British MP banned from entering Canada

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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I said Hamas is honest and truthful. I never said I agreed with their viewpoint or like them. But I do know where they stand. So does anyone, whether you agree with them or not.

But if you think Hamas has been dishonest, prove it. Give me an example and back it up with references from a reputable source.

Also Hamas has demonstrated integrity. Unlike Israel's leaders they stick to their agreements and keep their word. They are not corrupt or easily bought like Fatah. As a result Hamas has my respect. But again that doesn't mean I agree with their viewpoint or like them. Its possible to respect one's enemies.

I have little respect for Abbas because he is a corrupt dictator who has sold out Palestinians for personal gain.

Netanyahu is slimy weasel. Olmert is up on corrption charges. Liebermann is also under investigation for corruption. Livni and Barak were responsible for the humanitarian aid blockade as well as the blatant November 4, 2008 ceasefire violation. Their word means nothing and they've demonstrated a cold blooded and cruel willingness to exterminate hundreds of innocent civilians in exchange for a few votes.

So yes about the only group in the Israel and the occupied territories who has demonstrated honesty and integrity is Hamas. But no, that doesn't mean I like them.
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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I said Hamas is honest and truthful. I never said I agreed with their viewpoint or like them. But I do know where they stand. So does anyone, whether you agree with them or not.

But if you think Hamas has been dishonest, prove it. Give me an example and back it up with references from a reputable source.

Also Hamas has demonstrated integrity. Unlike Israel's leaders they stick to their agreements and keep their word. They are not corrupt or easily bought like Fatah. As a result Hamas has my respect. But again that doesn't mean I agree with their viewpoint or like them. Its possible to respect one's enemies.

I have little respect for Abbas because he is a corrupt dictator who has sold out Palestinians for personal gain.

Netanyahu is slimy weasel. Olmert is up on corrption charges. Liebermann is also under investigation for corruption. Livni and Barak were responsible for the humanitarian aid blockade as well as the blatant November 4, 2008 ceasefire violation. Their word means nothing and they've demonstrated a cold blooded and cruel willingness to exterminate hundreds of innocent civilians in exchange for a few votes.

So yes about the only group in the Israel and the occupied territories who has demonstrated honesty and integrity is Hamas. But no, that doesn't mean I like them.
Has the cheese actually fallen so far off your cracker that you can actually say that with a straight face?

Reading it made me laugh out loud!

How can you qualify that view? You don't think highly of Hamas, but you believe virtually all they say?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Hamas said they would not fire any rockets or mortars at Israel and arrest anyone who did. That's exactly what they did until they were attacked by Israel.

Israel said they would not attack Hamas or Gaza and allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza freely. Israel continued to block humanitarain aid from entering Gaza and eventually they launched an unprovoked attack against Hamas, breaking their ceasefire agreement.

At any time Hamas could lie and say, we recognize Israel without meaning it. Instead they refuse to say something they don't mean, even though it means their leaders are detained, tortured and assassinated and millions of Palestinians suffer collective punishment.

Seems pretty clear which side has more integrity and which side can't be trusted.

Please give me an example of Hamas saying one thing and doing another like Israel. I'm not aware of any Hamas leader being charged with corruption, sexual harassement and rape like Israel's leaders...

Israeli ex-president Katsav indicted for rape | International | Reuters

Hands up, everyone who thinks Ehud is even more relentlessly self-interested than Bibi - Full Comment

Meanwhile ticket information regarding GEORGE GALLOWAY: RESISTING WAR FROM GAZA TO KANDAHAR
Toronto Coalition to Stop the War

If its not sold out, I'll probably go to the event in Mississauga on Tuesday.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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That's crazy, EaO.....

Hamas never stopped the rocket fire, and the opening of borders was conditional on that.

Israel struck at Hamas tunnelers.......that is self-defence.

Neither side is completely trustworthy....only individuals are trustworthy, or not.

Israel is us........a western liberal democracy.
Hamas is them.......

We have something worth defending, a civilization that has brought liberty and wealth to billions of people. That includes Israel.

They are medieval madmen, the enemies of liberty.

That simple.

It's a war, pick a side.

You've picked the wrong one.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Had the British never stuck their nose in the region in the first place, we'd likely have a democratic Palestinian state today. According to all historical records, Jews were well-treated in Palestine prior tothe rise of Zionism.

Today most of the fight is over Zionists saying 'God gave it to us' and the Palestinians saying 'You didn't even exist up to a few decades ago. Now give us our land back.'

So who's right?

As for Isreael being a democracy, yes it is. So is Palestine. Maybe we have prejudices against them because their culture is different, but we can't say that because they didn't vote our way that they're not democratic. That's ust not how democracy works. In fact, if we interfere in their democracy, they're likely to vote in even more extreme politicians.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Had the British never stuck their nose in the region in the first place, we'd likely have a democratic Palestinian state today. According to all historical records, Jews were well-treated in Palestine prior tothe rise of Zionism.
Not really, but for the sake of argument, I'll let you slide on that. Only because the rest of your post is pretty damn rational and quite frankly refreshing.
Today most of the fight is over Zionists saying 'God gave it to us' and the Palestinians saying 'You didn't even exist up to a few decades ago. Now give us our land back.'

So who's right?
No one.

As for Isreael being a democracy, yes it is. So is Palestine. Maybe we have prejudices against them because their culture is different, but we can't say that because they didn't vote our way that they're not democratic. That's ust not how democracy works. In fact, if we interfere in their democracy, they're likely to vote in even more extreme politicians.
Maybe we see democracy differently.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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That's crazy, EaO.....

Hamas never stopped the rocket fire, and the opening of borders was conditional on that.

Israel struck at Hamas tunnelers.......that is self-defence.

Neither side is completely trustworthy....only individuals are trustworthy, or not.

Israel is us........a western liberal democracy.
Hamas is them.......

We have something worth defending, a civilization that has brought liberty and wealth to billions of people. That includes Israel.

They are medieval madmen, the enemies of liberty.

That simple.

It's a war, pick a side.

You've picked the wrong one.

There is a third side: innocent civilians on both sides of the conflict. I don't support the Zionist State of Israel or the Muslim Fundamentalist Hamas. They are two sides of the same coin. Both of these sides resort to war crimes to achieve their objectives so I can't in good conscience support either of these sides.

I disagree that Israel is a democracy. Israel isn't even as democratic as Apartheid South Africa:
Jimmy Carter: Israel's 'apartheid' policies worse than South Africa's - Haaretz - Israel News

You know very well Hamas never fired a single rocket or mortar during the ceasefire until they were attacked by Israel. Even Israel admits Hamas didn't fire a single rocket or mortar during the ceasefire:

YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

So you are playing word games. What you reference is the dozen or so rockets fired by the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in defiance of Hamas. That makes those attacks crimes, not ceasefire violations. Hamas would be in violation of the ceasefire if they did not react appropriately to this criminal activity. I'd say arresting those involved is appropriate:

...Hamas arrested three Palestinians who fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, a militant faction said, in the first such detentions since the Islamist group and Israel agreed on a cease-fire last month.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction, said Hamas men pursued its members after the attack and "abducted them" in Jabalya refugee camp...
Hamas arrests Gaza rocket squad after two Qassams hit Negev - Haaretz - Israel News

This group which fired the rockets and mortars at Israel in defiance of Hamas is aligned with former President Abbas (now Dictator of the West Bank) and armed by the US and Israel:

...Egypt transfered a large quantity of arms and ammunition to PA security organizations in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, with Israel's approval.

The Palestinian security forces are largely allied with Abbas, and draw their numbers from his Fatah movement...

...The shipment included 2,000 AK-47 rifles, 20,000 magazines and two million rounds of ammunition. The arms and ammunition were transfered from Egypt to Israel through the Kerem Shalom crossing, in coordination with the Israel Defense Forces and with the government's authorization.

The four trucks carrying the weapons were accompanied by IDF Military Police to the Karni crossing, where they entered the Gaza Strip and were received by PA security personnel....

Israeli defense official: Fatah arms transfer bolsters forces of peace - Haaretz - Israel News

Hmmm... If Hamas never gave the orders to fire those rockets and mortars, then who did? Also I wonder if there were any rockets or mortars in those Israeli arms shipments to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade?

Regardless, Hamas's success at reducing attacks on Israel by 99% should have been reciprocated by an increase in humanitarian aid shipments.

Instead Israel tightened the blockade in response to Hamas's success at eliminating the rocket attacks.





As you can see as the number of attacks decreased, Israel tightened its economic bloackade. So much for your argument that Israel's blockade was tied to the number of rockets and mortars fired at Israel.

Regarding the November 4, 2008 Israeli ceasefire violation:

Israel acknowledges their attacks were ceasefire violations, but they justify them by claiming the tunnel's purpose was offensive. Hamas claims it was a defensive fortification.
Jimmy Carter:
...this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645.html
Both side's claims regarding the tunnel's purpose remain unsubstantiated.

Technically, until Hamas actually used the tunnel in an offensive way or the tunnel actually crossed into Israeli territory, its not a ceasefire violation. Israel's attack on Hamas in Gaza is clearly a ceasefire violation which may or may not have been justified.

Circumstancial evidence indicates Israel was not defending itself and deliberately picked a fight with Hamas in violation of the ceasefire:

Coincidence?: Israel broke the ceasefire the same day Americans elected President Obama. (November 4, 2008 ) That indicates Israel wanted to keep this out of the news. That implies Israel's leaders knew their attack would be a ceasefire violation.

Motivations - Livni never supported the ceasefire and was under pressure to prove she could lead Israel into a decisive military victory after the 2006 Lebanon fiasco:
27/08/2008 Mofaz: I can make fateful decisions, Livni can't

...Mofaz said "I ask today: Who would you want making decisions regarding the significant questions that stand on the agenda of this area and other areas in Israel? And especially here in Kiryat Shmona, the city which has absorbed the most missiles. I can. She can't," Mofaz said without mentioning Tzipi Livni's name.

Mofaz also said that the crucial question facing voters is, "Who will they vote for? a strong leader who is capable of making the right decisions and leading Israel and the region in the right way or a weak leader that has no experiences or the ability to make these decisions."...

Mofaz: I can make fateful decisions, Livni can't - Haaretz - Israel News
September 25, 2008
The New Face of Israel?

...Livni has a maximum of forty-two days to convince a majority of the Knesset to support the coalition government she hopes to lead. In other words, Livni’s deadline falls tantalizingly on November 3—the eve of you know what...

...Livni has not been a supporter of the ceasefire with Hamas...

The New Face of Israel? - The Atlantic (September 25, 2008)

That's a lot of death and destruction, just for a politician to increase their election chances.

Actions:
Jan 9, 2009(IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement...

...Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza...

...The interest of Hamas in a ceasefire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting -- five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive -- by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by Y-net News agency as saying.

Israel's rejection of the Hamas December proposal reflected its preference for maintaining Israel's primary leverage over Hamas and the Palestinian population of Gaza -- its ability to choke off food and goods required for the viability of its economy -- even at the cost of continued Palestinian rocket attacks....

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

"Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce".

Since a truce didn't happen, that implies Israel was not interested in a truce.


Israel could have resumed the ceasefire at anytime after they re-ignited the conflict. All they had to do was respect the ceaefire's original terms, which they never met.

The evidence supports that argument that Israel's leaders deliberately broke the ceasefire for political reasons related to February 2009 elections.
 
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Cannuck

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Feb 2, 2006
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gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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''Hamas took sole power in gaza by eliminating opposition........''

Actually, that's what the Contras did in Central America with the support they got from Reagan and McCain. But that did not stop your Canucklehead government from allowing McCain to enter your borders.

if you allow entry to McCain, then you have to allow Galloway.
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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''many Jews oppose the state of Israel''


The Bible clearly states that only the Messiah can reestablish the Kingdom of Israel. Anything else is counterfeit.

Therefore, there is no Biblical basis for zionism as shown in the many Biblical verses that I have posted on this forum previously.