Defence? Sorry, not allowed. Off to jail with you.

[TenPenny]

This is a tough one, BUT we all know there are unscrupulous cops and unfortunately there are a very few who will single out a person and continue to harrass him for whatever reason. So like any other crime it should go to court and evidence should have to be presented and proven before a conviction can result. As far as I'm concerned the "Charter of Rights" has nothing to do with, it's a farce that was dreampt up by a raving lunatic. I guess there are instances where "street racing" could be hard to prove. If two motorists on a four lane highway are driving abreast above the speed limit are they street racing? For the reasons I've mentioned a conviction should result in a severe sentence, maybe 18 months in jail and a 10 year driving prohibition. That would probably put a damper on it.

First off, that's the whole point of the Charter of Rights, it guarantees us that we are protected from this sort of thing. That's why it's written down! Without your 'lunatic', there would be no reason that we could claim this sort of thing was wrong.

Second, the whole 'street racing' thing is deceptive; it's a name that Ontario uses for the laws on driving, simply so that they get the emotional reaction from people who think it has to do with young punks drag racing on the streets. It doesn't. Read the list of offences.

 

[JLM]

Ten Penny- I'm by no means an expert on the "Charter of Rights", but there are two things about it that bother me. Rights before conviction is one thing, but rights after conviction is something entirely different - outside of a right to appeal, I think a convicted persons rights should be limited to bare minimum essential to sustain life. Second, while it increases rights for the accused, I don't see the rights for victims being improved, so I don't think "raving lunatic" is inappropriate.

 

[VanIsle]

He can if the accused can't defend himself. I guess you just broke the record for dumbest post. Gees, that sure didn't take long.

You are a mean man.

 

[JLM]

You are a mean man.

I think it would be good to look at this objectively and try to set emotions aside. TenPenny's statement (in defence of the accused) was a fair statement, while it may not happen often or by most cops, stuff like that has happened, if it's happened once that is enough to severely question the matter of laying charges without proof. We are all aware of your loyalty to law enforcement officers and rightly so, most of them are good and try to do a good job, BUT they are ALL capable of making mistakes. (Maybe the guy being accused has an identical twin brother) As for Cannuck being a mean man, I haven't made up my mind yet. :lol:

 

[VanIsle]

Wasn't VI's hubby a cop? We should ask him because he was probably perfect and never ever arrested an innocent person. It would be very interesting to find out how he did that.

First of all Cannuck - myself or someone else would have had to make the assertion that he never arrested an innocent person. I don't believe he ever did but then again - how could I? It's not like we sat down and discussed every charge he made for the day. He was a decent cop and he was fair. He knew around Christmas time lots of people drove home from the office party a little tipsy. Now he could have charged these people making Christmas bad or he could tell them to park their vehicle and he would call for a cab to take them home. Not all cops are out to get every charge they can.
You know, I said there is no defence for street racing. I also said they should get their day in court. I also said this law will probably never be passed. Why didn't you concentrate on those things in stead of looking for the negative? Photo Radar is an example of "no defence". The ticket simply arrived in the mail. It was just a cash grab and we were able to get rid of it here and yes - my husband disagreed with the cash grab as much as the rest of us did. That's what Ontario is looking for - a cash grab. Again I repeat - a cop cannot just charge someone with street racing without proof. I guess one of them could be dumb enough to attempt charges of a kind on something involving a single person but street racing involves more than one person. We used to call it "drag racing" - remember? That is what street racing is in case you haven't figured it out. I remember my brother's and their friends going outside of our little town to drag race but street racing is drag racing in the city and it cannot be allowed to happen.

 

[VanIsle]

But wait, people charged with speeding offenses apparently have no need of a defence, because in some people's eyes, everyone charged with a traffic offence must be guilty. I don't follow the logic, but it's there for us to read.

Okay. Let me clarify something for you. I said there is no defence for being charged with street racing. If you are caught dead to rights, there really is no defence. I did not say they should not go to court to try to defend themselves did I. I'm only talking about drag racing here and I really believe and gave my opinion regarding how I feel about them having no defence. Think about something before you throw out a nasty comment and see if I really meant they should not have their day in court. Along with saying there is no defence, I did say they should have their day in court. Everyone has the right to their day in court. BC was not allowing that via photo radar as I have stated in an earlier post and we protested enough to get rid of it. As my husband often said (and this is so true) go to a place where some person is bitterly complaining about how they were wrongly charged for speeding and then ask them to produce the ticket so everyone can see how fast they were really going! They settle down pretty quick and change the subject because - they were speeding. "I was only doing 10 kmph over the speed limit and they charged me" turns into at least 30 over or more. Yes there are jerks out there that will charge for only 10 over but most don't do that even in a school zone.
I'm sorry I said your post was stupid but it simply did not make a lot of sense and you even wrote it like you were talking to a man.

 

[VanIsle]

First off, that's the whole point of the Charter of Rights, it guarantees us that we are protected from this sort of thing. That's why it's written down! Without your 'lunatic', there would be no reason that we could claim this sort of thing was wrong.

Second, the whole 'street racing' thing is deceptive; it's a name that Ontario uses for the laws on driving, simply so that they get the emotional reaction from people who think it has to do with young punks drag racing on the streets. It doesn't. Read the list of offences.

If it doesn't have anything to do with young punks racing on the streets then I apologize again. I did not read your list of offences. All of my references have to do with the young punks racing.

 

[VanIsle]

I think it would be good to look at this objectively and try to set emotions aside. TenPenny's statement (in defence of the accused) was a fair statement, while it may not happen often or by most cops, stuff like that has happened, if it's happened once that is enough to severely question the matter of laying charges without proof. We are all aware of your loyalty to law enforcement officers and rightly so, most of them are good and try to do a good job, BUT they are ALL capable of making mistakes. (Maybe the guy being accused has an identical twin brother) As for Cannuck being a mean man, I haven't made up my mind yet. :lol:

JLM there is loyalty and then there is loyalty. I am not a loyal fan of a cop just because they are a cop. Not once on these forums have I ever seen anyone post a story about a cop that did a good deed, saved a life, volunteered their services etc. It's always sensationalism just like the media where everyone can do their best to knock law enforcement. Knowing the general age of many of the responders, that surprizes me.

 

[Nuggler]

The police have been known to detain a probable suspect, then look for "clues" to have him charged, ignoring any and all evidence, that he may be innocent.

Their game is to make a charge stick, get a conviction, and get promoted; damn the social cost.

VanIsle, you've never heard of this happening? I find it hard to believe.

I could start naming the poor shytes convicted of murder, who have served years, then been exonerated, by facts which were there all along, but which were ignored by the cops. Marshall et al: You MUST have heard of some of them.

The CPR is not the only Canadian Railroad. There's the justice system too. Sticking with a losing, argument just for the sake of stickin, is not in the least, admirable. I'm not saying you have one, but it is one indication of a closed mind.

 

[TenPenny]

I'm sorry I said your post was stupid but it simply did not make a lot of sense and you even wrote it like you were talking to a man.

I don't pay any attention to the gender of posters.

 

[JLM]

JLM there is loyalty and then there is loyalty. I am not a loyal fan of a cop just because they are a cop. Not once on these forums have I ever seen anyone post a story about a cop that did a good deed, saved a life, volunteered their services etc. It's always sensationalism just like the media where everyone can do their best to knock law enforcement. Knowing the general age of many of the responders, that surprizes me.

Many responses are based more on emotions than facts (even my own once in a blue moon) When a cop shoots a kid in the back of the head for stealing his doughnut, that is going to get a lot more responses than when he helps a 104 year old lady pack her groceries up 10 stories.

 

[Cannuck]

You are a mean man.

...and you are a mean woman. Your point?

 

[TenPenny]

...and you are a mean woman. Your point?

Are you sure you're not just an average man? People often get 'mean' and 'average' confused.

 

[Cannuck]

Are you sure you're not just an average man? People often get 'mean' and 'average' confused.

I'm much better than average. In fact I'm almost good enough to start putting people on ignore.

 

[TenPenny]

I'm much better than average. In fact I'm almost good enough to start putting people on ignore.

Quite so, old boy, but you must remember to tell them that you're ignoring them.

 

[AnnaG]

You guessed wrong. I didn't miss anything. I simply stated what possible defence could there be! That - in case you missed it, means if they are caught street racing, what defence could there be!!! I didn't think I had to add every word. You think 6 months for street racing is severe? Well - I don't.

Ask a lawyer. There's more to a defense than just innocent or guilty. And no, I don't think 6 months is severe. However, one judge sentencing some kid who was street racing and injured someone to six months while another judge sentencing a kid who injured no-one to 5 years is stupid, but it's been known to happen over all manners of convictions. Perhaps you'd just as soon hang them all regardless of severity of offense.

The street racing is not happening on country roads.

Balogna. Kids race everywhere.

It's happening in the midst of traffic light areas where people are hurt and even killed.

Yes, it does.

For a period of time, it was a real problem in Richmond. Maybe it has reached the same levels or worse in places in Ontario. Just because the article states "no defence" does not give anyone the right to just lay a charge. It's a given that the officer would have to have proof.For anyone who is commenting that charges can be layed for just anything if this goes through (which I'm pretty sure it won't) it's just plain foolish and I really think all of you know it.

Nah. It's also been known to happen that a cop will charge someone for no legal reason. We know of two cops from Kelowna, for instance, whose testimonies were refused in court because both had manufactured offences and lied on the stand. One of them, a Cst. D. Jacklin, even tried convincing the court that a 1960 something Volkswagon Beetle averaged 130 MPH between Penticton and Kelowna and that was on the old highway.
Perhaps you think in yes or no, right or wrong, black or white, but not everyone does, fortunately. People charged are entitled to a defense whether you like it or not.

 

[AnnaG]

JLM there is loyalty and then there is loyalty. I am not a loyal fan of a cop just because they are a cop. Not once on these forums have I ever seen anyone post a story about a cop that did a good deed, saved a life, volunteered their services etc. It's always sensationalism just like the media where everyone can do their best to knock law enforcement. Knowing the general age of many of the responders, that surprizes me.

That's their jobs. Would you like to read or hear about Peter the plumber installing a new sink for someone? Or Andy the accountant doing someone's taxes or a store's books? When was the last time you were in the news for doing your job at the grocery store? Rob it and find out how fast your deed hits the newspaper. Or save someone from choking on a grape. Then you'd be in the news. Firemen go to extremes in order to save people, but unless it is something spectacular, what gets in the news is "apartment fire put out by firefighters" and a few details of people being out of their homes.
Of course, there are cops who do a lot of good. I would guess most of them are pretty good. But that isn't news. That's the standard. The exceptions are the ones that hit the news. And someone did post a week or so ago about some cops that did go above and beyond and some died for their troubles.

 

[AnnaG]

Quite so, old boy, but you must remember to tell them that you're ignoring them.

Now who would do a silly thing like that?

 

[taxslave]

This is quite possibly the dumbest response to a post I've ever had! I don't even know what you are attempting to say here. Do you honestly believe some cop can just put in a charge without proof? Give it a rest!

Actually they can and do. I once had an employee that was charged with several B&Es, mostly to clean up all the unsolved ones in the North Island. Some of them were his but there were at least two that happened while he was in jail. When he told the judge this the judge told him to just consider it punishment for the ones he didn't get caught for. Probably fair overall but the fact remains that he was charged and brought to trial for crimes he could not possibly have committed.
It has happened with parking tickets in cities from time to time as well. They just pick a plate # and mail a ticket.

 

[VanIsle]

Actually they can and do. I once had an employee that was charged with several B&Es, mostly to clean up all the unsolved ones in the North Island. Some of them were his but there were at least two that happened while he was in jail. When he told the judge this the judge told him to just consider it punishment for the ones he didn't get caught for. Probably fair overall but the fact remains that he was charged and brought to trial for crimes he could not possibly have committed.
It has happened with parking tickets in cities from time to time as well. They just pick a plate # and mail a ticket.

Everyone is getting completely out of control and mixed up here. I thought we were only talking about street racing and anyone caught in Ontario was not going to be allowed a defence! Taxslave, I think you know that I think decisions made by most judges are dumb ones and unfair as well. They can be unfair to the victim as well as the criminal. Yes - I am also aware that cops can lie and they can also make mistakes. I've said things here firmly believing I was saying the exact truth only to have someone prove me wrong. I'm sure that there are cops who go through exactly the same thing. It doesn't make it right and they should be "man" enough to own up. Some actually do admit to their mistake. Others, like on many jobs I've been on myself and have seen the work of people who cover up their mistakes or the work they simply do not know how to do. It taints the police officers and their fellow workers and over the past 5 or so years, it seems to have really gotten out of hand. I don't see things any different than anyone else but I also know there are lots and lots of good cops out there.