocent?
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
31,563
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Defence? Sorry, not allowed. Off to jail with you.

Street Racing Bill Becomes Law

.....so....

These new offences build upon existing Criminal Code offences and provide
enhanced maximum penalties of incarceration for the most serous street racing
offences. Bill C-19 also creates mandatory minimum periods of driving prohibition
for those convicted of street racing. "This is the type of penalty Canadians expect
for those who abuse the privilege of operating a motor vehicle and put the lives of
innocent people at risk," said Minister Toews.

....so.....following the links....looking for a legal definition of this "Street Racing"...

Bill C-19: An Act to amend the Criminal Code (street racing) and to make a consequential amendment to the Corrections and Conditional Release Act (LS-531E)

A. Definition of “Street Racing” (Clause 1)

Clause 1 of the bill defines “street racing” for the purposes of the Criminal Code.
(46) The new definition, which will appear in section 2 of the Code, is virtually
identical to the definition found in Bill C-65(47) and is similar to in substance to the
definition in Mr. Cadman’s bill.(48)

The definitions in the three bills require that two or more motor vehicles be
involved. As did Bill C-65, Bill C-19 uses the expression “operating a motor vehicle
in a race with at least one other motor vehicle” (emphasis added). The proposed
definition therefore does not seem to include a race against the clock, in which
only one motor vehicle is involved.(49)

As well, the expression “motor vehicle” is already defined in section 2 of the Code,
(50) and it might mean that a race between, for example, motorcycles,
snowmobiles or all‑terrain vehicles could be characterized as a “street race.” On
the other hand, under the definition in the bill, the “race” must take place in a
public place.(51)

Overall, the definition of street racing in the bill is stated in general terms, unlike
the definition in the British Columbia statute, for example.(52) This could be
because, among other things, the five new offences created by the bill require, in
addition to involvement in street racing, the same constituent elements (mens rea
and actus reus) as do dangerous operation(53) and criminal negligence,(54) which
are already described in the Code.

The definition of street racing can apply to a broad range of activities, and it
relates both to organized street racing and to improvised events.

B. Street-Racing Offences (Clause 2)

The most notable difference between Bill C-19 and the earlier street-racing bills is
the creation of street-racing offences. While Bill C-65 and Mr. Cadman’s bill dealt
with street racing as an aggravating circumstance, Bill C-19 introduces five specific



street-racing offences into the Code:
  • dangerous operation not causing bodily harm or death, committed while street racing (new subs. 249.4(1) of the Code);
  • dangerous operation causing bodily harm, committed while street racing (new subs. 249.4(3) of the Code);
  • dangerous operation causing death, committed while street racing (new subs. 249.4(4) of the Code);
  • criminal negligence causing bodily harm, committed while street racing (new s. 249.3 of the Code);
  • criminal negligence causing death, committed while street racing (new s. 249.2 of the Code).
At present, the courts that enforce the Criminal Code use the dangerous operation
(55) or criminal negligence(56) provisions to punish street racers.
____________________________________
Now we know what this Thread is about.
 

TrapperSnapper

New Member
Oct 11, 2009
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Racing implies being involved in some sort of competition. Speeding is not racing.

Sounds like the wording of the law needs to be changed. This would also imply that the police officer has to prove a race was taking place on the "street". Therefore a defense would be required.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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This is about the Ontario law. Street Racing, or stunt driving, includes making bad left turns:


Definition, “stunt”
3. For the purposes of section 172 of the Act, “stunt” includes any activity where one or more persons engage in any of the following driving behaviours:
1. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to lift some or all of its tires from the surface of the highway, including driving a motorcycle with only one wheel in contact with the ground, but not including the use of lift axles on commercial motor vehicles.
2. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to cause some or all of its tires to lose traction with the surface of the highway while turning.
3. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to spin it or cause it to circle, without maintaining control over it.
4. Driving two or more motor vehicles side by side or in proximity to each other, where one of the motor vehicles occupies a lane of traffic or other portion of the highway intended for use by oncoming traffic for a period of time that is longer than is reasonably required to pass another motor vehicle.
5. Driving a motor vehicle with a person in the trunk of the motor vehicle.
6. Driving a motor vehicle while the driver is not sitting in the driver’s seat.
7. Driving a motor vehicle at a rate of speed that is 50 kilometres per hour or more over the speed limit.
8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,
i. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to prevent another vehicle from passing,
ii. stopping or slowing down a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates the driver’s sole intention in stopping or slowing down is to interfere with the movement of another vehicle by cutting off its passage on the highway or to cause another vehicle to stop or slow down in circumstances where the other vehicle would not ordinarily do so,
iii. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to drive, without justification, as close as possible to another vehicle, pedestrian or fixed object on or near the highway, or
iv. making a left turn where,
(A) the driver is stopped at an intersection controlled by a traffic control signal system in response to a circular red indication;
(B) at least one vehicle facing the opposite direction is similarly stopped in response to a circular red indication; and
(C) the driver executes the left turn immediately before or after the system shows only a circular green indication in both directions and in a manner that indicates an intention to complete or attempt to complete the left turn before the vehicle facing the opposite direction is able to proceed straight through the intersection in response to the circular green indication facing that vehicle. O. Reg. 455/07, s. 3.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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the-brights.net
This is about the Ontario law. Street Racing, or stunt driving, includes making bad left turns:


Definition, “stunt”
3. For the purposes of section 172 of the Act, “stunt” includes any activity where one or more persons engage in any of the following driving behaviours:
1. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to lift some or all of its tires from the surface of the highway, including driving a motorcycle with only one wheel in contact with the ground, but not including the use of lift axles on commercial motor vehicles.
2. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to cause some or all of its tires to lose traction with the surface of the highway while turning.
3. Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to spin it or cause it to circle, without maintaining control over it.
4. Driving two or more motor vehicles side by side or in proximity to each other, where one of the motor vehicles occupies a lane of traffic or other portion of the highway intended for use by oncoming traffic for a period of time that is longer than is reasonably required to pass another motor vehicle.
5. Driving a motor vehicle with a person in the trunk of the motor vehicle.
6. Driving a motor vehicle while the driver is not sitting in the driver’s seat.
7. Driving a motor vehicle at a rate of speed that is 50 kilometres per hour or more over the speed limit.
8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,
i. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to prevent another vehicle from passing,
ii. stopping or slowing down a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates the driver’s sole intention in stopping or slowing down is to interfere with the movement of another vehicle by cutting off its passage on the highway or to cause another vehicle to stop or slow down in circumstances where the other vehicle would not ordinarily do so,
iii. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to drive, without justification, as close as possible to another vehicle, pedestrian or fixed object on or near the highway, or
iv. making a left turn where,
(A) the driver is stopped at an intersection controlled by a traffic control signal system in response to a circular red indication;
(B) at least one vehicle facing the opposite direction is similarly stopped in response to a circular red indication; and
(C) the driver executes the left turn immediately before or after the system shows only a circular green indication in both directions and in a manner that indicates an intention to complete or attempt to complete the left turn before the vehicle facing the opposite direction is able to proceed straight through the intersection in response to the circular green indication facing that vehicle. O. Reg. 455/07, s. 3.
Is ON trying to categorize all driving offenses under one blanket statute?

"May I see your driver's license and registration, please, sir?"
"What did I do, officer?"
"It appeared you sneezed while at the wheel, sir. That's a violation of section 172 because failing to pay attention to your driving means you weren't in complete control of the vehicle and therefore you were stunt driving".

ON needs its collective heads examined. Firstly to see if there's anything in them. Secondly, to pinpoint the Nazi gene.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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This goes right along with their ability to impound a vehicle and in some cases sell it regardless of whether the registered owner was even in the country. Or when the NDP had their photo radar tax grab in B.C.. The owner got the fine, not the driver proving that as far as dippers are concerned no one should be held accountable for their own actions but whoever had a asset they could grab will pay.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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As I said, if they are caught actually street racing, the only defense they would need concerns itself with the severity of the sentence. I guess you missed that part.
If they are only suspected of street racing and charged then a defense would definitely be necessary as to whether they were actually street racing or not.
So you are against any defense for people charged with street racing? Why not just hang them right there at the scene then? Why go to court at all?
You guessed wrong. I didn't miss anything. I simply stated what possible defence could there be! That - in case you missed it, means if they are caught street racing, what defence could there be!!! I didn't think I had to add every word. You think 6 months for street racing is severe? Well - I don't. The street racing is not happening on country roads. It's happening in the midst of traffic light areas where people are hurt and even killed. For a period of time, it was a real problem in Richmond. Maybe it has reached the same levels or worse in places in Ontario. Just because the article states "no defence" does not give anyone the right to just lay a charge. It's a given that the officer would have to have proof. For anyone who is commenting that charges can be layed for just anything if this goes through (which I'm pretty sure it won't) it's just plain foolish and I really think all of you know it.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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Maybe it wasn't you and your car. Maybe you were somewhere else at the time. Maybe the cop hates you because he's screwing your wife?

Shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself before they take your car and put you in jail?
This is quite possibly the dumbest response to a post I've ever had! I don't even know what you are attempting to say here. Do you honestly believe some cop can just put in a charge without proof? Give it a rest!
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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This is quite possibly the dumbest response to a post I've ever had! I don't even know what you are attempting to say here. Do you honestly believe some cop can just put in a charge without proof? Give it a rest!

I think you need more coffee. You don't seem to have any idea what the law is about or what it means.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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He can if the accused can't defend himself. I guess you just broke the record for dumbest post. Gees, that sure didn't take long.

But wait, people charged with speeding offenses apparently have no need of a defence, because in some people's eyes, everyone charged with a traffic offence must be guilty. I don't follow the logic, but it's there for us to read.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
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But wait, people charged with speeding offenses apparently have no need of a defence, because in some people's eyes, everyone charged with a traffic offence must be guilty. I don't follow the logic, but it's there for us to read.

Wasn't VI's hubby a cop? We should ask him because he was probably perfect and never ever arrested an innocent person. It would be very interesting to find out how he did that.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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This is a tough one, BUT we all know there are unscrupulous cops and unfortunately there are a very few who will single out a person and continue to harrass him for whatever reason. So like any other crime it should go to court and evidence should have to be presented and proven before a conviction can result. As far as I'm concerned the "Charter of Rights" has nothing to do with, it's a farce that was dreampt up by a raving lunatic. I guess there are instances where "street racing" could be hard to prove. If two motorists on a four lane highway are driving abreast above the speed limit are they street racing? For the reasons I've mentioned a conviction should result in a severe sentence, maybe 18 months in jail and a 10 year driving prohibition. That would probably put a damper on it.